A few questions to ponder

[Tim_B]

(07-06-2015, 06:12 AM)BengalChris Wrote: My point is that he didn't improve in 2014 and he didn't. He also didn't improve as the year went on, which is what you would expect if the QB practiced with those same guys all year long. I'm not bashing him. I'm just saying he didn't improve in 2014 and few will say he did.

If you go back to my original post, I pin a lot on the coaching.

I place Dalton in th 14-16 range of QBs. The inconsistencies are what bring him down. I know he's capable of having really nice games. I also know that he's liable to have some more really bad ones and they seem to come from no where. Whenever people call him elite or try to compare his game with all time greats, I just post the highlights of the Cleveland game and that's pretty much proof he doesn't belong in such comparisons. At least not until he wins a SB (whenever that may be).

QBs I rank ahead of Dalton are: Brady, P Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, Rothlesburger, Brees, Flacco, Romo, Luck, Wilson, E Manning, Tannihill, Ryan.

Guys I rank around Dalton are: Stafford, Newton, Foles (had a better 2013 than Dalton did), Palmer.

Up and coming young guys who could overtake Dalton in the next couple off years: Derek Carr (a couple of years away give how badly manned the Raiders are), Bridgewater (solid, talented team around him, kind of like what Dalton has had).

Gues I rank below Dalton are: Smith, Manuel, Keapernick, RGIII, Sanchez, Vick (now that he's aged), Orton, Hoyer, etc.

His stats didn't improve in 2014, and that's for sure. But I don't think you could just go off of what the stats say for last year. Only because of the talent gap of what he had in 2013 and 2014. It honestly all depends on what your perspective is if you think he improved or not. Personally I think that he showed some improvement, but that's easily debatable; I can easily understand if someone thinks that he regressed / stayed the same.

I agree with your list except that I think E. Manning, Flacco and Tannihill are around Dalton, and not clearly ahead. (I'm not saying Dalton is better than them either)

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-05-2015, 01:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote: There is no need to use definitive words like "impossible". It is not impossible until AD retires.

My logic is that Peyton Manning's much larger sample size and successful career vs AD's. If AD can never figure out the Colts, but figures out just about everyone else, I can live with that. Time will tell on that.

I am more concerned with his playing well against good teams or teams that are consistently good. Last year, the Bengals beat a lot of bad teams - despite the injuries - which was impressive. The year before, they beat a lot of good teams, and were healthy.

What confounds me is that they finished the season going 5-1 and then laid such an egg to SD. That is worrisome as a fan because they had just beaten down SD on the road only to come back and get killed at home. AD's inconsistency is the problem and it stems from the mental.

I agree with this.....but it musta also been mental for the staff to pull the plug on a RB that was averaging around 5.5 a clip, and had averaged around 5 a clip for his entire career against SD.  That was more worrisome to me anyway.......

[Benton]

(07-04-2015, 02:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So we've had many discussions about ole boy Dalton. I have a few questions I'll pose to some of you and would like an honest sincere answer. I will only respond to those that have first made an actual attempt to answer these questions.

1. At what point are we allowed to blame the QB for his inferior playoff performances instead of saying it's 100% Marvin's fault and is there a scenario where we can blame both? (If you feel neither are at fault like FredToast, then please explain who is at fault?)

2. Do you feel that Dalton is improving as a QB?

3. Are you confident in Andy Dalton taking us to the Super Bowl one day?

I'll be patiently waiting and am truly looking forward to your answers. Just pretend someone else asked these questions. I'm sure that will allow you to answer them objectively, or not.

Late to the thread, there was a lot more going on this weekend other than The Great Dalton Debate.

Sooo...

1. Wha? I think the entire team generally gets blamed for poor playoff performances. Coaching has stunk, playcalling, passing, defense. The only few good spots have been our running — which we largely didn't do.

2. Not that we see. Physically I think he's as good as he gets. Mentally he may be taking things away from his mistakes, which is the only way to grow.

3.

It's a team sport. I'm not confident in any one person "taking" us anywhere. Until Marvin, the Red Rocket, Whit, Leon or whoever can step up and get the team to play to its potential, we aren't going anywhere. That's what we're missing. It's not an elite QB. It's not a top 10 pass rush. It's not a 6 YPC avg.

It's leadership.

Get someone who can get every guy to go out there and make one play — one 80-yard TD run, one forced fumble, one pick six, one 50-yard field goal, whatever it is they do — and we will win it all.

[BengalChris]

(07-04-2015, 04:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - He's 1-1 against Andrew Luck's Colts, 0-1 when it counts. AD's rookie year the Colts were the worst team in the NFL.

How can Dalton be 1-1 against Luck when the he lost to Luck twice last year?

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2015, 06:12 AM)BengalChris Wrote: My point is that he didn't improve in 2014 and he didn't. He also didn't improve as the year went on, which is what you would expect if the QB practiced with those same guys all year long.

He didn't practice with those guys all year long.  We picked up Little mid season, and Burkhead was not a WR until the playoff game.

How about the fact that Green got injured in the second game of the year.  Think that might have some effect on the fact that his production declined at that point?

Despite all of this Dalton played better in the last 7 games of the regular season than he did the first half of the year.

[Brownshoe]

(07-06-2015, 12:10 PM)BengalChris Wrote: How can Dalton be 1-1 against Luck when the he lost to Luck twice last year?

He is 1-1 with luck in the regular season.

[grampahol]

Geeeez..Some of you would ***** if you had to periodically trim your toe nails.
Dalton is the QB, Lewis is the head coach. Get over it for crying out loud. .
I seriously doubt Mike Brown or any of his extended family are going to come here to this site and ask, "Well fellahs..Should I can everyone and start over from scratch? "
As much as it pains me to say it football is just a game of entertainment. .Your lives don't depend on it. LOL

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2015, 03:33 PM)grampahol Wrote: Geeeez..Some of you would ***** if you had to periodically trim your toe nails.
Dalton is the QB, Lewis is the head coach. Get over it for crying out loud. .
I seriously doubt Mike Brown or any of his extended family are going to come here to this site and ask,  "Well fellahs..Should I can everyone and start over from scratch? "
As much as it pains me to say it football is just a game of entertainment. .Your lives don't depend on it.  LOL

Well excuse us for interrupting your work to cure cancer in your spare time.

WTF are you doing here anyway if there is no need to have football discussions?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-06-2015, 07:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well excuse us for interrupting your work to cure cancer in your spare time.

WTF are you doing here anyway if there is no need to have football discussions?

Oh good god the sweet sweet irony. 

[djs7685]

(07-06-2015, 01:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Despite all of this Dalton played better in the last 7 games of the regular season than he did the first half of the year.

Andy looked better in the first 5 games of 2014 than he has in any month-ish stretch of his career other than October 2013.

You know how I feel about Andy, but he was looking like a damn good QB to open the season. I was even arguing with the "haters" on the old board that were complaining that his volume numbers weren't up.

[CornerBlitz]

(07-06-2015, 08:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy looked better in the first 5 games of 2014 than he has in any month-ish stretch of his career other than October 2013.

You know how I feel about Andy, but he was looking like a damn good QB to open the season. I was even arguing with the "haters" on the old board that were complaining that his volume numbers weren't up.

I remember declaring after the first 3 games that we were the best team in the AFC and we actually had a chance to make a run at the SB.....wow how things changed after that.

[PDub80]

(07-06-2015, 12:10 PM)BengalChris Wrote: How can Dalton be 1-1 against Luck when the he lost to Luck twice last year?

Regular season: He beat the Colts once with Andrew Luck at QB in 2013, He lost once in 2014. AD beat them once withOUT Luck a in 2011 when Curtis Painter was QB.

Playoffs AD lost, but I don't really think it's fair to put that on anyone. The team was depleted and had no realistic shot.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-06-2015, 08:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy looked better in the first 5 games of 2014 than he has in any month-ish stretch of his career other than October 2013.

You know how I feel about Andy, but he was looking like a damn good QB to open the season. I was even arguing with the "haters" on the old board that were complaining that his volume numbers weren't up.

Let the Zampese-itis kick back in his brain.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-06-2015, 08:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy looked better in the first 5 games of 2014 than he has in any month-ish stretch of his career other than October 2013.

You know how I feel about Andy, but he was looking like a damn good QB to open the season. I was even arguing with the "haters" on the old board that were complaining that his volume numbers weren't up.

Yes he did ! The numbers weren't great but he looked confident throughout every game. He was making plays when he had to and we were winning.

Then, well, the rug got pulled out from under him. You could see his confidence eroding away a little every game after that.

I don't think it was any one thing that did it just the combination of injuries, the pressure on him to be Mr. perfect game manager, the coaches not knowing how to/who to fix the O with. And so on.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-07-2015, 12:41 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yes he did ! The numbers weren't great but he looked confident throughout every game. He was making plays when he had to and we were winning.

Then, well, the rug got pulled out from under him. You could see his confidence eroding away a little every game after that.

I don't think it was any one thing that did it just the combination of injuries, the pressure on him to be Mr. perfect game manager, the coaches not knowing how to/who to fix the O with. And so on.

I say Zam, you say Pese!
Zam!

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2015, 10:26 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Let the Zampese-itis kick back in his brain.

Actually Dalton played very well at the end of the year when Zampese got him straightend back out.

Only 2 of his first 5 opponents ranked in the top half of the league in pass defense (passer rating), and the best he faced was the #10 Pats.

Over his last 7 games he had to face the #1 ranked Browns and two other teams ranked higher than the Patriots (#6 Texans, #8 Broncos).

His 98.4 rating over his first 5 games was impressive, but when you consider the opposition his 91.2 rating over his last 7 games was also pretty good.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-07-2015, 12:53 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I say Zam, you say Pese!
Zam!

Pese!

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-07-2015, 12:53 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I say Zam, you say Pese!
Zam!

pese

[djs7685]

(07-07-2015, 01:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Dalton played very well at the end of the year when Zampese got him straightend back out.

Only 2 of his first 5 opponents ranked in the top half of the league in pass defense (passer rating), and the best he faced was the #10 Pats.

Over his last 7 games he had to face the #1 ranked Browns and two other teams ranked higher than the Patriots (#6 Texans, #8 Broncos).

His 98.4 rating over his first 5 games was impressive, but when you consider the opposition his 91.2 rating over his last 7 games was also pretty good.

Uhhh....sort of. I think you're (intentionally) misleading people with these statistics.

If you take out the Saints game, his rating drops all the way down to around 83.5 for the last 6 games.

Other than completing a high percentage of his passes (IMO had a lot to do with playcalling if you consider his <7 YPA in all but 1 of the last 6 games), Andy looked off by the end of the year, injuries to other players or not. It's extremely misleading to claim that he was impressive to end the 2014 season, the only way you can even say that with a straight face is to include the Saints game and pretend the other games don't matter too much.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-07-2015, 12:53 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I say Zam, you say Pese!
Zam!

Zam - Pese lemon squeezee.