State of the Bengals: Running Back

[*SHRacerX*]

I thought this might be a fun way to address off-season needs and the draft by analyzing the position groups one-by-one. I don't want to do one every day, so I will give a few days for this subject (RB) and once it appears to be a dead thread I will start a new position group.

Here goes the first one: I choose RB because it should be fresh in everyone's mind what we just saw out of Rex.

I look at the Bengals current stock of running backs (Hill, Gio, Rex, Peerman...Tra Carson, last game PS acquistion) and I immediately question why in the hell the Bengals running game is so poor. Before everyone begins shouting obscenities at Ogbuehi and Bodine, I think it is much more than just that.

Sure, the lack of good blocking on the offensive line was a contributing factor, but it is only a piece of the puzzle. I look at the RBs and I see two players with a similar skill set, a special teamer, and Hill. Hill stands out because he is a "bigger back" and should be able to hit the hold hard and get the tough yards on third and two, but he simply isn't that player. He has seemingly lost his burst and before anyone quotes the YPC for Hill and Gio being similar, if you take away the performances against Cleveland where I think any of the RBs could have had a field day, Hill likely averaged under 3 YPC. That is just awful.

Hill is also not a very good route runner, unlike Gio and Rex. Hill also struggles in picking up the blitz.

This isn't meant to be a 'Hill-bashing" post, but here is what I am trying to illustrate and here is my solution: When Hill is on the field, it is usually going to be as a rushing threat. Much more than as a receiver. The defense knows that. With Gio and Rex, they can be either a rush threat or a significant downfield receiving threat. That predictability can be solved by replacing Hill with another back similar to Gio and Rex. Rotate all three of them to keep them fresh, and the playbook should not be limited when those three would be in the game. Peerman is obviously just special teams (and a damn good one at that) but he doesn't enter game plan discussions as a RB. One other way to help with the offensive line issues with players already on the roster is more utilization of two TE sets, where one TE can stay in to help block, but must be accounted for as a potential receiving target. A healthy Uzomah, Croft, and Eifert could all be very effective used in this role.

If the big 3 of DEs are gone by selection #9. Should the Bengals draft Delvin Cook?

Remember, the running game is probably the Bengals single greatest weakness. This would solve it essentially overnight.

Furthermore, I like the idea of getting Rex and even Gio some snaps at WR when Cook would be on the field. It just creates more mismatches against LBs.

Thoughts?

[SunsetBengal]

I tend to agree with your overall analysis of the situation. I also like your mention of Dalvin Cook. He is a true, all purpose back. He is fast, agile, has good hands, as well as enough ass to handle running between the Tackles.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 11:48 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I tend to agree with your overall analysis of the situation.  I also like your mention of Dalvin Cook.  He is a true, all purpose back.  He is fast, agile, has good hands, as well as enough ass to handle running between the Tackles.

The key to making a selection like Cook work in this offense is to avoid the temptation of riding Cook as a bell-cow.  Rotate the three of them, and keep them all healthy (still no guarantee, but you get my point).  We have seen Hill for some time now and we know what he is.  Cook is a difference maker all over the field.  Made a tough Michigan defense look tired and slow.  

[Shake n Blake]

Your post reads like a brochure trying to sell Cook.

Call me stubborn, but I'm not convinced Hill is as much a part of the problem as you let on. For one, his YPC was dragged down severely by playing these last few games hurt before they finally shut him down. Earlier in the season - even outside of the Cleveland games - his YPC was nearly identical to Gio's, and either way you want to slice it...Gio's YPC was bad.

Once again, we finished 20th or worse in YPC, which has happened every year from 2006-present outside of Hill's rookie season. So this isn't just a one year thing. It's a decade long problem. I couldn't care less about Hill anymore. Go ahead and replace him, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a Fournette or a Cook get labeled a bust in this system with this blocking.

[Whacked]

Curiously - was REX's YPC avg?

[Atomic Orange]

(01-02-2017, 02:29 PM)Whacked Wrote: Curiously - was REX's YPC avg?

Over 5 i believe.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-02-2017, 02:29 PM)Whacked Wrote: Curiously - was REX's YPC avg?

His was 4.6...easily better than Hill's or Gio's, but keep in mind that (a) he was totally fresh late in the season and (b) small sample size. He earned a shot at a bigger role, but if you give Burkhead 200 carries, I'd be willing to bet that his YPC would come tumbling down. Just as everyone else's has over the last decade. You might see some small spurts of quality running/blocking (BJGE in '12, Hill in '14, Rex in '16), but they've all wound up being anomalies.

Does anyone here really believe Rex is better than Gio?

[J24]

The problem is with the system not Hill. He is a north south runner that needs a full back. It's like if we had Jim Brown and Barry Sanders on the same team and asked both of them to run the same style of offense then wonder why one of them is struggling.

[bengalsturntup926]

I think we need another play maker period on offense, whether that's rb or wr, cook is the best, he's going to be like jamalle Charles. I also love Corey Davis, If we don't go offense we better address it later

[Joelist]

I tend to think the issue with running the ball goes to poor offensive line technique. When you watch them in games, our linemen play too high, actually give ground and use pulling too much to the point where defenses know it is coming and adjust for it.

Then look at teams that run it well - they get their pads low and drive right into the defense aggressively. That makes the holes the backs can burst into. If you want to know why Ezekiel Elliot had the rookie year he did look no further than the Dallas OL play - they gave him a clean backfield and nice holes to hit.

So if it is technique then it is the line coaching that comes into question...

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Your post reads like a brochure trying to sell Cook.

Call me stubborn, but I'm not convinced Hill is as much a part of the problem as you let on. For one, his YPC was dragged down severely by playing these last few games hurt before they finally shut him down. Earlier in the season - even outside of the Cleveland games - his YPC was nearly identical to Gio's, and either way you want to slice it...Gio's YPC was bad.

Once again, we finished 20th or worse in YPC, which has happened every year from 2006-present outside of Hill's rookie season. So this isn't just a one year thing. It's a decade long problem. I couldn't care less about Hill anymore. Go ahead and replace him, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a Fournette or a Cook get labeled a bust in this system with this blocking.

I would argue that Gio's YPC suffered from the same predictability problem of Hill's.  Gio would be given sweeps, etc, where he would be expected to try and get outside, which often exposed the weakness of the RT.  I look at what Rex did down the stretch and although I really like Rex, I don't see him as a first ballot HOF player....I think he is a very good talent and can be successful in a number of ways but he really looked so much better than Hill.  It seems as though Hill has lost his burst that he had as a rookie.  

The blocking has been an issue, but I think that with the right complement of weapons on the field, the running game can improve tremendously with the same line that we finished the year with.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 02:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: His was 4.6...easily better than Hill's or Gio's, but keep in mind that (a) he was totally fresh late in the season and (b) small sample size. He earned a shot at a bigger role, but if you give Burkhead 200 carries, I'd be willing to bet that his YPC would come tumbling down. Just as everyone else's has over the last decade. You might see some small spurts of quality running/blocking (BJGE in '12, Hill in '14, Rex in '16), but they've all wound up being anomalies.

Does anyone here really believe Rex is better than Gio?

Here is what their college careers look like:

Rex:  635 rushes for 3329 yards, 5.2 YPC average, and 30 TDs.  He caught 60 balls for 507 yards, 8.5 YPC and 5 TDs

Gio:  425 rushes for 2481 yards, 5.9 YPC average, and 25 TDs.  He caught 92 balls for 852 yards, 9.3 YPC, and 6 TDs

Is it that hard to believe that the bigger-bodied, but faster in the short shuttle than Gio could be as good or better?  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-02-2017, 02:54 PM)J24 Wrote: The problem is with the system not Hill. He is a north south runner that needs a full back. It's like if we had Jim Brown and Barry Sanders on the same team and asked both of them to run the same style of offense then wonder why one of them is struggling.

Another way to say this is that Hill doesn't fit our system.  

[milksheikh]

I don't think we should have Hill as the primary back but a speed back that can juke and make plays by himself.


Someone that has hands and can make small/intermediate catches would be also nice, I liked what I saw out of Dalvin Cook but don't want to spend a 1st rounder on a RB.

[magikod]

Hill's problem is he dances to much in the backfield. With our O-line this year you have to hit the hole (or make 1 yourself) and get a few yards.

Half the blame goes to O line other half to Hill.

[Speedy Thomas]

(01-02-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Once again, we finished 20th or worse in YPC, which has happened every year from 2006-present outside of Hill's rookie season. So this isn't just a one year thing. It's a decade long problem. I couldn't care less about Hill anymore. Go ahead and replace him, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a Fournette or a Cook get labeled a bust in this system with this blocking.

Wow, I had no idea that we have been so historically mediocre running the ball.  Apparently this organization feels that we can win with passing, so all we need to do is run just well enough so we can pass.   

[bengalhoel]

(01-02-2017, 02:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: His was 4.6...easily better than Hill's or Gio's, but keep in mind that (a) he was totally fresh late in the season and (b) small sample size. He earned a shot at a bigger role, but if you give Burkhead 200 carries, I'd be willing to bet that his YPC would come tumbling down. Just as everyone else's has over the last decade. You might see some small spurts of quality running/blocking (BJGE in '12, Hill in '14, Rex in '16), but they've all wound up being anomalies.

Does anyone here really believe Rex is better than Gio?

I get what you are saying but Hill averaged less than 3 yards a carry the first two games of the year. He should have been really fresh and motivated, especially after fumbling the playoff game away. He is an NFL caliber player, just not the one everyone thought he was.

[fortyyearfan]

(01-02-2017, 11:39 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I thought this might be a fun way to address off-season needs and the draft by analyzing the position groups one-by-one.  I don't want to do one every day, so I will give a few days for this subject (RB) and once it appears to be a dead thread I will start a new position group.

Here goes the first one:  I choose RB because it should be fresh in everyone's mind what we just saw out of Rex.  

I look at the Bengals current stock of running backs (Hill, Gio, Rex, Peerman...Tra Carson, last game PS acquistion) and I immediately question why in the hell the Bengals running game is so poor.  Before everyone begins shouting obscenities at Ogbuehi and Bodine, I think it is much more than just that.  

Sure, the lack of good blocking on the offensive line was a contributing factor, but it is only a piece of the puzzle.  I look at the RBs and I see two players with a similar skill set, a special teamer, and Hill.  Hill stands out because he is a "bigger back" and should be able to hit the hold hard and get the tough yards on third and two, but he simply isn't that player.  He has seemingly lost his burst and before anyone quotes the YPC for Hill and Gio being similar, if you take away the performances against Cleveland where I think any of the RBs could have had a field day, Hill likely averaged under 3 YPC.  That is just awful.

Hill is also not a very good route runner, unlike Gio and Rex.  Hill also struggles in picking up the blitz.

This isn't meant to be a 'Hill-bashing" post, but here is what I am trying to illustrate and here is my solution:  When Hill is on the field, it is usually going to be as a rushing threat.  Much more than as a receiver.  The defense knows that.  With Gio and Rex, they can be either a rush threat or a significant downfield receiving threat.  That predictability can be solved by replacing Hill with another back similar to Gio and Rex.  Rotate all three of them to keep them fresh, and the playbook should not be limited when those three would be in the game.  Peerman is obviously just special teams (and a damn good one at that) but he doesn't enter game plan discussions as a RB.  One other way to help with the offensive line issues with players already on the roster is more utilization of two TE sets, where one TE can stay in to help block, but must be accounted for as a potential receiving target.  A healthy Uzomah, Croft, and Eifert could all be very effective used in this role.  

If the big 3 of DEs are gone by selection #9.  Should the Bengals draft Delvin Cook?  

Remember, the running game is probably the Bengals single greatest weakness.  This would solve it essentially overnight.  

Furthermore, I like the idea of getting Rex and even Gio some snaps at WR when Cook would be on the field.  It just creates more mismatches against LBs.  

Thoughts?

To me one of the greatest slams against our coaches is they did not play TRA CARSON, I think that is his name,anyways this guy is a beast of a runner,just the way Rex is I watched him during pre-season and know one defender could stop him,he is big like 235,and very strong,i just do not know why marvin did not use this guy.I am telling you with him,rex and gio in there at different times giving each other rest,we could wear down any D.If they do not use him in 2017 someone is going to get him and he will be a starter.We do not need to address RB in this draft,this guy is a starter day one.I would make REX,and GIO starter,with TRA AND JERMEY HILL AS BACKUPS.We would be set and would kill defenses with that kind of attack along with our receivers.I hope they see this.I am telling you this guy is the real deal.

[Nati#1]

I think Hill was big problem to our run game. Burkhead is way better.

[J24]

(01-02-2017, 05:44 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Another way to say this is that Hill doesn't fit our system.  

Well duh but that's not a Hill problem that's a coaching problem. The Patriots play a similar system to us and  they make Blount work.  Make the system  fit the player not the player fit the system.