Can Andy and the Bengals finally win a playoff game?

[Bengalholic]

Over the last couple of weeks, Coley and the AFC North guys at ESPN have chimed in on whether Andy Dalton and the Bengals can finally get that elusive playoff win...




Can Andy Dalton take the next step and win a playoff game?
Andy Dalton has made the playoffs each of his first four seasons, but as Cincinnati Bengals fans are all too aware, he's 0-for-4 in those opportunities. Is there reason to believe this year will be different if the Bengals make the playoffs again?

Read the responses http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/17530/afc-north-qa-is-there-reason-to-believe-andy-dalton-will-take-the-next-step-in-his-development-and-win-a-playoff-game





Why playoff-win drought for Bengals, Andy Dalton will continue
Ask any sports fan from the Queen City what he or she most wants out of their professional sports teams and you will get a simple answer: a playoff win.

It's been 20 years since the Cincinnati Reds won a playoff series, and 25 since the Cincinnati Bengals last claimed a postseason victory. Earlier this summer, the New York Times even declared the city's sports fans as the 12th-most tortured in the country, due to the dearth of recent postseason success.

Read the rest of the article http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/17877/bengals-andy-dalton-playoffs-win-drought-continues

[*Awful Llama*]

I can't click on the links.  What I have done to anger you? 

[Bengalholic]

(07-08-2015, 03:57 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: I can't click on the links.  What I have done to anger you? 

I was just going to tell you to click 'em harder! 


But, they should be working now. 

[Bengal Dude]

I find it a little funny that the Steelers and Ravens writers say no while the Browns writer says yes.

[McC]

Gotta get the defense back to least close to what it was. That makes the whole offense's jobs easier.

I would think the Bengals will be a better team this year than last. I think we will get back to the playoffs. Then the whole team, players and coaches, everybody, has to beat the guy across from him. Play it all out one play at a time. If you concentrate on details, it's easier to put bigger picture things out of your mind. That giant monkey has to weigh a lot walking out onto that playoff field.

They need more cleverness in game planning. They need more resiliency, more determination. They need to be stronger physically and mentally. Somehow, they just need to be able to just go out there and play and leave all the negativity behind.

The pieces look like they're in place. And I'm a firm believer that because a thing hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never can.

If I'm weighing hope and confidence, I have more hope but I'm kinda on the edge of my seat, itching to see some proof and wanting so much to believe all out.

I wanna say yes. The best I can do at this point is say I hope so.

Anyone can understand why beat writers for other teams would say no. You can make a case for yes or no.

The case for no is based on past history and the case for yes is mostly based on hope and what there is on paper.

[Bengalholic]

Fwiw, I personnaly think they can win a playoff game this year. I think they will get there for a 5th straight year, but to finally get that win, 3 things have to happen...

They have to remain relatively healthy (comparative to other teams).
They have to stop turning into the Bad News Bears in the second half.
And for the love of Lindy Infante, they need to be able to make real, viable adjustments if the original game plan stops working.

[Wes Mantooth]

The answer is, more than likely, no. If you were to evaluate a yes or no question outside of sports, with a similar amount of data, it would prove this. It is unlikely they do any better than they've done previously. Why? Because little to nothing has changed. A similar approach, with a long proven track record, should, more often than not, yield similar results.

We heard how they'd surely win when they had a full offseason and Andy AJ had another year under their belt. Didn't happen.

We heard that surely in year 3, with another year of seasoning for a duo that already had a fund set aside for them, and with a plethora of added weapons (Eifert, Bernard, the emergence of Marvin Jones), that we'd certainly be poised to take the next step and be a contender. Even getting a game at home, against a team we already beat , against a West Coast team in an AFCN stadium, in January, a kickoff at 10am their time...it still didn't happen. Not only did it not happen, we were embarrassed and outscored 20-0 in the second half, and suffered the biggest margin of defeat for the entire round (we were the worst team).

Then we heard that with Jay Gruden gone and genius that is Hue Jackson stepping in that we'd surely take that next step in year 4. We even added another weapon to the offense. This was to be the year. Shocker >>>> DID. NOT. HAPPEN.

And these are just the "reboot" years. It didn't happen in 2009 either, which was another home game.

It didn't happen under Carson. It didn't happen under Andy. It didn't happen under Brat. It didn't happen under Gruden. It hasn't happened with Hue Jackson either. It didn't happen under Frazier, Breshnahan, Zimmer, or Gunther.

In fact, it didn't happen in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 or 2014. (Just ratting off those years is exhausting.)

And if you want to take it bigger than the reboot years and the Marvin years, let's look at the Mike years. It hasn't happened in 25 years. That's a QUARTER of a CENTURY!!! 25 years, and this Mickey Mouse owner, with Mom and Pop's Nickle and Dime approach hasn't produced one stinking playoff win. Do you know how poorly run of a team you have to be to accomplish this in this league. It's statistically more likely to win 3 Superbowls over 25 years than it is not even luck your way into one playoff win.

So for me to come up with answer I just ask myself one question: Why should this year be any different than previous years? (The last 4, the last 12, and the last 25?)

I can't come up with one single answer to that question. Nothing has changed. Same owner, same general approach, same head coach, entire coaching staff returning, much of the coaching staff here going back a decade or more. You've got the same QB, same core group of skill players, you've got the same schemes you've been running for years... I could go on and on.

Look, I get fans convince themselves of things getting better for no other reason than that's just how it goes. I'll admit I'm in the minority of fans. But if I'm being totally honest and fair, looking at this team like any other, I can't see any logical reason to believe that the results should change. Because the approach certainly hasn't.

[WhoDeyWho]

This year's team will be the best overall team in the Dalton Green era if we don't get decimated by injuries.

At the start of last year Gio was our #1 RB and Sanu was our #2 receiver.

This year Hill is the unquestioned starter and I look forward to what this offense will look like with him being flanked by Jones Eifert and Green. We will be a hard offense to defend against.

If the defense is anywhere near 2013 form, we might even be talking a first round playoff bye.

[*Awful Llama*]

(07-08-2015, 04:36 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I find it a little funny that the Steelers and Ravens writers say no while the Browns writer says yes.

It's that all-consuming, lunatic optimism that all Browns fans posess. It's fitting that a dog is their mascot, because they're every bit as dense and have the same stupid look and absolute cluelessness of their fate that a dog has (please, save your hate dog-lovers, I've had a few dogs and currently have a great one, it's not about that).

Law of averages, luck, payback - whatever you want to call it - the universe owes Bengals fans, big-time. Woof.

[wolfkaosaun]

Could they? Yes. Will they? We'll see.

Defensive line didn't really get fixed, just brought back old pieces while no other players really improved. Burfict is injured and that whole linebacker corp is a huge question mark, whether it be from poor play or injuries or inexperience. Has Leon Hall lost a step? He seemed to have gotten worse as time went on and gave up some big plays last season. Can Kirkpatrick step up? Will Dennard be called upon? Will George Iloka continue to improve? What is Guenther going to do differently, if anything? Can he do a rotation like Zimmer did? Will he get the most out of his players?

Then on offense there's obviously the question marks with Dalton. Then, who will step up outside of Green? Was Jones a one year wonder? Can Sanu fix his drops? Will Bodine improve? Can Eifert stay healthy? How will the offense look next year? Can Hue Jackson help this team take the next step rather than just talk about it?

Can Marvin get his teams to play well in primetime consistently?

There's a ton of question marks on this team. This team is a good team and deep....on paper. They won games last year due to injury, but they've had healthy players before and still haven't won playoff games.

I have hope, but there's a ton of question marks. And how those questions are answered will have a HUGE impact on how this team looks in 2016.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-08-2015, 05:59 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Could they? Yes. Will they? We'll see.

Defensive line didn't really get fixed, just brought back old pieces while no other players really improved. Burfict is injured and that whole linebacker corp is a huge question mark, whether it be from poor play or injuries or inexperience. Has Leon Hall lost a step? He seemed to have gotten worse as time went on and gave up some big plays last season. Can Kirkpatrick step up? Will Dennard be called upon? Will George Iloka continue to improve? What is Guenther going to do differently, if anything? Can he do a rotation like Zimmer did? Will he get the most out of his players?

Then on offense there's obviously the question marks with Dalton. Then, who will step up outside of Green? Was Jones a one year wonder? Can Sanu fix his drops? Will Bodine improve? Can Eifert stay healthy? How will the offense look next year? Can Hue Jackson help this team take the next step rather than just talk about it?

Can Marvin get his teams to play well in primetime consistently?

There's a ton of question marks on this team. This team is a good team and deep....on paper. They won games last year due to injury, but they've had healthy players before and still haven't won playoff games.

I have hope, but there's a ton of question marks. And how those questions are answered will have a HUGE impact on how this team looks in 2016.

One of those "old pieces" we got back on the line, was a part of some pretty good defenses here.  I don't know how you shrug that off.  

[BFritz21]

I saw that and read it thinking it might actually have some insight, but it was an article that didn't offer anything worth reading.

They say how Dalton had arguably his best playoff game last season, then go on to list all the injuries that we had and said that he went turnover free with no touchdowns, but no mention of how missing all of those weapons contributed to not having any touchdowns. They also list all the injuries, but failed to mention how Hill's ankle injury hobbled him in the second quarter and then how he didn't get any carries after the first two drives in the second half.

Then the cursed paragraph is just them trying to grab headlines.

It's nothing but a hater piece that's filled with garbage.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-08-2015, 05:43 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: This year's team will be the best overall team in the Dalton Green era if we don't get decimated by injuries.

They weren't decimated by injuries in 2009, 2011, 2012, or 2013.  What happened?

Also, I would encourage people to look at some injury situations around the league and then compare them to ours and ask again what constitutes "being decimated".  Because losing a starting QB, that's going to hurt a lot worse than losing a backup tight end, coming off 300 yards receiving. 

We were really "decimated"?  Have we had more injuries than any other average team over the last few years? Losing your starting QB like Sam Bradford or Carson Palmer, that really hurts a team.   Losing Julio Jones for the season in week 5, like the Falcons did in 2013, is worse than losing AJ Green for 3-4 games.  The loss of Calvin Johnson last season was a bigger blow. 

Each and every year you can see the injury report littered with names much bigger than Eifert and Jones.  Names like Arian Foster, Jamaal Charles, Roddy White, Reggie Bush, etc.

Each and every year you see position much more valuable than Middle Linebacker go down.  Hell, look at the Cardinals last year.  They went through two QB's.  Is Vontaze Burfict a fantastic player?  Sure.  Is he a better MLB than Palmer is a QB?  Definitely. But is MLB of greater or equal in value to a starting QB?  Not even close.  If you were to rank which team was hurt worse, team QB or team MLB, team QB is taking a much bigger hit.

So again how many injuries have we seen recently?  Going back 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, what's the volume like?  Are we seeing  a higher than normal amount of total injuries?  And what about the value of the players lost?  If you were to try to assign a value to every players lost, would we have lost a greater caliber of player than our peers?  Are we having a higher rate of starting players hurt?  Are we having a higher rate of star players hurt?  What about the rate of IR's?

I think the answer you would find to most of these questions would support the fact that we haven't seen a greater deal of injuries these last 4 years than average.  No more than normal.  In fact, you may find that we've been somewhat lucky.  I also think you'd see that we haven't loss any greater caliber of player than the norm either.  Our starters, stars, key contributors, leaders, whatever you want to call them, aren't dropping at any higher of a rate than that of most everybody else.

I personally think the injury excuse is one of the most overstated excuses you see when it comes to rationalizing another early exit.  New England won a Superbowl with their #1 WR playing both ways and starting at CB.  The Giants won a Superbowl with Jeff Hostetler.  The Texans beat our very Bengals in the playoffs with a 3rd string rookie QB.  Acting like this team saw such bad luck recently isn't accurate IMO. 

I would love to believe we won't have a single injury or that staying relatively healthy, just like we did a number of other years, will result in fixing all our woes.  And if it doesn't play out that way then I'm sure I can expect to hear about some new and exciting excuse nest year.  The sun being in Marvin's eyes perhaps? Black magic? Iluminati conspiracy?

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-08-2015, 06:06 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: They weren't decimated by injuries in 2009, 2011, 2012, or 2013.  What happened?

Also, I would encourage people to look at some injury situations around the league and then compare them to ours and ask again what constitutes "being decimated".  Because losing a starting QB, that's going to hurt a lot worse than losing a backup tight end, coming off 300 yards receiving. 

We were really "decimated"?  Have we had more injuries than any other average team over the last few years? Losing your starting QB like Sam Bradford or Carson Palmer, that really hurts a team.   Losing Julio Jones for the season in week 5, like the Falcons did in 2013, is worse than losing AJ Green for 3-4 games.  The loss of Calvin Johnson last season was a bigger blow. 

Each and every year you can see the injury report littered with names much bigger than Eifert and Jones.  Names like Arian Foster, Jamaal Charles, Roddy White, Reggie Bush, etc.

Each and every year you see position much more valuable than Middle Linebacker go down.  Hell, look at the Cardinals last year.  They went through two QB's.  Is Vontaze Burfict a fantastic player?  Sure.  Is he a better MLB than Palmer is a QB?  Definitely.  But is MLB of greater or equal in value to a starting QB?  Not even close.  If you were to rank which team was hurt worse, team QB or team MLB, team QB is taking a much bigger hit.

So again how many injuries have we seen recently?  Going back 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, what's the volume like?  Are we seeing  a higher than normal amount of total injuries?  And what about the value of the players lost?  If you were to try to assign a value to every players lost, would we have lost a greater caliber of player than our peers?  Are we having a higher rate of starting players hurt?  Are we having a higher rate of star players hurt?  What about the rate of IR's?

I think the answer you would find to most of these questions would support the fact that we haven't seen a greater deal of injuries these last 4 years than average.  No more than normal.  In fact, you may find that we've been somewhat lucky.  I also think you'd see that we haven't loss any greater caliber of player than the norm either.  Our starters, stars, key contributors, leaders, whatever you want to call them, aren't dropping at any higher of a rate than that of most everybody else.

I personally think the injury excuse is one of the most overstated excuses you see when it comes to rationalizing another early exit.  New England won a Superbowl with their #1 WR playing both ways and starting at CB.  The Giants won a Superbowl with Jeff Hostetler.  The Texans beat our very Bengals in the playoffs with a 3rd string rookie QB.  Acting like this team saw such bad luck recently isn't accurate IMO. 

I would love to believe we won't have a single injury or that staying relatively healthy, just like we did a number of other years, will result in fixing all our woes.  And if it doesn't play out that way then I'm sure I can expect to hear about some new and exciting excuse nest year.  The sun being in Marvin's eyes perhaps?  Black magic?  Iluminati conspiracy?

If injuries didn't matter, you wouldn't have exorbitant salaries, because you could theoretically plug in any schmo and you wouldn't have any drop off whatsoever.  I mean, the Giants won a SB with Hostettler for crissakes!

In regard to the Dalton Green era, in 2011 they were rookies coming off a 4 win season.  2013 they should have won.  2014 they shouldn't even had made the playoffs given all the injuries.  

My optimism comes from finally having a home-run hitter in the backfield.  Couple him with two playmaking WRs and watch out.  I also like that we have our D-line rotation back.  It was a pretty good one before Johnson left.   

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-08-2015, 06:23 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If injuries didn't matter, you wouldn't have exorbitant salaries, because you could theoretically plug in any schmo and you wouldn't have any drop off whatsoever.  I mean, the Giants won a SB with Hostettler for crissakes!

In regard to the Dalton Green era, in 2011 they were rookies coming off a 4 win season.  2013 they should have won.  2014 they shouldn't even had made the playoffs given all the injuries.  

My optimism comes from finally having a home-run hitter in the backfield.  Couple him with two playmaking WRs and watch out.  I also like that we have our D-line rotation back.  It was a pretty good one before Johnson left.   

I don't recall ever trying to say that injuries don't matter.  Among my points were that I don't we have seen an above average amount of injuries, both in sheer volume and impact.

I don't think it's fair to say that this team has been hindered more than average amount by injury, both last season and over the course of the last 4.  I don't it's fair to use it as an excuse.  Good to great teams win all thae time with injured players.  That's what makes them good (or great).  And all teams see significant injuries at some point.  Unless you're seeing an unordinary amount of players getting hurt then it's excuse almost every team could share.

The 2013 New Patriots lost Wes Welker (FA), Rob Gronkowski (Injury) Aaron Hernandez (Murder 1) and the newly signed Welker replacement Danny Amendola (Injury).  Welker and Hernadez obviously for the whole year, Gronk for the majority and Amendola on and off for half.  Guess what they did?  They went 12-4 and made it t0 the AFC Championship.  This with the likes of Aaron Hobson and Kembrell Thompkins seeing significant time.  This with the duo of Gronk and Hernandez, the greatest TE due ever, being replaced by Michael Hoomanawanui and Matthew Mulligan.

You want to know how they did this?  Because they're a legitimate contender.  They're well coached.  They have a great QB.  They expect nothing but the very best.  Their expectations and demands are ridiculously high, regardless of circumstance.

Like or not, these are you peers.  To win in this league sometimes you got to sack up and win a game with a star player out.  Sometimes your QB is going to be down a weapon or two.  Happens to everyone.  And if you can't adapt then that's what makes you less than.  That's why you're not one of the big dogs, but a pretender. 

And IMHO if you allow the idea that excuses are acceptable into your organization I think you're already behind the eight ball.  I think some of that plagues this team.  It is clear they don't demand as much as their peers, and I think that hurts them.  I just hope none of the thinking on injuries being such a greater hindrance here is shared by the staff.  Which would be scary, because I doubt you'd hear the same excuses in places like NE and Pit.  And many teams have lost players a whole of lot better than Tyler Eiffert and Marvin Jones, and many star players have missed longer periods than AJ Green.

[wolfkaosaun]

(07-08-2015, 06:02 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: One of those "old pieces" we got back on the line, was a part of some pretty good defenses here.  I don't know how you shrug that off.  

Because I'm not shrugging off a 4 sack season (2 of which came in one game), zero passes defended, and 27 tackles. That was MJ in 2014.

He was good against the run, but was pretty bad in Tampa Bay.

Can't shrug off his most recent season.

[Bengalholic]

Whenever the topic of the Bengals and the playoffs comes up...it always seems that we get the usual line of "excuses" for each loss. I would have no problem accepting the excuses for any individual loss, if that game were an anomaly compared to the others. But, that's not the case. Instead, each loss has followed a disturbingly similar pattern, regardless of what "excuses" may have existed.


For all the reasons that can be brought up to explain each of the 6 losses, the frustrating constants remain the same, game in, game out. Until those "constants" are addressed and fixed...excuses are all we're left with.


Like I said earlier, I think they're capable of winning in the postseason...but only when the coaches and players decide to put out a competent/competitive, full 60 minute effort.

[wolfkaosaun]

(07-08-2015, 07:23 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Whenever the topic of the Bengals and the playoffs comes up...it always seems that we get the usual line of "excuses" for each loss. I would have no problem accepting the excuses for any individual loss, if that game were an anomaly compared to the others. But, that's not the case. Instead, each loss has followed a disturbingly similar pattern, regardless of what "excuses" may have existed.


For all the reasons that can be brought up to explain each of the 6 losses, the frustrating constants remain the same, game in, game out. Until those "constants" are addressed and fixed...excuses are all we're left with.


Like I said earlier, I think they're capable of winning in the postseason...but only when the coaches and players decide to put out a competent/competitive, full 60 minute effort.

We've had Dalton for 4 years, but had Marvin for 12.

Marvin never won a playoff game before Dalton or during Dalton. Hasn't won a playoff game with 3 different coordinators. His teams are never consistent in primetime/playoff games.

Marvin has been the constant, and nothing has changed. Different players, same outcome.

[Hammerstripes]

I have no problem pinning last year's loss on injuries. However, there was no excuse for the home loss to San Diego the prior year. That was the point where I started to realize that Dalton may not be the guy to get the job done in the playoffs.

[bearstronaut]

(07-08-2015, 07:48 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: We've had Dalton for 4 years, but had Marvin for 12.

Marvin never won a playoff game before Dalton or during Dalton. Hasn't won a playoff game with 3 different coordinators. His teams are never consistent in primetime/playoff games.

Marvin has been the constant, and nothing has changed. Different players, same outcome.

The Bengals haven't won a playoff game since 1990.   Mike Brown took over from his dad in 91....  Marvin hasn't been the constant.  Mike Brown has been the constant.