Try to sell me on O.J. Howard.

[Okeana]

(04-03-2017, 12:24 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I see some concern as to how OJH could be used here..saying he'd be the third or fourth target on the field. While that is true..that wouldn't last long. He'd be target 2b very early behind this Oline giving Dalton 2 sec to throw. Underneath TE routes all day long. TE screens, TE out in the flats. This dude could open up our playbook more than many people think. With the questions at tackle this year, I think it'd be smart to run more 2TE sets. It beefs up the running game, and it helps chip rushers coming to take Ced's lunch.

I'm not sold at all with our depth behind Eifert. Yeah people will say Uzo did a fine job...but did he really? I think he had a couple splash plays then disappeared for the rest of the year. And Kroft?..lol...Kroft warmed the bench all year after playing sparingly his rookie year.  

Even if Barnett is there, if OJH is still on the board I'm running up to the podium. A situational pass rusher with one or two moves in a draft deep at the position vs a complete TE that could help our Offense in multiple ways many experts are viewing as a once-in-a-decade talent?! Yep..OJ-All-Day!  

I personally like either pick because it adds a good player, but I wouldn't be mad with OJ Howard in the first and Derek Rivers in the 2nd.  We need more 2nd round picks bad this year.  

[Au165]

(04-03-2017, 01:34 PM)Okeana Wrote: you know what shuts down your entire argument ? the fact any pick at 9 you can say the exact same thing.  

To an extent yes, but at the same time no. No position has been drafted less in the first round in the last 7 years than TE. NFL teams apparently realize that you can get really good ones in the mid rounds. Even HB, which has generally be devalued, still is perceived as having more value than TE. If you look through the top 5 guys at any position in the NFL right now most will be first rounders, that can't be said about TE.

As to Ochocincos, I think that's the question really and it becomes more preference. I think WR as much as I hate it has more value at 9 than TE for the simple reason that your going to put more out there in various formations meaning there are more chances for them to be an impact year 1. Eiffert is always going to be on the field, so in single TE sets he is on the field and Howard is not. There really aren't single WR formations in today's NFL so we always have a chance to run the rookie out across from Green.

I really hate the idea of WR or TE at 9, but I'd lean WR over TE. I am going pass rusher all the way, and maybe Safety if one of the two top guys fall. If all those guys are gone then that should mean the top QB is on the board still which would mean a trade back is definitely in play.

[*psychdoctor*]

(04-03-2017, 01:36 PM)Okeana Wrote: You don't have to have one or the other when it comes to Howard and Eifert.  Its two amazing weapons you can have on the field at the same time.  

And Green.  And maybe a new RB.  That combo would help out Dalton and offense.  Pretty awesome really.  I am liking Howard more and more. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-03-2017, 02:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: To an extent yes, but at the same time no. No position has been drafted less in the first round in the last 7 years than TE. NFL teams apparently realize that you can get really good ones in the mid rounds. Even HB, which has generally be devalued, still is perceived as having more value than TE. If you look through the top 5 guys at any position in the NFL right now most will be first rounders, that can't be said about TE.

As to Ochocincos, I think that's the question really and it becomes more preference. I think WR as much as I hate it has more value at 9 than TE for the simple reason that your going to put more out there in various formations meaning there are more chances for them to be an impact year 1. Eiffert is always going to be on the field, so in single TE sets he is on the field and Howard is not. There really aren't single WR formations in today's NFL so we always have a chance to run the rookie out across from Green.

I really hate the idea of WR or TE at 9, but I'd lean WR over TE. I am going pass rusher all the way, and maybe Safety if one of the two top guys fall. If all those guys are gone then that should mean the top QB is on the board still which would mean a trade back is definitely in play.

OJ Howard would have less depth to climb through than a first-round WR would. WR would be under Green, LaFell, and Boyd. For TE, it's just Eifert, and he's injured more often than the top 3 WRs. I think LaFell was retained for 2 years to groom a mid-round WR for 2 years.

So it really comes down to drafting a replacement for LaFell vs a replacement for Eifert. Who will see the field quicker and more often such that they have a bigger impact? I think a TE would.

[Au165]

(04-03-2017, 03:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: OJ Howard would have less depth to climb through than a first-round WR would. WR would be under Green, LaFell, and Boyd. For TE, it's just Eifert, and he's injured more often than the top 3 WRs. I think LaFell was retained for 2 years to groom a mid-round WR for 2 years.

So it really comes down to drafting a replacement for LaFell vs a replacement for Eifert. Who will see the field quicker and more often such that they have a bigger impact? I think a TE would.

I think a rookie WR would start behind Lafell, or Boyd depending on who and could work their way up. I think a Corey Davis or Mike Williams woudl be behind Lafell with a Ross behind Boyd to start the year. I think the team plans to resign Eiffert honestly, they will leverage his injuries into a more "show me" deal I think, but I think they want him. If they draft Howard it could show they aren't sold he will stay healthy or be affordable.

I'd just like to once again reiterate.....I don't like WR or TE at 9 haha.

[McC]

(04-03-2017, 10:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: My issue with TE at 9 is we can get other TE's later that can be very good. Instead of gettng Vernon Davis you get Jordan Reed, is that so bad? This is one of the best TE classes we may have ever seen which makes TE at 9 the only pick I hate worse than WR at 9. Jordan Leggett can be a very very good TE in this league and could be around in the 3rd, Bucky Hodges who we worked out is also another one in that range who could be very good.

Then who the hell are you picking at 9?

[Au165]

(04-03-2017, 04:15 PM)McC Wrote: Then who the hell are you picking at 9?

I am going all in for a pass rusher at 9, I have looked at a couple scenarios and the only scenario where we don't get one of the top guys is if no QB goes in the top 8. In that case I think 9 could be a trade target for guys looking to get in front of Cleveland at 12. If there is a run on pass rushers I could see one of the safeties dropping and I'd value them over a TE/WR.

[Mike M (the other one)]

If you're goal is to replace Eifert for when he goes down or doesn't sign next year, then you'd be better off picking
Adam Shaheen Ashland,
Eric Saubert Drake
Mike Roberts Toledo
Bucky Hodges Virginia Tech

If you want a blocker, then
George Kittle Iowa.


Combo:
Jonnu Smith Florida International
Gerald Everett South Alabama

And some others I haven't even named yet. The experts don't seem to be kidding about how deep the talent at TE is in this year's draft. No need to spend a 1st on a TE this year.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-03-2017, 04:39 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If you're goal is to replace Eifert for when he goes down or doesn't sign next year, then you'd be better off picking
Adam Shaheen Ashland,
Eric Saubert Drake
Mike Roberts Toledo
Bucky Hodges Virginia Tech

If you want a blocker, then
George Kittle Iowa.


Combo:
Jonnu Smith Florida International
Gerald Everett South Alabama

And some others I haven't even named yet. The experts don't seem to be kidding about how deep the talent at TE is in this year's draft. No need to spend a 1st on a TE this year.

Shaheen, Saubert, Roberts, Hodges haven't shown the blocking Howard has, nor do they have QUITE as elite athleticism.
Kittle is really just a backup blocking TE. Nowhere near the athleticism or pass catching ability as most of the TEs in this class.

Gerald Everett, while talented, played in an inferior conference and is too small for what the Bengals prefer in TEs. I've seen comparisons to Delanie Walker and Quincy Enunwa.
If the Bengals were to look outside of their mold for TE and can land him in the 3rd, it could be a good selection. But I still think they want their TEs bigger than 6'3" and 239 lbs.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-03-2017, 04:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Shaheen, Saubert, Roberts, Hodges haven't shown the blocking Howard has, nor do they have QUITE as elite athleticism.
Kittle is really just a backup blocking TE. Nowhere near the athleticism or pass catching ability as most of the TEs in this class.

Gerald Everett, while talented, played in an inferior conference and is too small for what the Bengals prefer in TEs. I've seen comparisons to Delanie Walker and Quincy Enunwa.
If the Bengals were to look outside of their mold for TE and can land him in the 3rd, it could be a good selection. But I still think they want their TEs bigger than 6'3" and 239 lbs.

Kittle reminds me of Heath Miller. Great Blocker, can catch when called up on, just needs to develop more consistency in that area and I wouldn't call him a back up TE, if you want that type of TE, then he's a future number 1 for your squad. He's never going to the big name guy, but he should be plug 'n' play for 10 years.

Funny though, If we are replacing Eifert, do we need that player to be NFL ready right now (Eifert wasn't known for his blocking ability when he was drafted either)? or do we have any time at all to develop one? 

Oh wait, if we have to replace Eifert next year, then we would have to pick one in the first round right next year as well. So wouldn't it be better to get a guy that needs a little time and polish to be ready to replace him next year? We all know the Bengals aren't going to do 2 TE sets, so stop wasting a 1st Round draft pick by having him on the bench.

Small school talent? Talent comes from everywhere nowadays. You take it where you find it even if it comes from Assumption College.

Strangely enough, as of April 2015, Cincinnati was the only team that didn't have a D2 player on it's team.
as of this time, we have:
Jake Kumerow Wisconsin-Whitewater
Tony McRae NC A&T

Take it for what it's worth, but we need to change somewhere.

[BengalsRocker]

(04-03-2017, 06:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Kittle reminds me of Heath Miller. Great Blocker, can catch when called up on, just needs to develop more consistency in that area and I wouldn't call him a back up TE, if you want that type of TE, then he's a future number 1 for your squad. He's never going to the big name guy, but he should be plug 'n' play for 10 years.

Funny though, If we are replacing Eifert, do we need that player to be NFL ready right now (Eifert wasn't known for his blocking ability when he was drafted either)? or do we have any time at all to develop one? 

Oh wait, if we have to replace Eifert next year, then we would have to pick one in the first round right next year as well. So wouldn't it be better to get a guy that needs a little time and polish to be ready to replace him next year? We all know the Bengals aren't going to do 2 TE sets, so stop wasting a 1st Round draft pick by having him on the bench.

Small school talent? Talent comes from everywhere nowadays. You take it where you find it even if it comes from Assumption College.

Strangely enough, as of April 2015, Cincinnati was the only team that didn't have a D2 player on it's team.
as of this time, we have:
Jake Kumerow Wisconsin-Whitewater
Tony McRae NC A&T

Take it for what it's worth, but we need to change somewhere.

Right.
If Hue or even Gruden for that matter couldn't utilize double TE sets...  what makes people believe that Zamp will?

A lot of daydreamers around these parts!

[Hammerstripes]

(04-02-2017, 07:43 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So college stats dont matter at all?? To me they do. And butt is infinitely better blocker than howard. Its not even up for debate. I liken him to witten because he will be a chain mover as well as an excellent pass blocker. He wont be a gronk or reed catch and run 60 yard td. Butt did everything michigian asked him to do, was albe to block bosa 1 on 1, and played well against great defenses. Also an interesting stat for butt. 2015-2016 on post and corner routes: 24 targets, 17 catches, 394 yards, 4 touchdowns and 1 interception; Michigan QBs had a 135.4 QB Rating when targeting Butt on those two routes. This is what i mean. He will move the chains and be an elite te blocker.
Howard is so inferior to butt its not even funny as far as blocking is concerned. They are 2 completely different prospects. When u are drafting howard, ur drafting the gronk/olsen/reed splash plays for tds. When u draft butt, ur drafting a jason witten. A guy who will get you the 10-12 yard catches but isnt breaking anything huge while being an elite te pass blocker.

This is by far the last reason that I would draft a tight end.  The last thing I want to see is my TE blocking on passing plays.

[Jpoore]

(04-03-2017, 11:32 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: This is by far the last reason that I would draft a tight end.  The last thing I want to see is my TE blocking on passing plays.

If ur running 2 te sets.

[TGISunday]

If Howard is BPA, then I don't hesitate to make that choice. It's not in spite of Eifert, but he isn't under contract next year and is often injured.

Also, that money you'd spend on Eifert next year can go toward Minter, Burfict, Dennard, extending our tackles, or others if things go well with those spots. But that's a supposition for another thread...

[*ochocincos*]

(04-03-2017, 06:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Kittle reminds me of Heath Miller. Great Blocker, can catch when called up on, just needs to develop more consistency in that area and I wouldn't call him a back up TE, if you want that type of TE, then he's a future number 1 for your squad. He's never going to the big name guy, but he should be plug 'n' play for 10 years.

Funny though, If we are replacing Eifert, do we need that player to be NFL ready right now (Eifert wasn't known for his blocking ability when he was drafted either)? or do we have any time at all to develop one? 

Oh wait, if we have to replace Eifert next year, then we would have to pick one in the first round right next year as well. So wouldn't it be better to get a guy that needs a little time and polish to be ready to replace him next year? We all know the Bengals aren't going to do 2 TE sets, so stop wasting a 1st Round draft pick by having him on the bench.

Small school talent? Talent comes from everywhere nowadays. You take it where you find it even if it comes from Assumption College.

Strangely enough, as of April 2015, Cincinnati was the only team that didn't have a D2 player on it's team.
as of this time, we have:
Jake Kumerow Wisconsin-Whitewater
Tony McRae NC A&T

Take it for what it's worth, but we need to change somewhere.

The goal for the Bengals should be to not only potentially replace as early as a year from now (when Eifert hits FA) but also improve the team immediately.
Plus, the Bengals typically draft a replacement a year or two early to groom. They don't wait until there's a hole.

Do you think a first-round WR would see the field on offense more than a first-round TE? I don't see it because TE would only have to wait for Eifert to go down or the Bengals try using two-TE sets more often. If WR, that player must wait behind AJ Green, Brandon LaFell, and Tyler Boyd, who are all less injury-prone than Eifert and approaching FA at least a year later than Eifert. Plus, the reason I am liking TE more and more is because the Bengals will need to keep an extra blocker in to help the OL. A WR doesn't help as much in that department as a complete TE would.

You mention Kumerow and McRae, both of which didn't make the 53-man last year. They landed on the PS. They really shouldn't even be considered. The Bengals prefer to get their players primarily from a Power 5 conference and then occasionally dip into the other FBS conferences for players.

If we're going to be technical, the Bengals have all of their starters set for the start of the season anyway, so any player drafted is going to be a depth player as a rookie.
Assuming no injuries to the starters, a DE is going to see just limited snaps as a situational pass rusher. A WR is going to be used in 4-WR sets. A TE is going to be used in 2-TE sets, which is more likely if they continue the trend from last year and forego the H-B in favor of another TE to help with blocking. No other position that's drafted would probably even see the field at all barring injury.

Why don't we just trade out of the first round and get multiple second and third rounders since it seems all we really need are players that need to be groomed?

[Hammerstripes]

(04-04-2017, 09:34 AM)Jpoore Wrote: If ur running 2 te sets.

I still don't want my TE blocking a DE in pass pro.

[Au165]

(04-04-2017, 12:15 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I still don't want my TE blocking a DE in pass pro.

We very very rarely ask our TE's to block in pass pro. We normally run them on routes, which is actually something I wish we would do less of and keep them in to help out our tackles this year specifically.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-04-2017, 12:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: We very very rarely ask our TE's to block in pass pro. We normally run them on routes, which is actually something I wish we would do less of and keep them in to help out our tackles this year specifically.

Then you end up with 2-3 guys in the pattern vs. 4-5 defenders.  Not exactly the best odds.

[Au165]

(04-04-2017, 12:50 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Then you end up with 2-3 guys in the pattern vs. 4-5 defenders.  Not exactly the best odds.

Normally you keep one or the other  in between TE or HB, we tend to put both in routes with HB normally on a check and release pattern. Now if we keep everyone in your talking max protect, but that is going to be more of a shot play off Play Action not normal route combinations. I am saying we keep a TE in more often and still run 3-4 guys in the pattern. Against a zone defense numbers don't matter because they occupy spaces not faces, so they are going to a general position (very simple explanation on a much more complicated topic) no matter what. On man plays often times if the guy is on the TE or HB and the player stays in to block it becomes a +1 blitz and they come after the QB so numbers don't change too much, occasionally game plans will dictate the +1 turns into a double team, but that is probably more specific to the weekly match up.

[blt4584]

(04-04-2017, 12:50 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Then you end up with 2-3 guys in the pattern vs. 4-5 defenders.  Not exactly the best odds.

This was LSU for a couple years. People always got real mad at the QB for not finding anyone to throw to when no one was open.