The defense is pretty bad this year

[jj22]

(10-30-2016, 06:24 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: It's all scheme related. Guenther has harnessed his inner Bresnahan this year. 10-15 yards off receivers every third down? Wtf do you think is going to happen!? That seriously cannot make it easier for opposing offenses.

I think our LB's have struggled the most out of the bunch. Even Burfict. The secondary has struggled, but Williams is playing out of position. I think he's doing what we should have been expecting him to do. We need a roaming fs. That's why we miss Nelson. Hopefully WJIII comes back. All isn't lost with the secondary when healthy, and with some help in the draft.  It's not like Guenther can't coach. I think he can. I just don't think he's getting much help. He can't look to Marvin. He's never been able to fix our D.  

Vance would be a good HC candidate if we ever made a move.

[*wildcats forever*]

(10-30-2016, 06:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Aside from the obvious answer of coaches.  The combined loss of Vance Joseph and Reggie Nelson is absolutely killing us.  It has become more than abundantly clear that Shawn Williams could have used another year as the "understudy", but why did he look so good and ready to step up last year?  Heck, even George Iloka looks like he has taken two steps backwards this year, why is that?  The answer is Vance Joseph.  And without Reggie Nelson's leadership on the field, the secondary just looks out of sync.

All really good points, but the defense as a whole looks out of sync to me - not just the secondary. There's no denying the talent of Geno and Carlos, but the line is a bubble off this year too. And Vinnie Rey is the sole consistently decent LB so far this season. Topping it off are the damned boneheaded penalties every week. Talented players, but undisciplined and scatter-brained looking. It sure feels like this defensive coaching staff has no clear vision, or the wrong vision if they have one. I know I can't turn back the clock, but I really want last year's staff back after watching this train wreck so far.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 06:31 PM)samhain Wrote: Coaches take some responsibility for the stupid plays and lack of discipline.  Other than that, I blame players and too many consecutive crap drafts.  There are few to no young guys on the defense that are ready to step in and take the place of aging vets that need to be displaced to make this team better.  There's nobody there to replace Peko, Maualuga, or the long string of tired vets at the SAM spot.  None of the highly drafted corners are any better than Adam Jones even as he loses ground to age.  Shawn Williams was not ready to replace Nelson.  

To be honest, I even lay some of the penalties at the feet of the players.  Some of the guys doing this stuff have been around long enough to stop repeating these lessons.  We re-sign old players to keep continuity and show young guys the way, but this season it seems that they are just as stupid as the young kids.

I'd say that Billings and Vigil were drafted with thoughts of them eventually taking over for Peko and Maualuga in mind.

[*jason*]

(10-30-2016, 06:21 PM)samhain Wrote: No, the 5 or 6 losses were's about to eat will do that just fine by themselves.  This tie won't mean anything.

This...

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 06:44 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: All really good points, but the defense as a whole looks out of sync to me - not just the secondary. There's no denying the talent of Geno and Carlos, but the line is a bubble off this year too. And Vinnie Rey is the sole consistently decent LB so far this season. Topping it off are the damned boneheaded penalties every week. Talented players, but undisciplined and scatter-brained looking. It sure feels like this defensive coaching staff has no clear vision, or the wrong vision if they have one. I know I can't turn back the clock, but I really want last year's staff back after watching this train wreck so far.

I get what you are saying, but I chose to emphasize the secondary as my point of focus on the defense for a reason.  The reason I feel the secondary, more specifically the Safety play, has been the key letdown this season on defense, is because of the effect their play has on the perceived effectiveness of pass rush generated by the DL. 

From what I have been seeing, they have been generating pressure at about the same rate as they did last year.  Sure, there are days like today, when Carlos Dunlap got stonewalled much of the day by a guy playing well above his pay grade.  But, he still deflected a pass that should have been a gift INT for Will Clarke that would have essentially sealed the win in regulation.  Look at how many times Cousins got whacked just after he released the ball that completed a pass.  That's not because Cousins is so dang awesome of a QB, or the DL wasn't good enough to get him, as much as it was because the Safeties were out of position or blew a coverage responsibility leaving a man open.

The biggest difference on the DL play this year (pass rushing wise), is that they're not getting the coverage sacks that they were getting last year.  Thus why I chose to point my finger at the secondary.

As for the rushing defense, that is all on the poor LB play.

[sonofstat]

(10-30-2016, 06:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'd say that Billings and Vigil were drafted with thoughts of them eventually taking over for Peko and Maualuga in mind.

Agreed...

..same as Dennard was drafted to replace Jones/DreK 
..Ogbuehi was drafted to replace Andre Smith
..same as Fisher to potentially replace Whit/Zeit
..same as Williams was to replace Nelson

..fact is that these draft picks which look good on paper have led to a drop off in talent this season. 

It may primarily be coaching as some say but I just look at the talent level and believe we are simply weaker in too many positions this year

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 07:02 PM)sonofstat Wrote: Agreed...

..same as Dennard was drafted to replace Jones/DreK 
..Ogbuehi was drafted to replace Andre Smith
..same as Fisher to potentially replace Whit/Zeit
..same as Williams was to replace Nelson

..fact is that these draft picks which look good on paper have led to a drop off in talent this season. 

It may primarily be coaching as some say but I just look at the talent level and believe we are simply weaker in too many positions this year

I agree with you, these "value" picks have been killing our roster.  I'd like to see them target specific players that they have put in the scouting time to know for sure that they are going to be good fits in what the team is doing.  Even at the cost of moving up or down in the draft, and possibly sacrifice drafting an extra bench warmer or two.

[Butchie Tiger]

Peko is done, I can't believe how useless that fat ass is.

[samhain]

(10-30-2016, 06:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'd say that Billings and Vigil were drafted with thoughts of them eventually taking over for Peko and Maualuga in mind.

Vigil either isn't ready or sucks.  I lost a bit of hope for him when I saw him with his thumb up his ass while Crowell scored the goal line touchdown last Sunday.  He was literally right there and just stood like a statue.  It's like he was afraid.  

As far as Billings, we'll see.  I'll refer to the Geno Atkins knee injury and guess that a man that size isn't going to be 100% for another season or two.  Not necessarily the team's fault, but this option is still a big question mark to me.

[THE PISTONS]

Gilberry was a bigger loss than people expected too. He could get pressure on the QB from the side opposite Dunlap.

Teams can just double Atkins and chip Dunlap to slow them down.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 07:20 PM)samhain Wrote: Vigil either isn't ready or sucks.  I lost a bit of hope for him when I saw him with his thumb up his ass while Crowell scored the goal line touchdown last Sunday.  He was literally right there and just stood like a statue.  It's like he was afraid.  

As far as Billings, we'll see.  I'll refer to the Geno Atkins knee injury and guess that a man that size isn't going to be 100% for another season or two.  Not necessarily the team's fault, but this option is still a big question mark to me.

Thus, my post about the "value" picks are killing our roster.  Picking player a, b, or c, simply because some jaggov had them highly rated, and they are sitting two rounds later than their original projection, is simply not working.  Sure, you can hit on some players that slip through the cracks... if you did the proper scouting and put in the time to know if they are genuinely a good fit for your team.

I'm curious as to what parallel universe that Fisher and Ogbuehi were the perfect fit for offensive tackle on the Cincinnati Bengals to warrant spending our top two picks on them, when there were a ton of players that could have benefitted the team immediately on the board?

[samhain]

(10-30-2016, 07:13 PM)Butchie Tiger Wrote: Peko is done, I can't believe how useless that fat ass is.

He'll get  3 years and 10 mil next year.  He just brings so much to the locker room, lol.

[*wildcats forever*]

(10-30-2016, 07:02 PM)sonofstat Wrote: Agreed...

..same as Dennard was drafted to replace Jones/DreK 
..Ogbuehi was drafted to replace Andre Smith
..same as Fisher to potentially replace Whit/Zeit
..same as Williams was to replace Nelson

..fact is that these draft picks which look good on paper have led to a drop off in talent this season. 

It may primarily be coaching as some say but I just look at the talent level and believe we are simply weaker in too many positions this year

Yep, and they're all on the defensive side it seems. This upcoming off-season might be one where we will need to look at free agency and a trade or two to get back to a more 'competitive' level. Then hope the new coaches can actually have them perform. If not, that Super Bowl may have to wait another year or two ....

[THE PISTONS]

(10-30-2016, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thus, my post about the "value" picks are killing our roster.  Picking player a, b, or c, simply because some jaggov had them highly rated, and they are sitting two rounds later than their original projection, is simply not working.  Sure, you can hit on some players that slip through the cracks... if you did the proper scouting and put in the time to know if they are genuinely a good fit for your team.

I'm curious as to what parallel universe that Fisher and Ogbuehi were the perfect fit for offensive tackle on the Cincinnati Bengals to warrant spending our top two picks on them, when there were a ton of players that could have benefitted the team immediately on the board?

Totally agree! Ogbuehi looks like a prototype OT with his height and lean, muscular body...but his on-field play was bad.

When is it ever a good idea to draft a player in the 1st Round that had a major knee injury??? I mean, who thinks that is a good idea?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-30-2016, 07:31 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Yep, and they're all on the defensive side it seems. This upcoming off-season might be one where we will need to look at free agency and a trade or two to get back to a more 'competitive' level. Then hope the new coaches can actually have them perform. If not, that Super Bowl may have to wait another year or two ....

Yep. That's the thing...make no mistake...we're looking at a partial rebuild of the team.

Our draft picks just aren't panning out so we'll have to dip into free agency IF we want to compete.

Signing the 34-year old veteran to a 1 year deal that the team always seems to do and the former 1st Round busts won't cut it.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 07:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Totally agree! Ogbuehi looks like a prototype OT with his height and lean, muscular body...but his on-field play was bad.

When is it ever a good idea to draft a player in the 1st Round that had a major knee injury??? I mean, who thinks that is a good idea?

Where I come from, offensive linemen are not lean an sculpted bodies.  We used to have a saying, in regard to well built dudes that play out of position;  Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane..

[samhain]

(10-30-2016, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thus, my post about the "value" picks are killing our roster.  Picking player a, b, or c, simply because some jaggov had them highly rated, and they are sitting two rounds later than their original projection, is simply not working.  Sure, you can hit on some players that slip through the cracks... if you did the proper scouting and put in the time to know if they are genuinely a good fit for your team.

I'm curious as to what parallel universe that Fisher and Ogbuehi were the perfect fit for offensive tackle on the Cincinnati Bengals to warrant spending our top two picks on them, when there were a ton of players that could have benefitted the team immediately on the board?

I was smarting over the Ogbuehi/Fisher picks.  I lost my damn mind over them on the old board.  They are both pretty much the opposite of what we normally have at OT.  You go from Willie Anderson to Andre Smith, two big hogs that got it done to a guy that looks like a power forward.   

The things that's bothered me for years is their aversion to taking d-linemen early.  They've coasted on the success they had with Geno, Dunlap and MJ for too long.  They've had two bust second rounders in Hunt and Still and then nothing.  It was a matter of time before this caught up to them.  A great d-line can mask a lot of problems on defense.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-30-2016, 07:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Where I come from, offensive linemen are not lean an sculpted bodies.  We used to have a saying, in regard to well built dudes that play out of position;  Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane..

Agreed.

What bothers me about the Bengals draft strategy is they don't go best player available in the 1st Round typically...they look at what players will be free agents in the upcoming 2 years of so that would cost a lot of money to retain...and try to draft a replacement.

ie They use the draft as a way to avoid free agency and get cheap, cost-controlled talent.

It hasn't worked out. They could have retained Andre Smith and instead drafted a player that would have contributed last year.

People will say that I'm just hating on the Bengals strategy...but we were close to a Super Bowl-level team last year. Maybe if we drafted an impact player that could have contributed Year 1 it would have put us over the top.

Instead we drafted 2 players with our top 2 picks that we knew would 'redshirt' for a year or 2.

[samhain]

(10-30-2016, 07:31 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Yep, and they're all on the defensive side it seems. This upcoming off-season might be one where we will need to look at free agency and a trade or two to get back to a more 'competitive' level. Then hope the new coaches can actually have them perform. If not, that Super Bowl may have to wait another year or two ....

I hope they have a change in philosophy when it comes to FA.  If they shed contracts like Peko, Maualuga, and Dre then they should have some cap to sign some halfway decent players.  If the team was in full rebuild mode, it might benefit them not to blow money on FAs, but they're in a place where they need to make hay while the sun is still shining i.e. Dalton and Green are still relatively young.  

Honestly the only way I see them even pursuing b-grade FAs is with a new HC and some staff changes.  Marvin got quite a few guys signed his first year in James, Thornton, and Hardy.  Maybe a new HC would get the same benefit.  Otherwise, I expect more of the same "Bengal Way" of doing things.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2016, 07:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agreed.

What bothers me about the Bengals draft strategy is they don't go best player available in the 1st Round typically...they look at what players will be free agents in the upcoming 2 years of so that would cost a lot of money to retain...and try to draft a replacement.

ie They use the draft as a way to avoid free agency and get cheap, cost-controlled talent.

It hasn't worked out. They could have retained Andre Smith and instead drafted a player that would have contributed last year.

People will say that I'm just hating on the Bengals strategy...but we were close to a Super Bowl-level team last year. Maybe if we drafted an impact player that could have contributed Year 1 it would have put us over the top.

Instead we drafted 2 players with our top 2 picks that we knew would 'redshirt' for a year or 2.

Agree, drafting not one, but TWO freaking' busts at OT, with back to back picks, at the top of the draft, had to be the stupidest move ever.  (aside from Mike Brown running Sam Wyche out of town, of course) 

They could have, should have drafted a quality Center, a true stud LB, an intelligent Safety...