Defensive Personnel changes coming?

[Hammerstripes]

(11-01-2016, 04:52 PM)Sabretooth Wrote:
When they practice it's against other Bengals.
When games are played it's against NFL talent.
How did we look against the cowboys or patriots ?, or redskins passing game ?
Wonder how our coaches grade our players after reviewing game film ?

And it's pretty easy to figure out based on practice who your best players are OR who the players are that are ready to play.

I've seen enough mental errors from the secondary leading to wide open WRs.  I'm guessing anyone that is young isn't quite ready to play due to the mental aspect of the game.

[phil413]

(11-01-2016, 03:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'll believe it when I see it, and if your replacement isn't any better, then there's no reason to do it.

The first part was my reaction as well, but I'll take this quote quote as a mini-victory just for a Bengals staff member bringing it up: “We have a lot of guys here who have been fixtures in our system for a long time,” Guenther said. “But it’s like I told them, it’s a production business. Even though you’ve been kind of a guy that’s been around here and I think there is a younger player or somebody else that can do it better at this point, whether it be for 15 snaps, I have to look at that.”


I hear where you're coming from on replacements.  No reason to throw a guy like Vigil into major reps if he isn't ready just to shake things up, but if he's caught up to be considered to take reps from someone then hey why not.  When it gets to the point to where you see guys getting complacent being an issue, it's also a risk to play them when they're unproductive when a player that is close could be more productive.  So yeah, like others I'd like to see a bit more of the Vigil, Smith, Clarke and Williams types if they're close.  Even if the vets in question don't improve their play, at least Guenther isn't afraid to speak out.  His system isn't broken, and he earned a point for me on that quote alone as a Marvin replacement............IF he does something.   

[lostpoet2]

I think this summarizes everyone's observations and hopefully is what Guenther is getting at:

potentially more playing time: Clarke, Sims/Williams, V. Rey/Vigil, Smith, perhaps S. Williams at LB
potentially less playing time: MJ, Peko, Maualuga/Dansby, S. Williams at safety

[Sled21]

What's with the Dansby hate....he's leading the team in tackles. As for Vigil, I hope he gets caught up and becomes what we all hope he will be, but he was beaten like a bass drum in pre season....

[bengalguy71]

(11-01-2016, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Coaches play the best players they have exactly because it is their neck on the line.

Coaches see all of these players everyday in practice.  They know which ones are best.

This will probably fall on deaf ears and be poo pooed because many seem to think the coaches are turds, of course that's because of losses and poor play.

I support this statement and have said it before.

They not only see these guys day to day at practice but are also dissecting tapes as well.

The only problem I see is how much say so does Guenther have?

Meaning, will Mike Brown sit still for someone making 2 mill a year sitting on the bench while a rookie at 500G starts in his place?  (Totally hypothetical with the figures before any of the statisticians in here go bonkers).

He said in the article ' ... even if it's for 15 snaps ...'

Just saying.

[jj22]

Dansby leading team in tackles after 15 yard gains. He's missed so many tackles it embarrassing.

[sonofstat]

(11-01-2016, 05:39 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: This will probably fall on deaf ears and be poo pooed because many seem to think the coaches are turds, of course that's because of losses and poor play.

I support this statement and have said it  before.

They not only see these guys day to day at practice but are also dissecting tapes as well.

The only problem I see is how much say so does Guenther have?

Meaning, will Mike Brown sit still for someone making 2 mill a year sitting on the bench while a rookie at 500G starts in his place?  (Totally hypothetical with the figures before any of the statisticians in here go bonkers).

He said in the article ' ... even if it's for 15 snaps ...'

Just saying.

Yep, that's why I'm particularly interested on whether the sentiment Guenther expressed goes into the secondary.

Before the season we invested in 3,4 and 5 year contract extension for Jones, Williams and Iloka.  You could argue the only guy we're not tied into is DreK and some would argue he has been the most consistent starter in the secondary this year.

If any of the three guys you invested in are the incumbents perceived as not producing by Paulie G and they lose some snaps where does that leave us?  

It would certainly either call into question the decision to extend them early (and not give some of Williams/Iloka's money to Reggie to try and keep him) or it has to shine an uncomfortable light on Kevin Coyle.

More likely scenario for me is that any increase in playing time comes in the front 7 where age and declining production is the bigger issue

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-01-2016, 04:29 PM)Wyche Wrote: All good points, but with Peko and MJ getting a little bit up in years, I wonder if they wouldn't be more effective rested coming off the bench. Sims is solid against the run, and Clarke has generated some pressure in somewhat limited action.

Agreed, I think Peko and MJ need to be in a bigger rotation.

MJ is in on 78.4% of our snaps this season. That's more than any of our other defensive lienman. 5th most on defense.

Peko has been getting more of a rotation. It's increased over time. But would like a 50-50 with him and Sims. However, they also put Hunt at DT from time to time. But they usually let Hunt come in at Atkins' position.

I think we would have seen Billings get a significant amount of snaps this season. But, in all honesty we are not as deep a team as we once believed.

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-01-2016, 05:55 PM)jj22 Wrote: Dansby leading team in tackles after 15 yard gains. He's missed so many tackles it embarrassing.

To be fair, this entire defense has been missing tackles.

He's been a disappointment, that's for sure. But they aren't using him to his strengths by any means. He's a zone coverage LB, not a man coverage LB. We've seen him get beat a lot in those situations. Dansby isn't fitting the scheme.

[CoreyK]

Here are the Defenses Key problems with personnel:

1. Dansby
2. Peko
3. Maualuga
4. Dansby
5. A. Jones
6. G. Iloka
7. S. Williams
8. M. Johnson

Only "8" problem areas on defense.  Not sure they have enough "replacements" to fix 8 issues. 

Only possible solutions I see is: 

Move Shawn Williams to Nickel LB and move Derron Smith into starting Free Safety spot.  Move George Iloka to Strong Safety where he is actually a good player.  Get Dansby off the field in Nickel situations.  In Nickel situations keep plugging in Will Clarke at DT.  Get Peko off the field in ALL situations. Get Rey M. off the field in all scenarios and replace with either N. Vigil or V. Rey.  They do not have any adequate replacement for Adam Jones so we just have to hope he starts to play better?  I suppose we could bench him and go with Shaw and Dennard but they are not an improvement. 

** Maybe sign Taylor Mays to help at Nickel LB***

[Socal Bengals fan]

MJ, was so bad in Tampa Bay they cut his ass after one season. Bengals then sign him to huge contract because ....well I have no idea. Peko blows and Vigil should bexpect playing rather than Dansby. SS Williams sucks ass a cone would be more productive and instinctual than him.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-01-2016, 05:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: And it's pretty easy to figure out based on practice who your best players are OR who the players are that are ready to play.

I've seen enough mental errors from the secondary leading to wide open WRs.  I'm guessing anyone that is young isn't quite ready to play due to the mental aspect of the game.

I always thought that the Bengals went by who's contract had the higher dollar amount listed on it?  (tongue in cheek) 

As for the secondary, I completely agree.  I feel that is coaching, as Coyle just doesn't have those guys in tune, like Vance Joseph did.  Particularly the Safeties.

[Pat5775]

Going back to my original post: Can someone explain to me why Guenther coaches players to play 10-15 yards off receivers? Or why Bresnahan did it for that matter? What is the benefit of playing extremely soft coverage most of the time? Someone please enlighten me... Because it has looked as stupid as it sounds lately.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2016, 06:01 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Agreed, I think Peko and MJ need to be in a bigger rotation.

MJ is in on 78.4% of our snaps this season. That's more than any of our other defensive lienman. 5th most on defense.

Peko has been getting more of a rotation. It's increased over time. But would like a 50-50 with him and Sims. However, they also put Hunt at DT from time to time. But they usually let Hunt come in at Atkins' position.

I think we would have seen Billings get a significant amount of snaps this season. But, in all honesty we are not as deep a team as we once believed.

Absolutely.

I knew MJs snap count was up there, but wow.  I too would like to see more Sims, and have seen Hunt spelling Geno.  I would also agree with others that it seems zero push up front is what is the biggest problem on the defense.  I also think we have taken a step back in over the top coverage.  That said, a healthier pass rush would alleviate that somewhat.  In all honesty, we're not getting good push from EITHER line.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2016, 06:27 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Going back to my original post: Can someone explain to me why Guenther coaches players to play 10-15 yards off receivers? Or why Bresnahan did it for that matter? What is the benefit of playing extremely soft coverage most of the time? Someone please enlighten me... Because it has looked as stupid as it sounds lately.

You don't get beat on the deep ball as often, but you sure as hell get killed underneath.  I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of pressure up front.....which kind of forces your coverage to "keep everything in front of them" instead of pressing and taking more risk.  Perhaps someone has a different view on it?

[Pat5775]

(11-01-2016, 06:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: You don't get beat on the deep ball as often, but you sure as hell get killed underneath.  I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of pressure up front.....which kind of forces your coverage to "keep everything in front of them" instead of pressing and taking more risk.  Perhaps someone has a different view on it?

Maybe... All I know is we have been making it extremely easy for every QB to move the ball on us. Of course, getting more pressure would be ideal with any secondary coverage but we haven't been able to do that consistently all year. Playing some man coverage can't really cause much worse at this point.

[sonofstat]

(11-01-2016, 06:06 PM)CoreyK Wrote: Here are the Defenses Key problems with personnel:

1. Dansby
2. Peko
3. Maualuga
4. Dansby
5. A. Jones
6. G. Iloka
7. S. Williams
8. M. Johnson

Only "8" problem areas on defense.  Not sure they have enough "replacements" to fix 8 issues. 

Only possible solutions I see is: 

Move Shawn Williams to Nickel LB and move Derron Smith into starting Free Safety spot.  Move George Iloka to Strong Safety where he is actually a good player.  Get Dansby off the field in Nickel situations.  In Nickel situations keep plugging in Will Clarke at DT.  Get Peko off the field in ALL situations. Get Rey M. off the field in all scenarios and replace with either N. Vigil or V. Rey.  They do not have any adequate replacement for Adam Jones so we just have to hope he starts to play better?  I suppose we could bench him and go with Shaw and Dennard but they are not an improvement. 

** Maybe sign Taylor Mays to help at Nickel LB***

I'm tempted to put MJ higher up your list of personnel challenges.   

The problem with the likes of Iloka/Williams is when they clearly don't do their jobs it can result in a very obvious yardage gain. As a run specialist RDE its harder to identify if he's really doing a good job...whilst the stats say he's just about on for his worst year as a full time starter i just go with what i see and he is not making ANY plays this year.  In previous years you would at least see him stand up a runner in the backfield and he seemed to get his hands up and bat some passes down. 

He really seems a passenger this year and if Dunlap /Atkins are not having a good day he is not picking up their slack. The fact we have at least a viable option to look at in Will Clarke means I'd be tempted to give him more snaps

[BengalChris]

(11-01-2016, 04:16 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Shaw should stay in the nickel CB position. No need to put him elsewhere, he excels there.

Sims and Clarke are good rotational payers, but don't believe they'd be good starters.

We need better play calling. Heck. 7 times against the Redskins Guenther put MJ or Dunlap drop into coverage. Some happened on 3rd down.

The hard thing is, are there really any better players on the bench? Sure. We talk about Vigil because of how he looked in preseason, but I'm pretty sure Erickson has shown us to take the preseason with a grain of salt.

There needs to be changes, but they also need to draft better. We may see a huge overhaul on the defense in 2017. And we need one. Including DC.

In 2014, we had the 22nd best defense. Years before? 3rd. 6th. And 7th.
Points per game? 5th. 8th. And 9th.
In 2014 with him as DC, 12th in points scored. But also had the least sacks in the league. Something the Bengals were once known for.

This year? Rank 24th in defense. Tied for 19th in scoring defense. Given up 16 passing TDs. Ranked 28th in the league, tied with Carolina.

Guenther did well in 2015. I will give him that. But our defense has not been consistent. We used to be a defense teams feared, even on 3rd down. Now? 40.6% 3rd down percentage against us.

I think our position coach changes may be the least talked about thing. We've taken steps back on that, especially on defense. New DB coach. New LB coach. New DL coach. And almost everyone on defense has taken a step back.

^^ This, plus no Nelson, Gilberry or Hall.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-01-2016, 06:27 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Going back to my original post: Can someone explain to me why Guenther coaches players to play 10-15 yards off receivers? Or why Bresnahan did it for that matter? What is the benefit of playing extremely soft coverage most of the time? Someone please enlighten me... Because it has looked as stupid as it sounds lately.

The easy answer is because we no longer have Reggie Nelson back there, protecting over the top.  The more detailed answer has to do with the double loss of Nelson and Coach Vance Joseph, who knew how to get the secondary on the same page.

[THE Bigzoman]

So how many games is vigil allowed to be sub par in?, or any young in for that matter?