Lapham on WRs

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-10-2016, 01:31 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Are you really trying to argue that the Cincinnati model is better than Denver?  They went to two Super Bowls in three years, completely remaking their defense after the first loss, and now have another trophy to add to their case.  Meanwhile, the Bengals have not had a single playoff victory in almost three decades,

No one who is on the pro free agency side is arguing to "blow anything up" or to bring in the highest price guy every year.  What is being said is that the addition of quality free agents to supplement a team built through the draft can work well.  Denver brought in free agents, New England the year before that, Seattle the year prior.  It is not a difficult concept to understand.

I get that. Michael Johnson was a pretty big free agent addition last year. Without him we arent the same D. AJ Hawk wasnt much. But neither was just about every other free agent LB that signed last year. Who is it that we could have signed that would have changed the last 2 minutes of our playoff game last year? What WR that is out there now will fix our ails? 

We had something like 13 free agents this year. Step 1 is retaining our guys. 

Poeple act like if we arent getting Peyton mannings and darrelle revis and talib like free agents we arent trying. We make free agency moves. Just because they arent big name guys or record setting contracts doesnt mean they dont contribute to our success.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-10-2016, 01:54 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I get that. Michael Johnson was a pretty big free agent addition last year. Without him we arent the same D. AJ Hawk wasnt much. But neither was just about every other free agent LB that signed last year. Who is it that we could have signed that would have changed the last 2 minutes of our playoff game last year? What WR that is out there now will fix our ails? 

We had something like 13 free agents this year. Step 1 is retaining our guys. 

Poeple act like if we arent getting Peyton mannings and darrelle revis and talib like free agents we arent trying. We make free agency moves. Just because they arent big name guys or record setting contracts doesnt mean they dont contribute to our success.

Michael Johnson was not a big name free agent addition anywhere other than within the Bengals fan base.  Was he a solid signing and was I glad to have him back?  Yes.  Was he a "big free agent addition"?  No, he was not.  He had gone to Tampa and had fallen flat on his face for the most part, so the Bengals were able to get him back at a reduced rate.  Smart business?  Yes, but what about 2014 when the line was absolutely terrible and had 20 sacks for the entire season?  Do you think him failing in Tampa and then coming back at a reduced rate was part of some genius plan or, more likely, that they just got lucky?

And no one is talking just about this year, we are talking about the philosophy in general.  The list of people who could have helped this team over the last few years is long.  At some point this team has to develop a "win now" mentality.  Always looking towards the future has gotten them nothing to this point.  We can all take pride in the fact that they are not the abysmal team of the 90's, and that is something, but it is not the summit of success either.  Dalton will be 29 next year, Green 28, Atkins 28, Dunlap 27, Whitworth very close to retirement.  While not "old", the core of this team is rapidly approaching the second half of their NFL careers.  It is not the time to look towards what might happen in the future, it is time to really commit.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 02:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote:  The list of people who could have helped this team over the last few years is long. 

So is the list of free agent flops who would have cost the bengals more money.

This argument is pointless.  You will list free agents who have worked out.  I will list ones that have failed.  

[McC]

(03-09-2016, 08:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: According to him, don't look for any UFA to be signed. The only chance they'll get one in FA is if he's someone who's been released because they want the compensatory picks.

Which is pretty much exactly what I didn't want to hear, but almost exactly what I expected to hear after I they said that they budgeted $15m out of a possible $39m+ for free agency. I really don't understand what their hardon for comp picks are.

Yeah, I don't know how much I'll believe Lap from now on.  This nugget seems like a no brainer that most anyone could deduce.

But Lap called Iloka all but gone and look how wrong he was on that one.  Big cred hit on that, if you ask me.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 02:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote:   At some point this team has to develop a "win now" mentality.

It is not the time to look towards what might happen in the future, it is time to really commit.

I have seen two different commentators recently (One was Herm Edwards, I don't remember who the other guy was) talking about why the coach should not be the GM.  They both said coaches get too desperate to "win now" and make bad choices.  The GM needs to be there to balance out what is on the best interest of the team.

Lots of draft picks flop, but so do lots of free agents.  The difference is that free agents cost a lot more money.

[tigerseye]

Kumerow looked good to me. I don't think losing these guys is cripling to the O. O is going to be really good.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-10-2016, 02:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Michael Johnson was not a big name free agent addition anywhere other than within the Bengals fan base.  Was he a solid signing and was I glad to have him back?  Yes.  Was he a "big free agent addition"?  No, he was not.  He had gone to Tampa and had fallen flat on his face for the most part, so the Bengals were able to get him back at a reduced rate.  Smart business?  Yes, but what about 2014 when the line was absolutely terrible and had 20 sacks for the entire season?  Do you think him failing in Tampa and then coming back at a reduced rate was part of some genius plan or, more likely, that they just got lucky?

And no one is talking just about this year, we are talking about the philosophy in general.  The list of people who could have helped this team over the last few years is long.  At some point this team has to develop a "win now" mentality.  Always looking towards the future has gotten them nothing to this point.  We can all take pride in the fact that they are not the abysmal team of the 90's, and that is something, but it is not the summit of success either.  Dalton will be 29 next year, Green 28, Atkins 28, Dunlap 27, Whitworth very close to retirement.  While not "old", the core of this team is rapidly approaching the second half of their NFL careers.  It is not the time to look towards what might happen in the future, it is time to really commit.

Bengals had a hole. Our Dline shit it up in 2014. We went out and signed a free agent to fix our problem. The problem was fixed. Crazy thing is the guy was one of the gems of the 2014 free agent class. 

But that doesnt count... K cool.

[Wes Mantooth]

I thought I made my argument pretty simple, but as usual it seems the conversation has gotten off track.

-I believe we now need WR help. (Seems pretty obvious to me)

-I think a veteran WR (Think Nate Washington, or someone similar, at around 2-4 mil on short deal) is a better option than a late 3rd round rookie for this season.

-Even with a WR taken earlier, I still think we can use some veteran depth.

-I'm willing to sacrifice said compensatory pick (later 3rd rounder) to bring in a veteran than can help and provide depth immediately.

-I think we can afford the small price tag (2-4 mil).

-I have a hard time understanding valuing compensatory picks, which we've used to draft turd after turd, so much, to the point that you'll ignore immediate needs.

Now if you disagree with any of this, then more power to you. But please try to debate these things, as this is what I was arguing.

I don't need to see them go crazy. I'm not even sure I would call it urgency, as we're talking about such small amounts of money. All I question is why, when we have the ability to win now, we're ignoring needs to hoard compensatory picks, who may never help, and if they do, will most likely be years down the road.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-10-2016, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This argument is pointless.  You will list free agents who have worked out.  I will list ones that have failed.  

Yet every single recent Superbowl winner prominently featured players bought in from outside the organization.  While the flip side of that approach, specifically our conservative approach, has resulted in a 26 year playoff win drought.

Yeah, we shouldn't change a single thing.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-10-2016, 03:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I thought I made my argument pretty simple, but as usual it seems the conversation has gotten off track.

-I believe we now need WR help. (Seems pretty obvious to me)  

-I think a veteran WR (Think Nate Washington, or someone similar, at around 2-4 mil on  short deal) is a better option than a late 3rd round rookie for this season.

-Even with a WR taken earlier, I still think we can use some veteran depth.

-I'm willing to sacrifice said compensatory pick (later 3rd rounder) to bring in a veteran than can help and provide depth immediately.

-I think we can afford the small price tag (2-4 mil).

-I have a hard time understanding valuing compensatory picks, which we've used to draft turd after turd, so much, to the point that you'll ignore immediate needs.

Now if you disagree with any of this, then more power to you.  But please try to debate these things, as this is what I was arguing.

I don't need to see them go crazy.  I'm not even sure I would call it urgency, as we're talking about such small amounts of money.  All I question is why, when we have the ability to win now, we're ignoring needs to hoard compensatory picks, who may never help, and if they do, will most likely be years down the road.

So you would trade a 3rd or 4th round pick for Nate Washington.some thinks its a bad trade.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 03:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Yet every single recent Superbowl winner prominently featured players bought in from outside the organization.  While the flip side of that approach, specifically our conservative approach, has resulted in a 26 year playoff win drought.

Yeah, we shouldn't change a single thing.

Your logic still fails.

The Bengals are doing better than most teams that spend larege amounts of money on free agents from outside the team.

Plus Bengals have had significant contributions from playeres brought in from outside the team.  Where would our defense have been last year without Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Michael Johnson, and wallace Gilberry.

You Have no point.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 03:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: -I'm willing to sacrifice said compensatory pick (later 3rd rounder) to bring in a veteran than can help and provide depth immediately.

But why give up an extra pick when you can still get a guy who has just as much chance of helping the team?

(03-10-2016, 03:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: -I have a hard time understanding valuing compensatory picks, which we've used to draft turd after turd, so much, to the point that you'll ignore immediate needs.

Draft picks are important.  I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this.  We have built the core of our team through the draft.  

And the team does not ignore a need to get a pick.  All they do is sign a guy who was released instead of a guy who played out his contract to become a free agent.

[tigerseye]

The Bengals seem to have alot of confidence in their ability to draft as of late ,so any draft pick in the first probably 4 rounds in considered gold to them. Those picks are going no where.

A vet WR sounds good but any of them worth anything is getting way more than the Bengals are willing to pony up.

Only way they get one of those guys is if they take a big discount to play for a SB ring because that is the position the Bengals are in right now.

Maybe a guy thats already ridiculously rich. i.e. Boldin ,Wallace, or whoever

My 2c

[Luvnit2]

I guess I am miffed as I see as of right now, not one, but multiple compensary picks in 2017 based on the huge signings of Jones (8 million a year) and Sanu (6 million  year)

My point being it is not over and we have a few others like A. Smith or Leon Hall or Reggie Nelson all of whom could get big contracts. One 2 million dollar signing (like vet WR) will not negate 2 high end signings and the compensation we receive that significantly

[Bengalbug]

(03-10-2016, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But why give up an extra pick when you can still get a guy who has just as much chance of helping the team?



Draft picks are important.  I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this.  We have built the core of our team throiugh the draft.  

And the team does not ignore a need to get a pick.  All they do is sign a guy who was released instead of a guy who played out his contract to become an free agent.

I disagree...  By only going after FA who are cut you are severely limiting the pool of players to pick from.  For example, if the bengals wanted to upgrade DT there are a couple options but they were not cut (fairly, knighton as an example) 

Similarly players who fill out their contracts and become
uFA are typically better players than ones that are cut. players who are cut are usually cut for a reason, players who fulfill contracts are probably more
Sought after- I do not have the stats to back it up.

Outside of the packer and bengals can you name another successful team who lives by our philosophy? Maybe the steelers?  But even they go out and fill needs with FA and don't worry about comp picks when necessary (Ladarius green, Ryan Clark to name some examples)

Right now we have a clear need at the WR position and a comp pick is a bad reason to not go after a prospect. I understand not overpaying, a comp pick?) at best it's going to be a late 3rd but more likely a late 4th.  Said player won't even be able to contribute right away (more often than not). Let's say the bengals draft a reciever in round 2 and a Corner in round 4 with our comp pick.  Would they make a bigger impact than Reuben randle and still getting a reciever in the 2nd? 

It's a bad example bc all the WR left are same whether cut it not, but if you can get a good talent at a good price comp picks are the last thing to be considered on what should be a win now team.  

[Essex Johnson]

(03-10-2016, 03:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I thought I made my argument pretty simple, but as usual it seems the conversation has gotten off track.

-I believe we now need WR help. (Seems pretty obvious to me)  

-I think a veteran WR (Think Nate Washington, or someone similar, at around 2-4 mil on  short deal) is a better option than a late 3rd round rookie for this season.

-Even with a WR taken earlier, I still think we can use some veteran depth.

-I'm willing to sacrifice said compensatory pick (later 3rd rounder) to bring in a veteran than can help and provide depth immediately.

-I think we can afford the small price tag (2-4 mil).

-I have a hard time understanding valuing compensatory picks, which we've used to draft turd after turd, so much, to the point that you'll ignore immediate needs.

Now if you disagree with any of this, then more power to you.  But please try to debate these things, as this is what I was arguing.

I don't need to see them go crazy.  I'm not even sure I would call it urgency, as we're talking about such small amounts of money.  All I question is why, when we have the ability to win now, we're ignoring needs to hoard compensatory picks, who may never help, and if they do, will most likely be years down the road.

We already have our #2 WR in Eiffert.. he will move outside even more.. that is why we drafted two TE's last year.. they probably knew Sanu woiuld be gone and/or Jones... 

They will draft a WR.. that is how Sanu and Jones are their start.. and look where they are now.. so pretty good draft when they both leave for 7 to 8 million a year.   We have other weapons with Bernard, Birkhead to help out in WR.. Alford is the one I hope can help us with the deep ball. 

I believe we were worse off if we lost George and Jones so I am glad we signed them.. we can overcome Jones and Sanu

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-10-2016, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So is the list of free agent flops who would have cost the bengals more money.

This argument is pointless.  You will list free agents who have worked out.  I will list ones that have failed.  

Honestly Fred, you just like to argue.  There are times that you like to argue both sides of the same conversation.  It comes down to the ability to evaluate talent and best determine who will fit within the organization.  That can be in the draft or it can be through free agency.

You bring up the coach needing to have a "win now" mentality and how that is not good for the organization.  Well this General Manager is going on three decades without a single playoff victory.  So good to see that he is definitely on the long term plan.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 06:04 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Outside of the packer and bengals can you name another successful team who lives by our philosophy? Maybe the steelers?  But even they go out and fill needs with FA and don't worry about comp picks when necessary (Ladarius green, Ryan Clark to name some examples)

I think we had the talent to win it all last year until Dalton got injured.

I don't think being tight with their money cost them a playoff win last year.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 06:42 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You bring up the coach needing to have a "win now" mentality and how that is not good for the organization.  Well this General Manager is going on three decades without a single playoff victory.  So good to see that he is definitely on the long term plan.

I understand exactly what your opinion is.  I just cited a couple of experts who said you were wrong.

I don't see how anyone can blame our playoff loss last year on a mistake in free agency.

[Bengalbug]

(03-10-2016, 06:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think we had the talent to win it all last year until Dalton got injured.

I don't think being tight with their money cost them a playoff win last year.

I don't either but we didn't have this big of a need either did we? 

We could argue linebacker.. But that was temporary while burfict got healthy.  

Also this isn't about being cheap, this is about overvaluing a comp pick and undervaluing veteran and more importantly their leadership.