The Bengals need to move on from Jeremy Hill

[*Nately120*]

(09-19-2016, 10:12 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Jeremy hill is no different then any bellcow, he needs carries,when he first got here he wasn't dominant till gio went down. Then he got 20-30 carries a game.  You can't take hill out for a quarter and expect him to come in and dominate. 

You can't expect an entire NFL franchise to sit around and wait until a guy who gets 2 yards per carry to turn it on.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-19-2016, 01:25 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: If you look at the production of Hill/Gio and Williams including rushing and receiving and add 1 receiving TD each the stats are nearly identical.

There are games in which establishing the run is simply not an option, and if you want to stay in the game you have to throw the ball.

We were backed up in our own red zone for like half the game, where the defense can key in on the offense due to limited play-calling potential. The past two games have not been conducive for establishing a running game (considering we have been on the road against top tier front 7s).

This was a close game folks. The sky is not falling just yet. It's only Week 2 and we're not 0-2 (thanks to Nugent of all people).

If Denver beats us and people start freaking out, it will make some sense to me. 1-2 is not good and a little bit scary. However, they still have to play the game. I don't think we'll simply let Denver waltz into our home opener and steal the game. It's going to be very emotional.

We beat the Jets 23 - 22 and Lost to the Steelers 24 - 16. We haven't been in 47 - 45 shootouts ! And I don't think we've been down by more than like 10 for any great length of game time. Your argument would make more sense had we been.

And I'm not so sure either front 7 we've faced will end up in the "top-tier". You have to be able to run when your in your own end of the field in order to get out into better field position. But we can't run no matter where we are on the field !

We can't get a 3rd and 1 conversion running it because the defense is back taking the handoff. No amount of spinning changes the fact that we have a fairly serious problem that needs fixed and fast !

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-19-2016, 10:12 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Jeremy hill is no different then any bellcow, he needs carries,when he first got here he wasn't dominant till gio went down. Then he got 20-30 carries a game.  You can't take hill out for a quarter and expect him to come in and dominate. 

(09-19-2016, 10:16 PM)Nately120 Wrote: You can't expect an entire NFL franchise to sit around and wait until a guy who gets 2 yards per carry to turn it on.

Exactly, Nate. People are looking at this all wrong. Hill doesn't magically get better because you give him more carries. He gets more carries because he was running well in his first ten or so.

Hill had at least 19 carries in 4 games last season. His YPC in those games were 3.3, 4.5, 1.6, and 3.3... it's not magic. He ran for 2.0 YPC in Week 2. He wouldn't have suddenly broken off 4 20-yard runs once he hit 20 carries. Instead, the offense would have been even worse because it would have to suffer another 9 carries at 2.0 YPC.

The offense already looked terrible starting most of it's drives at 2nd and 8. I would prefer to not exacerbate the problem.

[Derrick]

(09-18-2016, 10:11 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I don't like how he doesn't hit the hole with any speed. He tries to be shifty and it just doesn't work out for him. His rookie year he would just run and hit the hole with speed. He doesn't so that anymore. Too much dancing. 

He did that all last season; got a lot of heat for it. I understood the coaches fixed that problem...apparently not yet!

[bengalsturntup926]

You guys just choose to ignore what I stated about the o line and the getting in a rhythm and act like he's been here four years already lol. He had a sophomore slump last year I get that, I think he lost some speed and was a little injured most the time. But I guarantee you we won't get nobody going with how our o line is playing. Bodine needs replaced and Marvin and most fans ignore that. I'm a fan of hill, I wanted to dradt him because he's a big back with speed and a upgrade over bjge. I couldn't stand him as our back. He couldn't break a long one if his life depended on it. Let's just see what happens. If hill is non productive all year, I will say yes draft a running back. But we really need a replacement at center.

[BengalChris]

I just don't see why people are picking on Hill when a) Gio isn't doing much better on running plays and b) the OL's run block is atrocious and c) the run play calling seems to be completely predictable to opponents.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2016, 03:58 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I just don't see why people are picking on Hill when a) Gio isn't doing much better on running plays and b) the OL's run block is atrocious and c) the run play calling seems to be completely predictable to opponents.

Not dealing with meaningful sample sizes yet, but yes he is. Hill is going at 2.7 YPC, Gio is going at 4.2 YPC. Since when is 1.5 YPC better not much better?

EDIT: This is after being 1.1 YPC better than Hill last year, too. Heck, Gio now has a higher YPC than Hill since Hill came into the NFL.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-20-2016, 03:56 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: You guys just choose to ignore what I stated about the o line and the getting in a rhythm and act like he's been here four years already lol. He had a sophomore slump last year I get that, I think he lost some speed and was a little injured most the time. But I guarantee you we won't get nobody going with how our o line is playing. Bodine needs replaced and Marvin and most fans ignore that. I'm a fan of hill, I wanted to dradt him because he's a big back with speed and a upgrade over bjge.  I couldn't stand him as our back. He couldn't break a long one if his life depended on it. Let's just see what happens. If hill is non productive all year, I will say yes draft a running back. But we really need a replacement at center.

Do not think many fans are happy with Bodine's production so far and many of us called for a replacement to be drafted last year as well as this one.  Most of us have even wanted just about anybody to switch to Center too.  

Not hating on Hill yet and believe he is dancing because he is searching for a non existing hole. 

Am down on O-line play so far though. Not saying it can not be fixed but it is becoming worrisome early on.  

But knew the first 6 games were going to be difficult and even predicted a 4-2 or 3-3 record coming out of them per so many new starters this year. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Hill had a FB at LSU, Hill did his best work behind Hewitt here.....it's really just that simple.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-19-2016, 10:16 PM)Nately120 Wrote: You can't expect an entire NFL franchise to sit around and wait until a guy who gets 2 yards per carry to turn it on.

If a franchise will wait all this time for a giant Estonian to finally "turn it on" with practically no evidence of it ever clicking to date, that same franchise will most certainly sit around for a guy who gets 2 YPC but had a good rookie year to turn it on.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2016, 04:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: Hill had a FB at LSU, Hill did his best work behind Hewitt here.....it's really just that simple.

Don't think it is that simple at all.

He ran "behind" Hewitt last year and still did poorly. I put behind in quotations because Hill seems to ignore his lead blocker a lot when he does have one.

[Fresno B]

I got a lot of negative reps for saying this exact thing last year. Very weird board.

[fredtoast]

(09-20-2016, 08:15 PM)Fresno B Wrote: I got a lot of negative reps for saying this exact thing last year. Very weird board.

I don't think you are understanding what you are reading.

How many people are saying it is time to move on from Hill?

[fortyyearfan]

(09-20-2016, 12:38 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Exactly, Nate. People are looking at this all wrong. Hill doesn't magically get better because you give him more carries. He gets more carries because he was running well in his first ten or so.

Hill had at least 19 carries in 4 games last season. His YPC in those games were 3.3, 4.5, 1.6, and 3.3... it's not magic. He ran for 2.0 YPC in Week 2. He wouldn't have suddenly broken off 4 20-yard runs once he hit 20 carries. Instead, the offense would have been even worse because it would have to suffer another 9 carries at 2.0 YPC.

The offense already looked terrible starting most of it's drives at 2nd and 8. I would prefer to not exacerbate the problem.

Its not the rbs fault,its the stinkin O-line folks.It all starts with them and you can not and will not win enough games unless you can establish the fu----ing running game.This offensive line is good at pass blocking,but they SUCK at the run game and you would think it would be just the opposite.Unless they get this fixed,this team is going to watching the super bowl just like all of us.This line should be addressed Now and I am one who believes this line is a bust.

With the reigning champs coming in here and believe this they are friggin super good on d and o.This game has to be won by our team,no excuses.Figure it out and if not and we lose,this is going to be a long long season.Its a good thing I have a lot of wood to cut and some deer hunting,I am a little worried.Having so many new guys its going to be a challenge to get it done and we were told that our coaching staff was so improved by all these wonderful coaches and we still cannot beat the pissburgs idiots. I SO HATE THE STEALERS,SO SO MUCH.The nfl pundits are picking them to win it all,that would be seven super bowls and we have none.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2016, 09:11 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: Its not the rbs fault,its the stinkin O-line folks.It all starts with them and you can not and will not win enough games unless you can establish the fu----ing running game.This offensive line is good at pass blocking,but they SUCK at the run game and you would think it would be just the opposite.Unless they get this fixed,this team is going to watching the super bowl just like all of us.This line should be addressed Now and I am one who believes this line is a bust.

Is the OL good? No. Is the OL as bad as Hill's performance the last two years? No.

This is the exact same OL that Giovani Bernard has ran behind and gotten 4.7 YPC the last two years is the one Hill has gotten 3.5 YPC behind. Something's wrong with Hill, be it a change in style, a fluke stretch in 2014, some kind of undisclosed injury, or something.

You saying it's not the RB, it's the OL make it sound just like the Colts when they first got Trent Richardson. "It's not his fault he's running for 2.9 YPC! The OL sucks!" meanwhile Donald Brown was running behind the same OL that year for 5.3 YPC.

As I said in my first post, I am not saying cut Hill. I am saying massively adjust expectations and change his role into something more realistic, like a short yardage and goal line back.

[Bengalholic]

(09-20-2016, 09:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Is the OL good? No. Is the OL as bad as Hill's performance the last two years? No.

This is the exact same OL that Giovani Bernard has ran behind and gotten 4.7 YPC the last two years is the one Hill has gotten 3.5 YPC behind. Something's wrong with Hill, be it a change in style, a fluke stretch in 2014, some kind of undisclosed injury, or something.

You saying it's not the RB, it's the OL make it sound just like the Colts when they first got Trent Richardson. "It's not his fault he's running for 2.9 YPC! The OL sucks!" meanwhile Donald Brown was running behind the same OL that year for 5.3 YPC.

As I said in my first post, I am not saying cut Hill. I am saying massively adjust expectations and change his role into something more realistic, like a short yardage and goal line back.

In 2013, Gio failed to reach 4 ypc 7 different times, and averaged 2.5 or less in each of the last 3 games.

In 2014, Gio averaged 3.5 ypc or less 8 times in just 13 games, including 2.8 ypc or less 5 times!

In 2015, his best year, he still averaged 3 ypc or less in 4 of his last 7 games.

I'm not making this a Jeremy vs Gio thing, I'm a big fan of both. I'm just saying that the O-line, in my opinion, deserves their fair share of the blame as well.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2016, 09:42 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In 2013, Gio failed to reach 4 ypc 7 different times, and averaged 2.5 or less in each of the last 3 games.

In 2014, Gio averaged 3.5 ypc or less 8 times in just 13 games, including 2.8 ypc or less 5 times!

In 2015, his best year, he still averaged 3 ypc or less in 4 of his last 7 games.

I'm not making this a Jeremy vs Gio thing, I'm a big fan of both. I'm just showing that the issues with the run game are a lot bigger than the RB(s).

First line of the post you quoted was "Is the OL good? No." so I agree with you that there is other issues, I just don't think other people can ignore that Hill is indeed a part of those issues.

In 2015 Gio averaged 4.8ypc or higher in 10 of his 16 games. Hill did that 2 times in 16 games. That implies it's not just all OL. Can't be ignored.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-20-2016, 07:39 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't think it is that simple at all.

He ran "behind" Hewitt last year and still did poorly. I put behind in quotations because Hill seems to ignore his lead blocker a lot when he does have one.

I'm no Hill apologist....neither he...nor Hewitt were very effective last year.  Hewitt whiffed quite a bit....and he wasn't on the field as much as he was the year before as I recall.  Eifert was injured that season.  My memory could most certainly be off on that...but it seems he played more.  Maybe so....maybe not....just how I remember it.

I know this though...as piss poor as the o line has played....BOTH backs and Andy would benefit from a blocking back !

[Derrick]

(09-19-2016, 11:57 AM)Housh Wrote: Bro I don't even think he looked good week 1

Dude looks workable and in todays NFL you can find a star RB fairly fast if you try for a good 2 to 3 years. Gio is good but Hill has lost it man. I cant explain it. Maybe the line is failing him but its the damn near same 5 guys on the line that have been there since he was drafted so WTF

They seem to run mostly to the  left where the better seasoned players (Whitt for one) are located and they still don't get yards...what does that suggest? Besides poor OL & RB coaching.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-20-2016, 10:01 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm no Hill apologist....neither he...nor Hewitt were very effective last year.  Hewitt whiffed quite a bit....and he wasn't on the field as much as he was the year before as I recall.  Eifert was injured that season.  My memory could most certainly be off on that...but it seems he played more.  Maybe so....maybe not....just how I remember it.

Hewitt played 43.9% of the offensive snaps in 2014 and 35.5% of the offensive snaps in 2015*. So bad news, you're still getting old. Good news, not too old to recall that yet. Lol

Partially could be explained by the whiffing. If you're less effective, you get less snaps, etc, but he still played a non-insignificant number of snaps.


*Hewitt missed a game in 2015.