Thoughts on Dre K ?

[*bfine32*]

The team is better with Dre K than they are without him. WTS, he should not be a priority signing this off-season. I'd put him about #5 in priority of signing our DBs alone.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-16-2015, 12:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The differential in overall production though, is huge. 1,060 yards to 666 yards.

If you look at every time Gio has gotten at least 20 touches in a game in his career (7 times) he has gotten at least 100 yards in all but one of them. If you look at the two games he's gotten at least 20 carries, he has a total of 47 carries/213 yards (4.5ypc)/1 TD and 8 catches/95 yards (11.9ypc) in them. So when he gets at least 20 carries, he's averaging 154 total yards a game. How is that wearing down?

I think his whole wearing down thing is vastly overplayed. He didn't get hurt last year because of wearing down, he got hurt because of some plays/throws that hung him out to dry in the flats. He's not tiny or anything.. he's 5'9, 205.

Matt Forte has made a career at 6'2, 215.
Jamaal Charles is 5'11, 199 and holds the NFL career YPC record last I heard.
LeSean McCoy is 5'11, 208.
DeMarco Murray led the NFL in rushing last year at 6'0, 217.

It's over the course of the season. His production dropped. 
In December his numbers are terrible outside of one major outlying game.
5 of 9 games in December he averaged less than 2 YPC
If you average them out, in December he averages 3.8 YPC (4.4 is career average total)
And if you remove the one statistical outlying game it drops to 3.2 YPC.

I never made mention of his size. He's not the player Forte, Charles, McCoy or Murray are/were.
He's more Brian Westbrook who only ever had 200+ carries three times. Ages 27, 28 and 29. After that, Westbrook would only carry the ball 138 more times the next two years before retiring. There's no shame in that. But he just isn't those guys. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-16-2015, 01:57 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The team is better with Dre K than they are without him. WTS, he should not be a priority signing this off-season. I'd put him about #5 in priority of signing our DBs alone.

He's not a FA after this year though. He has a 5th year option they picked up for $7.5m.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/28/report-bengals-exercise-2016-options-on-dre-kirkpatrick-kevin-zeitler-contracts/

[Se ky bengal]

(12-15-2015, 10:36 PM)PApinhead Wrote: You pretty much hit the nail on the head.  At least for me.  He might not be horrible, but he is far from the first round pick that he should.  Maybe he'll get there, but I don't know.  I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I don't think we should get rid of him, we should keep him around as a backup, but I do think we need to think about another starting CB.

Some have mentioned Dre is not a very good tackler.  I tend to agree with them as it seems that he does whiff quite often or can't make the tackle.  I maybe just remembering the bad or missed tackles more than the good ones though as poor tackling is one of my pet peeves.

I guess to sum it up, I'm not ready to completely write him off yet.  I think he can still contribute to the team, but I am disappointed in his level of play for where we drafted him.

 And the penalties,they come at worse times. 

[Se ky bengal]

(12-16-2015, 12:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The differential in overall production though, is huge. 1,060 yards to 666 yards.

If you look at every time Gio has gotten at least 20 touches in a game in his career (7 times) he has gotten at least 100 yards in all but one of them. If you look at the two games he's gotten at least 20 carries, he has a total of 47 carries/213 yards (4.5ypc)/1 TD and 8 catches/95 yards (11.9ypc) in them. So when he gets at least 20 carries, he's averaging 154 total yards a game. How is that wearing down?

I think his whole wearing down thing is vastly overplayed. He didn't get hurt last year because of wearing down, he got hurt because of some plays/throws that hung him out to dry in the flats. He's not tiny or anything.. he's 5'9, 205.

Matt Forte has made a career at 6'2, 215.
Jamaal Charles is 5'11, 199 and holds the NFL career YPC record last I heard.
LeSean McCoy is 5'11, 208.
DeMarco Murray led the NFL in rushing last year at 6'0, 217.

127 carries for 660 yards,40 for 414 receiving yards. Them numbers you posted are all purpose yards. hill 169 carries for 604 yards, 11 receptions for 64 yards. 

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/playercard?playerId=15826&src=desktop

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2015, 09:01 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  Other teams PICK ON HIM AND IT WORKS. That says it all to me.

NO IT DOES NOT WORK.  The Bnegals have one of the best pass defenses in the league.  If it worked to pick on Kirkpatrick then we would not be #1 in the league in fewest completions of 20+ yards, #4 in fewest passing tds, #4 is pass efficiency rating, and #4 in fewest 40+ yard completions.

This is another case of people seeing Bengals make mistakes and claiming that other players in the league do not make the exact same mistakes.

[JonasNJ]

Dre might not be an All Pro, at least not yet.

However, i think he is doing okay. He might give up a play now and then. But overall i think he is okay.
I say give him a contract now. I am thinking 3-4 years at 3-4mill / year. With very limited guaranteed money.

This gives the team a great chance to evaluate one more year. And a chance to sign a CB for a fair contract.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-16-2015, 12:30 PM)Se ky bengal Wrote: 127 carries for 660 yards,40 for 414 receiving yards. Them numbers you posted are all purpose yards. hill 169 carries for 604 yards, 11 receptions for 64 yards. 

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/playercard?playerId=15826&src=desktop

He brought up the point of touches, not carries.

(12-15-2015, 10:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Because Gio has shown he wears down with too many carries. 
The differential in overall touches is small. Less than 20. 

So why wouldn't I talk about both rushing and receiving? Otherwise I would have said it was a difference of Bernard getting 42 less carries but still managing 56 more yards if we were talking about just rushes, which is still awful for Hill. There's no way to spin the numbers to make it seem like Hill isn't awful compared to Bernard this season.

[Se ky bengal]

(12-16-2015, 06:53 PM)The TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He brought up the point of touches, not carries.




So why wouldn't I talk about both rushing and receiving? Otherwise I would have said it was a difference of Bernard getting 42 less carries but still managing 56 more yards if we were talking about just rushes, which is still awful for Hill. There's no way to spin the numbers to make it seem like Hill isn't awful compared to Bernard this season.

Spin? Just put their total numbers up. How is that spinning? You've got it twisted buddy, I'm gio all the way. 

[Se ky bengal]

I see what you done. You put both totals up. Hills running yards to total yards are so close, I thought they were same. I'm for gio taking most snaps,as the way their playing.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-16-2015, 12:41 PM)JonasNJ Wrote: Dre might not be an All Pro, at least not yet.

However, i think he is doing okay. He might give up a play now and then. But overall i think he is okay.
I say give him a contract now. I am thinking 3-4 years at 3-4mill / year. With very limited guaranteed money.

This gives the team a great chance to evaluate one more year. And a chance to sign a CB for a fair contract.

Except people keep forgetting he's not a FA after this season and he won't take a $3-4m/yr deal because the Bengals already picked up his 5th year option for $7.5m when they also picked up Zeitler's $8m 5th year option back in like May I think.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-16-2015, 07:02 PM)Se ky bengal Wrote: I see what you done. You put both totals up. Hills running yards to total yards are so close, I thought they were same. I'm for gio taking most snaps,as the way their playing.

Ah, okay. Lol.. gotta love those misunderstandings where we're both arguing the same thing without realizing it.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-16-2015, 07:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except people keep forgetting he's not a FA after this season and he won't take a $3-4m/yr deal because the Bengals already picked up his 5th year option for $7.5m when they also picked up Zeitler's $8m 5th year option back in like May I think.

That article you linked to says they can opt out of it if they choose to do so.

They may renegotiate according to current market value.  I'm not sure.  Is he even worth $7.5 ?

"Albert Breer of NFL Media reports that the team has exercised their options on the contracts of cornerback Dre Kirkpatrick and guard Kevin Zeitler for the 2016 season. Both options are guaranteed against injury only and the Bengals could opt to withdraw the options before the start of the new league year."

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-16-2015, 09:32 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That article you linked to says they can opt out of it if they choose to do so.

They may renegotiate according to current market value.  I'm not sure.  Is he even worth $7.5 ?

"Albert Breer of NFL Media reports that the team has exercised their options on the contracts of cornerback Dre Kirkpatrick and guard Kevin Zeitler for the 2016 season. Both options are guaranteed against injury only and the Bengals could opt to withdraw the options before the start of the new league year."

Sure they can opt out of it, but will he be happy that the Bengals declined to pay him $7.5m and then offer him 3yr/$9-12m like some people on here are suggesting? Guy thinks he's going to be one of the best CBs in the league (lol), so I doubt it.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-16-2015, 09:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure they can opt out of it, but will he be happy that the Bengals declined to pay him $7.5m and then offer him 3yr/$9-12m like some people on here are suggesting? Guy thinks he's going to be one of the best CBs in the league (lol), so I doubt it.

We shall just have to see how this season/post season pans out.

A few choice plays in those games could definitely flip the script for him in these parts.

I think he has an upside.  He has speed. 

His downside is he takes chances and the penalties.  No interceptions so far this season.(He has a chance with San Fran/Baltimore games)

True Dre has a huge mouth and ego.  That seems to be the norm of the majority of CBs in the league.

Guys like Hall(even Newman when he was here)are more of anomaly. 

There is no excuse to not look at options.  If there are any...  if not, keep who you have and go from there.

I think most people are just worried about Hall/Jones getting older which is understandable. 

It doesn't mean you can't draft or get a FA that may be more serviceable or capable for that starting spot. 

It all depends on value IMO with Dre.  I don't hate on the guy.  His individual play when I watch him doesn't seem impressive.  Perhaps my eyes deceive me though. lol

As far as the overall ranking of pass defense numbers most would have to admit the level of play of the D-line has dramatically improved.

[jeremydc]

He's serviceable . Can't really ask for more at the moment.

[fredtoast]

(12-16-2015, 10:33 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: As far as the overall ranking of pass defense numbers most would have to admit the level of play of the D-line has dramatically improved.

Amazing fact about our DBs and coaches.    Last year when we were dead last in sacks our pass defense was still elite,  We finished #3 in pass efficiency, #3 in fewest passing tds, and #5 in fewest passes of 40+ yards.

[Se ky bengal]

(12-13-2015, 11:57 PM)LebanonFan Wrote: Sheesh, I must not be watching the same games.  He's not Richard Seymour, but he is a solid NFL starter

Jane Seymour? I joke ,I joke. I know who you talking bout 

[Se ky bengal]

(12-15-2015, 01:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He doesn't get burt that much.

Every CB in the league gets burnt at times.  Unless you want to pay $10+ million a year for a top 5 CB to replace Kirkpatrick then you are going to see our DBs ive up some deep completions.

Fred I respectfully have to disagree, I usually agree with most Of your post. Dre is always 4-6 steps behind and draws quite a few penalties. some are unwarranted,but most is because he's to handsy. hardly ever looking for the ball. just my opinion 

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 11:33 AM)Se ky bengal Wrote: Fred I respectfully have to disagree, I usually agree with most Of your post. Dre is always 4-6 steps behind and draws quite a few penalties. some are unwarranted,but most is because he's to handsy. hardly ever looking for the ball. just my opinion 

Your opinion defies reality.  If he was always 4-6 step behind the receiver then we would give up tons of long pass plays.  Yet we finished NUMBER ONE in the league in fewest pass plays allowed of 20+ yards and #4 in fewest 40+ yard completions allowed.