O line struggeling

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-07-2017, 02:44 PM)Wyche Wrote: That is true.....but I think we were a fluke play that resulted in losing our starting QB away from making at least a run at the AFCCG.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2017, 09:35 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Tag should have been Whitworth. No question. He's 35, will be 36 by end of the year, but he still plays at an elite level. Ogbuehi could have been groomed behind Whitworth as either the first player off the bench or competed for starting RG and swing over to LT in the event of an injury to Whit.

Tag for OL was $13.8 mil this year.  Kirk has a cap hit of $9.3 mil in '17 and Minter is $5 mil.  So, you're basically looking at tagging Whit or keeping Kirk and adding Minter.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-08-2017, 09:56 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tag for OL was $13.8 mil this year.  Kirk has a cap hit of $9.3 mil in '17 and Minter is $5 mil.  So, you're basically looking at tagging Whit or keeping Kirk and adding Minter.

Hobspin, is that you? 

The Bengals are sitting on $18.6m in cap space right now.

[Bengalbug]

(08-08-2017, 10:06 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Hobspin, is that you? 

The Bengals are sitting on $18.6m in cap space right now.

Rollover for burfict and eifert... DUH

[Luvnit2]

(08-08-2017, 10:06 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Hobspin, is that you? 

The Bengals are sitting on $18.6m in cap space right now.

Are they?

Burfict and Eifert long term deals are needed ASAP in my opinion

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2017, 09:56 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tag for OL was $13.8 mil this year.  Kirk has a cap hit of $9.3 mil in '17 and Minter is $5 mil.  So, you're basically looking at tagging Whit or keeping Kirk and adding Minter.

And Andre Smith is a $3 mill cap hit, which the Bengals could have instead been put toward Whit's tag.

The Bengals estimated cap space with DK and Minter is $18 mill. Remove Smith's $3 mill and you're looking at $21 mill.
The OL tag for $13.8 mill would still have left some for extensions ($7.2 mill).

[Au165]

(08-08-2017, 10:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: And Andre Smith is a $3 mill cap hit, which the Bengals could have instead been put toward Whit's tag.

The Bengals estimated cap space with DK and Minter is $18 mill. Remove Smith's $3 mill and you're looking at $21 mill.
The OL tag for $13.8 mill would still have left some for extensions ($7.2 mill).

7.2 million isn't nearly enough to give a signing bonus that is going to be needed for both of these guys (Burfict/Eiffert) . If you don't plan on resigning both it makes sense, but if you do that would be an issue.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2017, 10:49 AM)Au165 Wrote: 7.2 isn't nearly enough to give a signing bonus that is going to be needed for both of these guys (Burfict/Eiffert) .

Not for both, but do you really expect both to be given a signing bonus? I don't.
I expect one, and the other will be discussed in the offseason.

[Au165]

(08-08-2017, 10:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Not for both, but do you really expect both to be given a signing bonus? I don't.
I expect one, and the other will be discussed in the offseason.

Obviously they are both getting signing bonuses and raises this year if they are resigning early. That is normally the reason to resign heading into a season, you take more now rather than risk it to make even more later. That would be an issue if we only had 7.2 million to do it with. If both stay healthy and out of trouble their cost will only go up after the season. It makes sense to lock both up now to friendlier deals, and a good chunk of that cap will be used to do so.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-08-2017, 10:15 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Are they?

Burfict and Eifert long term deals are needed ASAP in my opinion

There is zero logical reason to give Eifert a long term deal right now.

He's not going to sign for pennies on the dollar, and the Bengals shouldn't give him big time money. Meanwhile the 2017 TE tag was $9.86m. Eifert needs to be healthy for the entire 2017 season before you even consider giving him a contract. It's really best if he just plays on franchise tags the next two years, if he's healthy enough to warrant them.

Back surgery, ankle surgery, shoulder surgery, elbow surgery, and a history of neck injuries (but thankfully no surgery on that yet)... and he's only 4 years into his NFL career. Giving him a long term deal right now is a terrible idea.

- - - - - - -

Meanwhile the Bengals have $18.6m in cap space right now, and spent $12.5m in 2017 on LaFell, Minter, and Andre Smith. I would much rather have Whitworth.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2017, 10:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: Obviously they are both getting signing bonuses and raises this year if they are resigning early. That is normally the reason to resign heading into a season, you take more now rather than risk it to make even more later. That would be an issue if we only had 7.2 million to do it with. If both stay healthy and out of trouble their cost will only go up after the season. It makes sense to lock both up now to friendlier deals, and a good chunk of that cap will be used to do so.

If that happens, yes. I just don't think it happens. I think only one gets extended before the season starts. I think the other waits until the offseason.

[Au165]

(08-08-2017, 10:59 AM)ochocincos Wrote: If that happens, yes. I just don't think it happens. I think only one gets extended before the season starts. I think the other waits until the offseason.

I hope not, thats a risky gamble. I think Eiffert is probably a Zach Ertz type deal that averages out with 8.5 Million a year with outs to the team three years in and some playing time bonuses for Eiffer to push him towards 9.5/10 if he plays most the games. Burfict is a going to want to be paid at least more than Kirksey in Cleveland got which is 9.5 a year. I think those are simply the market prices, those aren't the prices when teams get into a bidding war over them. Letting them hit the market could turn this into a Zeitler situation where one gets a record setting contract. Remember Jimmy Graham who has been often injured is up for a new contract this year too. If he resigns at a big number that could have a big impact on Eiffert.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2017, 11:07 AM)Au165 Wrote: I hope not, thats a risky gamble. I think Eiffert is probably a Zach Ertz type deal that averages out with 8.5 Million a year with outs to the team three years in and some playing time bonuses for Eiffer to push him towards 9.5/10 if he plays most the games. Burfict is a going to want to be paid at least more than Kirksey in Cleveland got which is 9.5 a year. I think those are simply the market prices, those aren't the prices when teams get into a bidding war over them. Letting them hit the market could turn this into a Zeitler situation where one gets a record setting contract. Remember Jimmy Graham who has been often injured is up for a new contract this year too. If he resigns at a big number that could have a big impact on Eiffert.

I think between Burfict and Eifert, Eifert has the most to gain for playing through a whole season. It'd be too advantageous for the Bengals to lock him up now.
That's why I think Burfict is the one that takes an early extension. I think Eifert pulls the Cousins approach and gambles on himself to try and make bank.

[Luvnit2]

(08-08-2017, 10:49 AM)Au165 Wrote: 7.2 million isn't nearly enough to give a signing bonus that is going to be needed for both of these guys (Burfict/Eiffert) . If you don't plan on resigning both it makes sense, but if you do that would be an issue.

I agree as Burfict alone will go over 10 million a year, maybe as much as 12 million to be resigned IMHO

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-08-2017, 09:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:

Touche'  :andy:

[Au165]

(08-08-2017, 11:19 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I think between Burfict and Eifert, Eifert has the most to gain for playing through a whole season. It'd be too advantageous for the Bengals to lock him up now.
That's why I think Burfict is the one that takes an early extension. I think Eifert pulls the Cousins approach and gambles on himself to try and make bank.

People keep talking about multiple tags but that is financially irresponsible for a TE. Assuming the tag jumps a similar 600ishk like it did from 16-17 we are looking at a tag number of 10.4 million to tag him next year (highest paid TE in league at this). The tag then jumps 120% of his previous tag taking him to 12.48 million for his second tag. It would be insane to pay him that much over two years when we could realistically get him for an average of 9-9.5 a year with some protections through playing time bonuses. There aren't people scrambling to go play on the tag. Most guys hate the tag because it offers little security, so they take less to have security.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2017, 11:28 AM)Au165 Wrote: People keep talking about multiple tags but that is financially irresponsible for a TE. Assuming the tag jumps a similar 600ishk like it did from 16-17 we are looking at a tag number of 10.4 million to tag him next year (highest paid TE in league at this). The tag then jumps 120% of his previous tag taking him to 12.48 million for his second tag. It would be insane to pay him that much over two years when we could realistically get him for an average of 9-9.5 a year with some protections through playing time bonuses. There aren't people scrambling to go play on the tag. Most guys hate the tag because it offers little security, so they take less to have security.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Eifert takes the multi-tag approach. I meant more I think he gambles on his own ability to stay healthy and perform well to really increase his value, then look to sign for the highest bidder next year.

[Au165]

(08-08-2017, 11:33 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Eifert takes the multi-tag approach. I meant more I think he gambles on his own ability to stay healthy and perform well to really increase his value, then look to sign for the highest bidder next year.

Yep, sorry it wasn't you it was someone else who mentioned multi tag approach. I thought it was you in an earlier approach. Maybe tough to tell, some guys bet on themselves some take the sure thing.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2017, 10:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: And Andre Smith is a $3 mill cap hit, which the Bengals could have instead been put toward Whit's tag.

The Bengals estimated cap space with DK and Minter is $18 mill. Remove Smith's $3 mill and you're looking at $21 mill.
The OL tag for $13.8 mill would still have left some for extensions ($7.2 mill).

However, they signed Andre to play RG, not LT.  You can't just assume they wouldn't bring him back on the cheap if they tagged Whit.

The $18 mil number is also based on our 51 biggest contracts, our actual number after final cuts will be in the $17 mil range with the 2 bubble guys added, which drops the extension/rollover/injury fund to the $6 mil range.

If the team had lost in the AFCCG or something, then going all in like that makes sense.  Coming off a 6 win season and a Top 10 pick, it makes more sense to focus on guys that have plenty of years left in the league.  You also have to figure out if you already have Whit's replacement or if you need to address it next year.

If you don't retain Marvin next year, rolling over cap funds will be a big help to the next coach in bringing in guys that fit his system.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-08-2017, 09:56 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tag for OL was $13.8 mil this year.  Kirk has a cap hit of $9.3 mil in '17 and Minter is $5 mil.  So, you're basically looking at tagging Whit or keeping Kirk and adding Minter.

IF we were at the cap. The Bengals have A LOT of cap space.

We could have signed 2-3 more 2nd or 3rd tier free agents. We could have signed Zeitler or Whitworth outright.