A few questions to ponder

[samhain]

(07-05-2015, 01:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Nobody has ever placed 100% of the blame on any one person. That’s just a phrase folks use to defend someone: “I guess it’s all Andy’s fault”, ‘So you are saying Marvin is 100% to blame?”. If I had to find a scapegoat it would be Mike Brown. He treats his team solely as a business and often cuts corners on his players’ amenities. To be a Champion you’ve got to believe you’re a champion. That is very hard to do when you are commuting to the local University or recreational soccer facility to practice indoors.

2. Yes, Andy is improving, the problem is that he is doing it very slowly and he may be nearing his ceiling.  For instance Andy enjoyed a much better rookie year than other young starters such as Luck and Tannehill; yet both have already demonstrated they have a higher ceiling than Andy.

3. I am not confident anyone will take us to a Super Bowl; however, Andy currently gives us the best chance.  

I feel very similar about the big picture.  I don't get as riled up about amenities (the new facilities are actually really nice), just the mentality.   People have debated whether or not Mike Brown really wants to win a Super Bowl for a long time.  I have no doubt that he does to some degree, but not enough to make any major changes in his organizational philosophy.  He wants to do it his way.  

There are owners, some very savvy and some utterly misguided, who are driven by a desire to win titles.  They are men who have lived lives in the dog-eat-dog world of business and corporate dealing and been very good at it, almost to a man.  They live to compete and measure dicks against other guys who live to compete and feed ego.  Mike just doesn't strike me as this type-A kind of  guy.  He's basically second-generation money and could really care less what anyone thinks of him.  I sort of admire him as a person for his FU mentality, TBH.  He's far from dumb, just stubborn.  When a smart, complacent man who's unwilling to change runs into a smart, obsessed man who will do anything to win, he usually loses.

[Beaker]

(07-05-2015, 06:12 PM)djs7685 Wrote: With that logic, we shouldn't care about even getting any decent players and should throw a bunch of bums on the field every week. Hey, any given Sunday!

Or it could mean that an AD led team is capable of beating any team in the league....which it is, and has. Sorry the obvious went over your head.

[djs7685]

(07-05-2015, 07:20 PM)Beaker Wrote: Or it could mean that an AD led team is capable of beating any team in the league....which it is, and has. Sorry the obvious went over your head.

A Ryan Leaf team is capable of beating anyone in the league too, any given Sunday!

[GodFather]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. He should be blamed for his poor performance. He isn't the only one to blame for the playoff losses though. The coaching should receive the majority of the blame in my opinion. But the rest of the players are also at fault for their lackluster playoff performances. Unfortunately this team has come out year after year looking flat and playing out of their league. Marvin Lewis is clearly the main culprit. He has been the one constant when their were completely different players on the team and coaches. He's the constant and so is the playoff results unfortunately.

My biggest problem with Dalton is he will not elevate the players around him because his presence doesn't bring the players performance up a notch but instead down a notch because he is part of the problem with his own performance or lack thereof.

2.No, he took a big step backwards last year overall. He started off strong the first month and just went wildly inconsistent for the rest of the season.

3. Based on his 4 years of performance? No. If I was a financial investor and lost money for you the first four years and blamed the market, politics, world events would you have confidence in me that I would one day make you enough money for retirement and continue to let me invest your hard earned money?

[BengalChris]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

1. You can't blame it all on Dalton. That just wouldn't be correct. Does Dalton have a hand in the playoff debacles? Absolutely!

2. Not in 2014. The Cleveland game showed us how low his floor is and it's pretty far down there. True their were injuries and a new OC, but Dalton practiced with the receivers he had all year long, so they should have been improving as the year went on. Instead, well, they just didn't.

3. 25% chance the way things are and for two reasons: a. Dalton hasn't shown me that he has the grit or ability to keep his head in the game when things start to get bad and b. Lewis is still the coach and Dalton is not the kind of talent who is going to overcome a poor game planning, poor or no in-game adjustments and an overall unimaginative head coach.

Now my answers would change if we had a better head coach. But firing Lewis doesn't mean that Mikey B will hire a better head coach, it only means there would be a different head coach and god only know who that might be.

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 09:17 PM)GodFather Wrote: 3. Based on his 4 years of performance? No. If I was a financial investor and lost money for you the first four years and blamed the market, politics, world events would you have confidence in me that I would one day make you enough money for retirement and continue to let me invest your hard earned money?

But Dalton and the Bengals have won more games than all but 7 other teams in the league.

How is the "losing money" every year?

[GodFather]

(07-05-2015, 09:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But Dalton and the Bengals have won more games than all but 7 other teams in the league.

How is the "losing money" every year?

Because at the end of the day he's still in the negative. If I earned you money 11 of the 12 months of the year but the 12th month lost more money than you made in the previous 11 combined and more would you buy the argument "But I made you money 11 months out of the year." And did it four years in a row? If your answer is yes, pm me and Id be happy to invest your hard earned money.

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 09:28 PM)BengalChris Wrote: 2. Not in 2014. True their were injuries and a new OC, but Dalton practiced with the receivers he had all year long, so they should have been improving as the year went on. Instead, well, they just didn't.

Not sure what you mean.  Dalton played his best ball down the stretch.  In games 10-17 he played the Steelers twice plus the Browns (#1 pass rating defense), the Texans (#6), and the Broncos (#8) and compiled a 91.2 passer rating.  He completed at least 68% of his passes in 6 of those 7 games (4 times over 70%) and had 11 tds and 8 ints compared to 8 tds and 9 ints in his first 9 games.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-05-2015, 01:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Nobody has ever placed 100% of the blame on any one person. That’s just a phrase folks use to defend someone: “I guess it’s all Andy’s fault”, ‘So you are saying Marvin is 100% to blame?”. If I had to find a scapegoat it would be Mike Brown. He treats his team solely as a business and often cuts corners on his players’ amenities. To be a Champion you’ve got to believe you’re a champion. That is very hard to do when you are commuting to the local University or recreational soccer facility to practice indoors.

2. Yes, Andy is improving, the problem is that he is doing it very slowly and he may be nearing his ceiling.  For instance Andy enjoyed a much better rookie year than other young starters such as Luck and Tannehill; yet both have already demonstrated they have a higher ceiling than Andy.

3. I am not confident anyone will take us to a Super Bowl; however, Andy currently gives us the best chance.  

Great post. While I'm always hard on Marvin about prime-time/playoff games, I agree that the lack of a practice facility is a major issue. This and the small scouting department are things that Marv has to deal with. Other teams are way ahead of the Bengals in these categories. Marv has to deal with these issues and still fields a consistently good team. The only issue I have with him is the choking. Other than that, I think Marv has done a wonderful job.

As for the OP, I don't put 100% blame on Marvin, and I'm the one who obviously inspired this thread. But I do believe it starts from the top down. More financial commitment (practice facility, additional scouts) would help Marvin to do his job better. Better coaching and preparation would help the QB (and every other player). 

I completely agree with your take on Andy's progress. It's slow going and I think he's close to peaking. Although I do think he will rebound from last year. I'd like to see him hit 90 with his passer rating and see him have fewer "disaster" games. If that doesn't happen, I'd be okay with exploring other options next year.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-05-2015, 09:17 PM)GodFather Wrote: 1. He should be blamed for his poor performance. He isn't the only one to blame for the playoff losses though. The coaching should receive the majority of the blame in my opinion. But the rest of the players are also at fault for their lackluster playoff performances. Unfortunately this team has come out year after year looking flat and playing out of their league. Marvin Lewis is clearly the main culprit. He has been the one constant when their were completely different players on the team and coaches. He's the constant and so is the playoff results unfortunately.

My biggest problem with Dalton is he will not elevate the players around him because his presence doesn't bring the players performance up a notch but instead down a notch because he is part of the problem with his own performance or lack thereof.

2.No, he took a big step backwards last year overall. He started off strong the first month and just went wildly inconsistent for the rest of the season.

3. Based on his 4 years of performance? No. If I was a financial investor and lost money for you the first four years and blamed the market, politics, world events would you have confidence in me that I would one day make you enough money for retirement and continue to let me invest your hard earned money?

Although I don't think Dalton drags his teammates down a notch (I don't think he elevates them much, either), I pretty much agree with most of this post. Rep.

[wolfkaosaun]

(07-04-2015, 04:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: How on Earth do you guys see AD as improving over the years? It's slight at best. Regular season... about the same or worse (he's streaky). Playoffs.... stinks, so that is the same.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

What the hell do you see that I do not? I watch every game. He has good games and he has God awful ones. Just embarrassingly bad. He has bad games or OK games more often then good or great ones.

- The "new OC" excuse is asinine and completely lame.  Hugh Jackson was the promoted OC, a position he has held with several teams over the years but it was announced as soon as the hiring took place that they were absolutely, positively, NOT changing the offense around. Last year they ran the same offense Jay Gruden implemented. No significant changes. To point to that as a factor for AD's play is silly and shows a total lack of paying attention.

Fred....

Your statements are misleading.

- AD is 2-6 against the Steelers. To name them as a team he's "beaten" is misleading as he has been beaten like a drum by Pittsburgh more often than not.
- AD is 1-1 against NE and in the game he "won" he had 200 yards and an INT. He did complete a high %, so... in the case they play NE when it counts I'll hope he can pull that miracle off again.
- He's 1-1 against Andrew Luck's Colts, 0-1 when it counts. AD's rookie year the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.
- He's 4-4 against the Ravens.
- He's beaten the Packers the 1 time they played. AD was pretty good there.

Yeah, sure, he's won some games, but not consistently against good teams or in the spotlight. Why on Earth do people keep banging the drum that he's anything but an OK, serviceable guy and think that the Bengals can't or shouldn't try to do better? Does hope make you feel that much better? Maybe you think the power of positive thinking will take over? Maybe the expectations are still so low?

Here is a list of Superbowl QBs.  http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97
AD is better than Rex Grossman, similar to Brad Johnson (but without the arm), Capernick is up and down (but I would take him over AD). He's not even close to a Jake Delhomme, to be honest. Go back even further and you're looking at Dilfer and O'Donnell. That is basically it and those guys did it in an era where the running game was the major focus of their teams.

No way, no how does the AD of the past 4 seasons win a playoff game this year. He has to get much much better. Can anyone who actually watches the games show me how he has shown significant improvement?

He beat the Steelers to get into the playoffs in 2012. He beat the Ravens in 2013 to help secure a playoff berth, win the AFC North, and knock out the Ravens from the playoffs. He knocked out both the Steelers and Ravens from the playoffs in back to back seasons.

Also, Dalton is 2-1 against the Colts. They played his rookie season, he played Luck in 2013 and played EXTREMELY well. QB rating of 120.5 and threw for 3 TDs.

In 2013 Dalton went 4-0 against playoff teams. Had 6 passing touchdowns, one rushing touchdown, and 3 interceptions in those games. Had a QB rating above 105 in two of those games and never had below a QB rating of 81.

Also there's game tape to believe that Dalton has improved. There's a ton of early on games from 2014 and especially in 2013. Sure, you can bring up turnovers in 2013, but there's a ton of interceptions that year that are other players fault.

I'm actually going to do a game film breakdown on Dalton from his early on games in 2014 to later on, along with a comparison to another player that plays in a similar style as Dalton.

[Beaker]

(07-05-2015, 08:48 PM)djs7685 Wrote: A Ryan Leaf team is capable of beating anyone in the league too, any given Sunday!

You missed the premise completely.

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 09:57 PM)GodFather Wrote: Because at the end of the day he's still in the negative. If I earned you money 11 of the 12 months of the year but the 12th month lost more money than you made in the previous 11 combined and more would you buy the argument "But I made you money 11 months out of the year." And did it four years in a row? If your answer is yes, pm me and Id be happy to invest your hard earned money.

This is gibberish.  

How is he still "in the negative" when he has a winning record?

[Junglejuice]

(07-05-2015, 10:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I would think that by now you would be numb to all of the butthurt you seem to endure over your fandom of #14?



I'm (mostly) kidding.

Lol try reading my posts.... When it comes to Dalton... not too hot not too cold... you know like a logical human being.


In other words...

I know you are but what am I?

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-06-2015, 01:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is gibberish.  

How is he still "in the negative" when he has a winning record?

The British had a winning record through most of the Revolutionary War, how'd that turn out for em ? It's not how you start it's how you finish. 

And we don't !

[BengalChris]

(07-05-2015, 09:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what you mean.  Dalton played his best ball down the stretch.  In games 10-17 he played the Steelers twice plus the Browns (#1 pass rating defense), the Texans (#6), and the Broncos (#8) and compiled a 91.2 passer rating.  He completed at least 68% of his passes in 6 of those 7 games (4 times over 70%) and had 11 tds and 8 ints compared to 8 tds and 9 ints in his first 9 games.

In the first 3 games of the year:

Against the Ravens Dalton went 25 of 38 for 301 yards a 1 TD, 0 INTs.
Against Atlanta (about the same quality team as TB) Dalton went 15 of 23 for 255 yards and 1 TD and 0 INTs.
Against the Titans he didn't have a very good game where he went 15 of 23 again but for only 168 yards and 0 TDs and 1 INT.


In the last 5 games of regular season the Bengals went 3-2.

TB was a win by 1 point and where Josh McCown threw for only 190 yards and that was more than Dalton threw for, plus Dalton had 3 INTs in that game.
In Cleveland win (30-0) Hill ran for more yards (148) than Dalton threw for (117).
Denver game as a very nice game by Dalton.
In first Steelers game Dalton threw for 2 TDs and 0 INTs, but coughed a fumble. We only ran Hill 8 times for 46 yards in this game, which was a play calling blunder of sizable proportions.
In second Steelers game Dalton threw for 2 TDs, but also threw 2 INTs.

Then there's the Indy game where Dalton went 18 of 35 for a whooping 155 yards and 0 TDs and a FUM.

I don't see the improvement.

[t3r3e3]

(07-05-2015, 09:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But Dalton and the Bengals have won more games than all but 7 other teams in the league.

How is the "losing money" every year?

By regular season wins, the Bengals are winners during the Dalton years. When measured against the "blue chips" (Playoff games), they're 0-fer. The Bengals also have a losing record against the Division the last four years, and have fattened their win total on the non conference schedule.  Most irritating Is that the Steelers have owned the Bengals the past four years, and the lowly Browns have played the Bengals to a virtual draw.

There have been some good wins in the past four years, including Denver last year, the perfectly timed monsoon against NE, stifling GB.  The problem is no one remembers who wins lots of regular season games.  People remember who wins championships, and who consistently competes for them.  Marty Schottenheimer won lots of regular season games, but didn't win d1ck when it mattered most.  Do fans in Cleveland, San Diego, and KC remember him for his regular season success?  Nope, they dog him for never leading them to the promised land with talented rosters.  We're all happy that the Bengals are consistently winning 9-10 games each year, but we're frustrated as he11 they can't quit stepping on their d1cks in the Playoffs.  Merely making the upper 40% each year is not enough.  It's time to become a legitimate threat to win it all.

[Brownshoe]

(07-06-2015, 02:07 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The British had a winning record through most of the Revolutionary War, how'd that turn out for em ? It's not how you start it's how you finish. 

And we don't !

"Most of" is the key words in that statement. Pretty much makes it irrelevant to the conversation.

[Tim_B]

(07-06-2015, 02:26 AM)BengalChris Wrote: In the first 3 games of the year:

Against the Ravens Dalton went 25 of 38 for 301 yards a 1 TD, 0 INTs.
Against Atlanta (about the same quality team as TB) Dalton went 15 of 23 for 255 yards and 1 TD and 0 INTs.
Against the Titans he didn't have a very good game where he went 15 of 23 again but for only 168 yards and 0 TDs and 1 INT.


In the last 5 games of regular season the Bengals went 3-2.

TB was a win by 1 point and where Josh McCown threw for only 190 yards and that was more than Dalton threw for, plus Dalton had 3 INTs in that game.
In Cleveland win (30-0) Hill ran for more yards (148) than Dalton threw for (117).
Denver game as a very nice game by Dalton.
In first Steelers game Dalton threw for 2 TDs and 0 INTs, but coughed a fumble. We only ran Hill 8 times for 46 yards in this game, which was a play calling blunder of sizable proportions.
In second Steelers game Dalton threw for 2 TDs, but also threw 2 INTs.

Then there's the Indy game where Dalton went 18 of 35 for a whooping 155 yards and 0 TDs and a FUM.

I don't see the improvement.

I think you have to remember all of the injuries the Bengals had down the stretch. Both Pittsburgh games Dalton played very well IMO, and the only one you could say he played bad in the last 5 games of the season is the Tampa Bay game IMO. The Bengals in general play better the 2nd half of the season. The last 3 years the Bengals are 17-7 in the last 8 games of the season. I'm pretty new here and I see a lot of Dalton bashing on theses boards, and I do think that he deserves a good amount of his criticisms, but I honestly think that a lot of people undervalue Dalton. I don't think he's elite, but he's slightly above average (I think he's around ~13ish best QB). People just need to remember that the past 4 years this has been a defensive team. Most of our talent has been on the defensive side of the ball, so our offense needs to lean on the defense to win those big games. Most of the time the defense falls short, and our offense has been having to pick up the slack causing a lot of bad plays.

[BengalChris]

(07-06-2015, 03:50 AM)Tim_B Wrote: I think you have to remember all of the injuries the Bengals had down the stretch. Both Pittsburgh games Dalton played very well IMO, and the only one you could say he played bad in the last 5 games of the season is the Tampa Bay game IMO. The Bengals in general play better the 2nd half of the season. The last 3 years the Bengals are 17-7 in the last 8 games of the season. I'm pretty new here and I see a lot of Dalton bashing on theses boards, and I do think that he deserves a good amount of his criticisms, but I honestly think that a lot of people undervalue Dalton. I don't think he's elite, but he's slightly above average (I think he's around ~13ish best QB). People just need to remember that the past 4 years this has been a defensive team. Most of our talent has been on the defensive side of the ball, so our offense needs to lean on the defense to win those big games. Most of the time the defense falls short, and our offense has been having to pick up the slack causing a lot of bad plays.

My point is that he didn't improve in 2014 and he didn't. He also didn't improve as the year went on, which is what you would expect if the QB practiced with those same guys all year long. I'm not bashing him. I'm just saying he didn't improve in 2014 and few will say he did.

If you go back to my original post, I pin a lot on the coaching.

I place Dalton in th 14-16 range of QBs. The inconsistencies are what bring him down. I know he's capable of having really nice games. I also know that he's liable to have some more really bad ones and they seem to come from no where. Whenever people call him elite or try to compare his game with all time greats, I just post the highlights of the Cleveland game and that's pretty much proof he doesn't belong in such comparisons. At least not until he wins a SB (whenever that may be).

QBs I rank ahead of Dalton are: Brady, P Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, Rothlesburger, Brees, Flacco, Romo, Luck, Wilson, E Manning, Tannihill, Ryan.

Guys I rank around Dalton are: Stafford, Newton, Foles (had a better 2013 than Dalton did), Palmer.

Up and coming young guys who could overtake Dalton in the next couple off years: Derek Carr (a couple of years away give how badly manned the Raiders are), Bridgewater (solid, talented team around him, kind of like what Dalton has had).

Gues I rank below Dalton are: Smith, Manuel, Keapernick, RGIII, Sanchez, Vick (now that he's aged), Orton, Hoyer, etc.