Last 3 Years of 1st and 2nd rounders

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-17-2016, 08:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The Bengals have had excellent drafts since approximately 2009 and Marvin Lewis does a good job at evaluating and acquiring talent -- but the Cincinnati coaching staff stinks at developing it.  I'm not upset at Cedric Ogbuehi, Russell Bodine, or Darqueze Dennard because these studs were beasts in college.  However, I want to pimp-slap some coaches for ruining the technique learned in great college programs.  Cedric was amazing at A&M, Russell blocked masterfully for Giovani Bernard at North Carolina, and Michigan State fans didn't call Darqueze "no fly zone" for nothing.

Developing the talent is what's missing.

Yep.....if they don't come out pro ready....the Merry Band of Tenured Bums sure as shit ain't making it happen.

[Benton]

(10-17-2016, 06:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So we can't draft and we don't sign any good free agents......

Yet the reason our coaches are so bad is because they can't win with "one of the most talented rosters in the league"?

Anyone see a problem with this argument?

yes. The problem is you're lumping three separate arguments into one.

[Derrick]

(10-17-2016, 12:04 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: We always hear "first round picks don't have to play, then sitting the bench is a good thing".  Yet you look at the more successful teams in the league, teams like the Patriots and Seahawks, and their top picks are expected to contribute immediately.  The problem is that these guys sit their first year or two, then we are expected to believe that year three is "actually their rookie year because they did not play earlier".  So then it comes time to extend and no one really knows how good the guy is.  Maybe this way of doing things is right, but it has not yet led to the ultimate goal.

But it might explain a lot about what has happened to this team.

[Derrick]

(10-17-2016, 09:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep.....if they don't come out pro ready....the Merry Band of Tenured Bums sure as shit ain't making it happen.

"And that's the truuff". I wonder what kind of discussions are being held in the F.O. these days?
Oh, the stupid fans are up in arms again; The fans don't understand how really well the coaches are coaching; Our draft picks just need a few more years to get NFL ready; What's a Free Agent?

[wolfkaosaun]

And here's some players that have been drafted the last 2-3 years from Zimmer:

Teddy Bridgewater. Anthony Barr. Trae Waynes. Eric Kendricks. Jerick McKinnon. Stefon Diggs. TJ Clemmings.

And let's not forget the players they drafted this year.

Even Gruden is getting play from his players he just drafted in Matt Jones and Crowder.

Since 2014, Gruden and Zimmer have gone for a combined 29-12 record.

Maybe we're over-looking the influence that Gruden and Zimmer had on our drafts. Hue Jackson included, but it's too early with him. Although, he's helped developed a ton of players down there thus far.

[fredtoast]

(10-17-2016, 09:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: .Cook....one good year.  Andrews was serviceable....Collins was decent....and Boling was a highly regarded prospect in that draft.  You need the links AGAIN?

Cook was good until he got injured.

Collins got a 5 year $30 million contract.  Too bad other O-line coaches could not get as much out of him as PA.

Stacy andrews did not even play football in college, but PA coached him up enough to get a 6 year $39 million contract.  Again other o-line coach could not get out of him what Paul did.

Boling was a 4th round draft pick.  That is not really 'highly regarded'.

[fredtoast]

(10-17-2016, 10:29 PM)Benton Wrote:

yes. The problem is you're lumping three separate arguments into one.

No I am not.

How can we have the best talent in the league if we can't draft and don't sign free agents?

[Hammerstripes]

(10-17-2016, 03:52 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: Alexander sucks at evaluating talent.  I can't think of one of his projects that panned out.  Whit, Zeitler and Whit were legit out of college, the rest???

Sucks at evaluating talent?  I'm sure he had a say in drafting the following players:

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Andrew Whitworth
Kevin Zietler
Andre Smith

You can't  have it both ways - if he's not good at evaluating talent, then how did those guys turn into NFL starters?

Also, you would have to say that the following "projects" panned out:

Stacy Andrews
Collins

as they both signed big deals with other teams.

[Hammerstripes]

(10-17-2016, 09:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: Here we go again.....Nate Livings was atrocious....Cook....one good year.  Andrews was serviceable....Collins was decent....and Boling was a highly regarded prospect in that draft.  You need the links AGAIN?

Boling was highly regarded?  Come on, he was a 4th round pick.

[fredtoast]

(10-17-2016, 08:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The Bengals have had excellent drafts since approximately 2009 and Marvin Lewis does a good job at evaluating and acquiring talent -- but the Cincinnati coaching staff stinks at developing it. 

(10-17-2016, 09:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep.....if they don't come out pro ready....the Merry Band if Tenured Bums sure as shit ain't making it happen.

Geno Atkins....4th round
Clint Boling.....4th round
Marvin Jones...5th round
Mo Sanu.........3rd round
Josh Shaw......4th round
George Iloka...5th round
Burfict............UDFA

[*michaelsean*]

(10-17-2016, 04:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They drafted to replace high-priced veterans...Newman, Hall, Smith, and Whitworth. It was largely financially motivated.

They also draft players at positions early that cost a lot of money in free agency...so they get cheap labor for 5 years.

Not really cheap if you pay for 5 years and get 2or 3 years of service.

[fredtoast]

(10-17-2016, 11:33 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Not really cheap if you pay for 5 years and get 2or 3 years of service.

Yes it is cheap.

A first round CB will make less on his entire 4 year deal than a top CB will make in just one season on a freeagent contract.

[tlotharw]

(10-17-2016, 11:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I am not.

How can we have the best talent in the league if we can't draft and don't sign free agents?

How can we have put together the best talent in the league and be so inconsequential?

[fredtoast]

(10-17-2016, 11:45 PM)tlotharw Wrote: How can we have put together the best talent in the league and be so inconsequential?

Why can't you answer the question I asked?

[Benton]

(10-17-2016, 11:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: And here's some players that have been drafted the last 2-3 years from Zimmer:

Teddy Bridgewater. Anthony Barr. Trae Waynes. Eric Kendricks. Jerick McKinnon. Stefon Diggs. TJ Clemmings.

And let's not forget the players they drafted this year.

Even Gruden is getting play from his players he just drafted in Matt Jones and Crowder.

Since 2014, Gruden and Zimmer have gone for a combined 29-12 record.

Maybe we're over-looking the influence that Gruden and Zimmer had on our drafts. Hue Jackson included, but it's too early with him. Although, he's helped developed a ton of players down there thus far.

I think that's a big part of it. Mainly with zimmer. That's one reason I wanted to keep him, he seems to get the most out of his people.

(10-17-2016, 11:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I am not.

How can we have the best talent in the league if we can't draft and don't sign free agents?

So we can't draft and we don't sign any good free agents......

 Yet the reason our coaches are so bad is because they can't win with "one of the most talented rosters in the league"?

hey, I'm ok with calling out some of the generalities, but you're lumping them all together like it's common for fans to complain about drafting, free agents, coaching and winning. There's more than a few Bengals fans, you're going to have more than a few reasons people point to our lack of success. Its disingenuous to act like fans unhappy with the direction are so scattered they'd go in all three directions at once.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-17-2016, 11:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Geno Atkins....4th round
Clint Boling.....4th round
Marvin Jones...5th round
Mo Sanu.........3rd round
Josh Shaw......4th round
George Iloka...5th round
Burfict............UDFA

That's an important list -- but none of these players were brought to Cincinnati under Paul Guenther or Ken Zampese with the possible exception of Josh Shaw.  These are all players "coached up" by Mike Zimmer, Jay Gruden, or Hue Jackson.  Your point is well-taken though because many of these players, indeed, some of the best talent on the Cincinnati roster, were taken well past the first and second rounds.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-17-2016, 11:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Cook was good until he got injured.

Collins got a 5 year $30 million contract.  Too bad other O-line coaches could not get as much out of him as PA.

Stacy andrews did not even play football in college, but PA coached him up enough to get a 6 year $39 million contract.  Again other o-line coach could not get out of him what Paul did.

Boling was a 4th round draft pick.  That is not really 'highly regarded'.

"Clint Boling (born May 9, 1989) is an American football guard for the Cincinnati Bengals of the National Football League. He played college football at Georgia. He was considered one of the top guard prospects for the 2011 NFL Draft."



 "As a senior in 2010 he was named an All-American by Pro Football Weekly"[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Football_Weekly][/url]









Yay.....just because some dumbass GM took a look at spot work by a player and overreached and overpaid for some scrubs, we should anoint Ray Manzerek as the next Lombardi.

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2016, 08:56 AM)Wyche Wrote: "Clint Boling (born May 9, 1989) is an American football guard for the Cincinnati Bengals of the National Football League. He played college football at Georgia. He was considered one of the top guard prospects for the 2011 NFL Draft."



 "As a senior in 2010 he was named an All-American by Pro Football Weekly"[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Football_Weekly][/url]









Yay.....just because some dumbass GM took a look at spot work by a player and overreached and overpaid for some scrubs, we should anoint Ray Manzerek as the next Lombardi.

No matter how you try to spin it a 4th round pick is not "highly rated".

What does "one of the top" even mean?  "One of the top 10"?  "One of the top 20"?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-17-2016, 11:18 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Boling was highly regarded?  Come on, he was a 4th round pick.

Sure was, read the scouting reports.....I've linked to them many times.....fred thinks we have short memories apparently.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2016, 09:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No matter how you try to spin it a 4th round pick is not "highly rated".

What does "one of the top" even mean?  "One of the top 10"?  "One of the top 20"?

It's not spin.....sometimes position groups have a stronger presence in the draft and others fall....it's pretty common.  I mean, I've linked you his scouting reports numerous times, and he was an All American.....you want to see them again, or are you content to quit your charade now?


AS for your argument....you say the coaching is superb, the talent they drafted is superb, and everything about the team and FO is top notch, yet, they sit at 2-4 (ran off the field twice), Andy Dalton is on pace to pe sacked like 56 times this year, near the bottom in Red Zone efficiency, and haven't won a playoff game in 25 years.  So, by your own words, I guess we're just unlucky?