A few questions to ponder

[CornerBlitz]

So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

orly? 

[PApinhead]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

I'll give this a try. 

1.  I think Dalton deserves some of the blame as he is the QB and is responsible for his play for the most part.  However, I blame Marvin and his staff as they continually show they do not know how to prepare the team and plan for a playoff game.

2.  I do not think he is improving as a QB and I feel a lot of that is due to the coaching.  However, that leads to the next question,

3.  I am not confident in Dalton being able to take us to the Super Bowl one day unless we get some new coaches.  I don't think he will ever be a great QB, but he could be good enough to get us there with the right coaching.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. The QB, Coach, Defense and FO should all be blamed for the playoff losses. 

2. He was improving just fine (considering "what he is") until the wheels fell off last year (injuries). He's capable of taking the talent on this team far as long as he can get out of his own way, stop turning the ball over and allow the skill players on this team to do their thing.

3. See the last sentence of #2.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. I think we easily blame both at this point. Marvin hasn't done it BD or AD. Andy hasn't shown any sort of innate ability to overcome that yet, so yes both are blameable. I think blaming Dalton was acceptable after the Chargers loss. Can't exactly point to him for the Colts loss, but any other sort of non injury scenario, we definitely blame him. Also, it would be easier to blame him if he didn't have some of his best games in the Pittsburg and NE losses. Those 2 games still give a little sliver of hope in his future.

2. Improved on some things and regressed in others, but the results are the same. I would like to say yes, but last year showed no.

3. confident is a strong word. I'm cautiously hopeful? haha. I think that is just the nature of a Bengal fan.

[fredtoast]

(07-04-2015, 02:49 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 1. The QB, Coach, Defense and FO should all be blamed for the playoff losses. 

2. He was improving just fine (considering "what he is") until the wheels fell off last year (injuries). He's capable of taking the talent on this team far as long as he can get out of his own way, stop turning the ball over and allow the skill players on this team to do their thing.

3. See the last sentence of #2.

Wow, these are almost exactly the same as my answers.

1. Everyone shares the blame for losing the playoff games. Even Mike Zimmer's great defenses did not play well in the postseason.

2. Dalton was improving every year until he lost most of he receiving corps and had to work with a new OC last season.

3. Dalton has been good enough to beat the Patriots, Colts, Packers, Stealers, and other top teams so i don't know why he shouldn't be good enough to take us to a Super Bowl. Four games is actually a pretty small sample. There are lots of QBs who have had 4 bad games in the middle of a very good season.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 03:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wow, these are almost exactly the same as my answers.

I will, and have, blasted on the QB--giving him more blame than necessary--in the past but that's usually in the heat of the moment. When you calm down, you see there is more than enough blame to go around. Dalton has shown plenty of flashes that show he's able and the FO has assembled a team that's more than capable of a deep playoff run. Next time they're in the playoffs, i just hope they're able to say "eff it" and go out there without the stigma of so many consecutive playoff losses and allow their talent to win a game or 3. Their mentality seems to be the only thing holding them back.

[PDub80]

How on Earth do you guys see AD as improving over the years? It's slight at best. Regular season... about the same or worse (he's streaky). Playoffs.... stinks, so that is the same.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

What the hell do you see that I do not? I watch every game. He has good games and he has God awful ones. Just embarrassingly bad. He has bad games or OK games more often then good or great ones.

- The "new OC" excuse is asinine and completely lame. Hugh Jackson was the promoted OC, a position he has held with several teams over the years but it was announced as soon as the hiring took place that they were absolutely, positively, NOT changing the offense around. Last year they ran the same offense Jay Gruden implemented. No significant changes. To point to that as a factor for AD's play is silly and shows a total lack of paying attention.

Fred....

Your statements are misleading.

- AD is 2-6 against the Steelers. To name them as a team he's "beaten" is misleading as he has been beaten like a drum by Pittsburgh more often than not.
- AD is 1-1 against NE and in the game he "won" he had 200 yards and an INT. He did complete a high %, so... in the case they play NE when it counts I'll hope he can pull that miracle off again.
- He's 1-1 against Andrew Luck's Colts, 0-1 when it counts. AD's rookie year the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.
- He's 4-4 against the Ravens.
- He's beaten the Packers the 1 time they played. AD was pretty good there.

Yeah, sure, he's won some games, but not consistently against good teams or in the spotlight. Why on Earth do people keep banging the drum that he's anything but an OK, serviceable guy and think that the Bengals can't or shouldn't try to do better? Does hope make you feel that much better? Maybe you think the power of positive thinking will take over? Maybe the expectations are still so low?

Here is a list of Superbowl QBs. http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97
AD is better than Rex Grossman, similar to Brad Johnson (but without the arm), Capernick is up and down (but I would take him over AD). He's not even close to a Jake Delhomme, to be honest. Go back even further and you're looking at Dilfer and O'Donnell. That is basically it and those guys did it in an era where the running game was the major focus of their teams.

No way, no how does the AD of the past 4 seasons win a playoff game this year. He has to get much much better. Can anyone who actually watches the games show me how he has shown significant improvement?

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 04:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: How on Earth do you guys see AD as improving over the years? It's slight at best. Regular season... about the same or worse (he's streaky). Playoffs.... stinks, so that is the same.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

What the hell do you see that I do not? I watch every game. He has good games and he has God awful ones. Just embarrassingly bad. He has bad games or OK games more often then good or great ones.

- The "new OC" excuse is asinine and completely lame.  Hugh Jackson was the promoted OC, a position he has held with several teams over the years but it was announced as soon as the hiring took place that they were absolutely, positively, NOT changing the offense around. Last year they ran the same offense Jay Gruden implemented. No significant changes. To point to that as a factor for AD's play is silly and shows a total lack of paying attention.

Fred....

Maybe less time on message boards and more time watching the games and following the team?

- AD is 2-6 against the Steelers. To name them as a team he's "beaten" is misleading as he has been beaten like a drum by Pittsburgh more often than not.
- AD is 1-1 against NE and in the game he "won" he had 200 yards and an INT. He did complete a high %, so... in the case they play NE when it counts I'll hope he can pull that miracle off again.
- He's 1-1 against Andrew Luck's Colts, 0-1 when it counts. AD's rookie year the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.
- He's 4-4 against the Ravens.
- He's beaten the Packers the 1 time they played. AD was pretty good there.

Yeah, sure, he's won some games, but not consistently against good teams or in the spotlight. Why on Earth do people keep banging the drum that he's anything but an OK, serviceable guy and think that the Bengals can't or shouldn't try to do better? Does hope make you feel that much better? Maybe you think the power of positive thinking will take over? Maybe the expectations are still so low?

Here is a list of Superbowl QBs.  http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97
AD is better than Rex Grossman, similar to Brad Johnson (but without the arm), Capernick is up and down (but I would take him over AD). He's not even close to a Jake Delhomme, to be honest. Go back even further and you're looking at Dilfer and O'Donnell. That is basically it and those guys did it in an era where the running game was the major focus of their teams.

No way, no how does the AD of the past 4 seasons win a playoff game this year. He has to get much much better. Can anyone who actually watches the games show me how he has shown significant improvement?

He's been super sucky in playoffs, prime time and for the most part, against Pitt and early Balt. Overall, 3 years of increased att, comp, ypa, td and QB rating show improvement. Last year was a dump as he wasn't able to overcome the injury bug that hit the skill players. Turnovers have been his achilles heel. Before last year i said the 2 things he needed to do most were increase his comp% and cut down on ints. He was able to get his comp% up and he cut down on ints the first half of the year before resorting to giving the ball away in the 2nd half of the year (first 8 games- 6 ints. second 8 games- 11 ints).

Physical ability isn't nearly the concern that the prime time yips are. He needs to fix his brain in order to get over the hump in those "important" games. 

[CornerBlitz]

(07-04-2015, 02:24 PM)PApinhead Wrote: I'll give this a try. 

1.  I think Dalton deserve some of the blame as he is the QB and is responsible for his play for the most part.  However, I blame Marvin and his staff as they continually show they do not know how to prepare the team and plan for a playoff game.

2.  I do not think he is improving as a QB and I feel a lot of that is due to the coaching.  However, that leads to the next question,

3.  I am not confident in Dalton being able to take us to the Super Bowl one day unless we get some new coaches.  I don't think he will ever be a great QB, but he could be good enough to get us there with the right coaching.

So Dalton is not improving because of Marvin Lewis? Could you please elaborate on that. What is Marvin doing that is keeping Dalton from improving? Also, what can the coach do to help him improve?

As far as in-game coaching, Lewis is not very good and probably his biggest negative in my eyes. It's almost as if he gets nervous when things don't go according to plan...I've seen him sweat out things like when to call a timeout or when to throw the challenge flag. He seems unsure of himself.

[Joe Pong]

(07-04-2015, 04:44 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So Dalton is not improving because of Marvin Lewis? Could you please elaborate on that. What is Marvin doing that is keeping Dalton from improving? Also, what can the coach do to help him improve?

As far as in-game coaching, Lewis is not very good and probably his biggest negative in my eyes. It's almost as if he gets nervous when things don't go according to plan...I've seen him sweat out things like when to call a timeout or when to throw the challenge flag. He seems unsure of himself.

Why do people act like this is such a complicated question. Place blame on the QB when it's his fault, and place blame on others when it's their fault.

The national TV game last year against the Browns, Dalton played poorly. Majority of the playoff games, guys around Dalton have been awful, and he had very little chance to be successful. Second half of the San Diego game, he was getting destroyed, had no time at all to throw, and the chargers were just pinning their ears back and coming after him. The one thing that was his fault was the fumble he had.

Two playoff games against Houston, the Texans were the far superior team. We were the last seed in the playoffs playing in a dome on the road in an extremely loud hostile environment with a rookie QB, then a second year QB, against a dominant pass rush.

[Tim_B]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. When Dalton plays bad you can blame him, but if other people play bad you have to give them their equal due.

2. Yes, Every year I feel that he has improved.

3. I think that the Bengals will be able to win a Super Bowl with Dalton as the QB.

I don't see why people give Dalton so much crap. Obviously he's not amazing, but everyone knows what he is. The strong point of the team isn't the QB position, so why not get upset with what we consider the strong point of the team when they play like crap? Even if we get a great QB, and our team plays like it does in the playoffs I would have my doubts if we win that game.

[Junglejuice]

A CB Dalton thread?

How cutting edge!

[PApinhead]

(07-04-2015, 04:44 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So Dalton is not improving because of Marvin Lewis? Could you please elaborate on that. What is Marvin doing that is keeping Dalton from improving? Also, what can the coach do to help him improve?

As far as in-game coaching, Lewis is not very good and probably his biggest negative in my eyes. It's almost as if he gets nervous when things don't go according to plan...I've seen him sweat out things like when to call a timeout or when to throw the challenge flag. He seems unsure of himself.

He is the head coach and is responsible for the development of his team and for his coaches.  If his players aren't improving and his coaches aren't helping them improve, then he needs to do what he has to in order to get the coaches to help his players.  If he had the right QB coach, that coach could work with him on his mechanics and other parts of his game that need improving.

[J24]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1.) Andy deserves blame for his performances. He needs to play better in the playoffs but at the same time our coaching staff needs to realize who he is. Andy isn't a superstar and I  feel like Marvin and our coaches treat him like one. During our playoff games with him under center the most carries a RB has ever had was 13. I guess what I am trying to say his we ask him to be like Peyton Manning but in reality he is like Joe Flaco.

2.) Andy is who he is. He's a good Qb who will have a couple of complete stinkers in a season. If Andy could take some of those horrific games off his resume then we would be saying he is a borderline top 10 Qb in the NFL right now.

3.) Yeah I feel confident in saying we can make it to a super bowl and win one with him as our QB. We have a pretty good roster on both sides of the ball and if we don't ask to much of him I think we can win a title with him as our QB. The Key how ever will because of how we run the Ball and play defense not what he does.

[wolfkaosaun]

1. 2011, whole team played bad. 2012. Run defense was terrible, Dalton didn't make the big plays, and Jay Gruden called a terrible game. 2013. Dalton after half time is hugely to blame. As was the pass rush. 2014. No wide receiver separation and zero pressure all game.

2. He made strides in the beginning of 2014, but then mechanics fell apart. I would like to see him improve on consistency in his mechanics. He had improved every year until last year, he took a step back.

3. In a way. I believe that we could win a Super Bowl with Andy Dalton. He has won big games.

[Thundercloud]

New website, old story.

[CornerBlitz]

(07-04-2015, 06:59 PM)Tim_B Wrote: 2. Yes, Every year I feel that he has improved.



I don't see why people give Dalton so much crap. Obviously he's not amazing, but everyone knows what he is. The strong point of the team isn't the QB position, so why not get upset with what we consider the strong point of the team when they play like crap? Even if we get a great QB, and our team plays like it does in the playoffs I would have my doubts if we win that game.

We put much of the attention on Dalton because he plays the most important position in football and has played like complete and utter crap when it counts the most. If you are of the assumption that Dalton isn't a very good QB and that we shouldn't blame him because we should expect inferior production from him like the playoff games then so be it.

I can actually live with a response such as this. Why expect much from him we know he is the weak link on the team? I think that is a sound reasonable opinion and one that I actually tend to agree with.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-05-2015, 05:54 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: We put much of the attention on Dalton because he plays the most important position in football and has played like complete and utter crap when it counts the most. If you are of the assumption that Dalton isn't a very good QB and that we shouldn't blame him because we should expect inferior production from him like the playoff games then so be it.

I can actually live with a response such as this.  Why expect much from him we know he is the weak link on the team?  I think that is a sound reasonable opinion and one that I actually tend to agree with.

Corner here's a few thoughts for you. Look big picture for once and not just Dalton hate.

1. We have an inferior coaching staff with a very few exceptions filled with guys the owner "likes". They've way more than proven they don't have the ability to coach with the big boys when it really counts.

2. Anything less than top 5% elite QB's - P. Manning, T. Brady, A. Rodgers isn't going to change point 1.

3. Dalton is an average to slightly above average QB whom isn't going to regularly carry a team on his back. He has to have coaches that know how to use his, and the teams strengths, to have any real chance when all the chips are on the line.

4. I'm not real sure even Brady or whoever could rise above the culture here. Until there's true accountability here and winning is the only focus up top ??? 

5. Mikey wants to win sure. But he wants to do it his way with "the boys" he likes and places  emphasis on loyalty and old school camaraderie instead of placing winning as the top objective. And he of course wants to win on a budget !

6. Add all that up and M. Ryan isn't going to change anything here. J. Flacco isn't either ! We can ***** about Dalton till the cows come home but until there's true accountability from top to bottom on this team nothing is going to change.

[Beaker]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton.

No. We have mainly had threads started by you bashing Dalton. You bring up the same tired accusations, people play into your hand and argue with you, you tell them they are wrong, then you start another thread whining about Dalton some more. It has become majorly tedious, and you are one of the main reasons that Jungle Noise is no longer a fun forum.