Dalton's weapons

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-26-2017, 08:45 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not like they're surrounding Andy with a bunch of bums.

Lafell  3rd round pick
Kroft   3rd round pick
Boyd    2nd round pick

3 second round RBs

Not to mention a 1st round TE that can't stay healthy.

When Andy has been successful, so much of that success has been conditional.  There is plenty of talent on the team.  It is time for the franchise QB to rise up, elevate those around him, and lead the team to some victories.  

Would any of those guys start on pittsburgh?  And, it the first round TE can't stay healthy and the two early round selections at OT haven't exactly been even average to this point, why is it Dalton that gets the crap?  Because he is the QB?  I'm ok with that, but if anyone thinks McCarron, who is less mobile, is a better option they are not watching the games.  

To your point about when "he has been successful" it was "conditional"....I don't understand.  He had AJ Green, Eifert, and a 5th round pick in Marvin Jones and a 3rd round pick in Sanu.   

He had a solid OC in Hue and decent talent and was an NFL MVP candidate.  Now he has an unproven coach, less talent on the line, and (I will be generous and call them decent) talent...and he is supposed to light the world on fire?  He played damn well against Green Bay on the road.  He doesn't get any credit for any of the good he does.  Just grief.  

I don't understand it and I don't think I ever will.  Here's to hoping he gets a real coach and some protection before next year, and maybe, just maybe, pulls a rabbit out of a hat this year.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-26-2017, 08:53 AM)Nately120 Wrote: If Dalton isn't man enough to win the Bengal's way then he can take his ball and go home like Carson.  And by go home I mean spend the next 7+ years playing for NFL franchises that actually hire GMs and scouts, have indoor practice facilities, hold their HC's accountable, don't fill their front offices with nepotistic losers and get closer to the Super Bowl than the Bengals have been since the Reagan administration.

Go ahead, Dalton.  Be a coward and go to an NFL team that actually operates like an NFL franchise.  I dares ya!  You'll be sorry when Marvin Lewis isn't there to carry your dead weight and raise the proverbial Titanic like he did here.

Wow...so Lewis carries Dalton's dead weight?  Amazing.  I guess Lewis forgot how to do that after Hue left.  

[*Nately120*]

(09-26-2017, 11:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Wow...so Lewis carries Dalton's dead weight?  Amazing.  I guess Lewis forgot how to do that after Hue left.  

Marvin carries so much dead weight.  They guy has only had like 3 good players here his entire career.  Oh, but he's also a GM so we can't fire him.  Why does everyone want Bruce Coslet back so badly?

[Shake n Blake]

(09-25-2017, 09:03 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'd say the Steelers and Falcons have better weapons...but AJ Green is an elite WR. Lafell is good. Jones and Sanu were good #2 and #3 guys. Our backs were generally good too.

Sure, we perceive that our RB's are talented, and that may be true, but does it matter when they're constantly a bottom-feeder in YPC? Dalton has been in the league for 6 years and I'd say his receiver situation (outside of Green) was good only twice. 2013 and 2015. When we had MLJ and Sanu...and both were healthy. In those seasons, Dalton set franchise records for yards and TDs ('13) and his MVP caliber season in '15.

Every other season we had guys like Simpson, Binns or LaFell, who is steady but limited. TE has mostly been Uzomah/Kroft the last couple years. Crap o-line with crap run game. I think people have seen AJ Green and just automatically assumed the "weapons" were all good. They look good by association.

(09-25-2017, 10:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While I agree with what you say, I still stand by my comment about a franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him.  

And again, I ask;  Have you seen that with our franchise QB?

He got a 700 season out of Jerome Simpson. He made Armon Binns look competent for 5 starts (people were surprised when we cut him). Gresh averaged 563 yards with Dalton and 362 yards with Palmer. Lafell just had the 2nd best season in his 7 year career and no other season was even close. He made Mo Sanu look like a passable #1 receiver when everyone else was injured in 2014. CJ Uzomah was on pace for around 600 yards when he was starting in Eifert's place last year. 

I don't know about right now, but Dalton has elevated plenty of guys in the past.

(09-26-2017, 10:18 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Many of Dalton's misfires have been when he's not actually been pressured. There have been times in those situations where he prematurely started scrambling because he doesn't trust the OL whatsoever.

52 sacks (and hella pressure) in 19 games has probably messed with his internal clock. That stuff happens and it's real. Yet another reason why you protect your QB. Sacks kill drives, pressures throw off timing and a consistently pressured QB gets rattled.

[THE PISTONS]

Armon Binns was the next Megatron. We all know that.

Or maybe Megatron was the next Armon Binns.

I get this confused all the time.

[*Synric*]

(09-26-2017, 01:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 52 sacks (and hella pressure) in 19 games has probably messed with his internal clock. That stuff happens and it's real. Yet another reason why you protect your QB. Sacks kill drives, pressures throw off timing and a consistently pressured QB gets rattled.

Romo said something during the game I thought was interesting.He was speaking about Rodgers but I believe it applies Dalton too.


Romo said that when the offensive tackles are playing bad a QBs first look will be at the tackles to see if they were beat off the snap which is a big no no. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 01:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 52 sacks (and hella pressure) in 19 games has probably messed with his internal clock. That stuff happens and it's real. Yet another reason why you protect your QB. Sacks kill drives, pressures throw off timing and a consistently pressured QB gets rattled.

I have no doubt it's messed with him. He's always been a QB that's very dependent on OL performance.

What I'm concerned about is how long will it take him to un-rattle if/when OL upgrade is attempted? I get the sense this rattling will stick since it's gradually happened over the past few years.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-26-2017, 02:04 PM)Synric Wrote: Romo said something during the game I thought was interesting.He was speaking about Rodgers but I believe it applies Dalton too.


Romo said that when the offensive tackles are playing bad a QBs first look will be at the tackles to see if they were beat off the snap which is a big no no. 

I liked Romo as a QB (felt the Cowboys didn't do enough to get him a ring) and I love him as an announcer.

But yeah, I can see why that'd be a no-no. That said, I can see why a QB would peek.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-26-2017, 02:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I have no doubt it's messed with him. He's always been a QB that's very dependent on OL performance.

What I'm concerned about is how long will it take him to un-rattle if/when OL upgrade is attempted? I get the sense this rattling will stick since it's gradually happened over the past few years.

I feel like most QB's are dependent on OL performance, but I get what you're saying.

Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer. It's hard telling at this point, but I know he sure could use a coach like Hue right now. Of course that's not happening. If Dalton is ruined, then we should get a new QB. That said, a new QB will be stuck with the same organizational problems and possibly much of the same coaching staff.

That's why I've been so frustrated lately. Well that and being out of the playoff hunt after 3 games.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I feel like most QB's are dependent on OL performance, but I get what you're saying.

Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer. It's hard telling at this point, but I know he sure could use a coach like Hue right now. Of course that's not happening. If Dalton is ruined, then we should get a new QB. That said, a new QB will be stuck with the same organizational problems and possibly much of the same coaching staff.

That's why I've been so frustrated lately. Well that and being out of the playoff hunt after 3 games.

This ocho....this is what I have been driving at in the other thread you and I have been talking in.

Spot on Shake.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I feel like most QB's are dependent on OL performance, but I get what you're saying.

Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer. It's hard telling at this point, but I know he sure could use a coach like Hue right now. Of course that's not happening. If Dalton is ruined, then we should get a new QB. That said, a new QB will be stuck with the same organizational problems and possibly much of the same coaching staff.

That's why I've been so frustrated lately. Well that and being out of the playoff hunt after 3 games.

At this point, I'd like to try with someone new than continue with the same. We know what Dalton can and cannot do.

Heck, it's been known on Dalton since approaching the draft.

Quote:Awareness in the Pocket

Yes, Dalton is very good with his play outside of the pocket on the run, but let’s not forget that NFL coaches are not putting that skill in front of passing inside the pocket, and he doesn’t seem as comfortable there at times when watching him on film. He gets happy feet when he is pressured from the outside and does not always step up into the pocket in these situations. Sometimes he will feel the heat and bail out of the pocket before his receivers are into their routes. In order to be a quality quarterback in the NFL, he must learn to shrug off the pressure, step up, and make the throw.

https://nflmocks.com/2011/04/01/scouting-report-tcu-quarterback-andy-dalton/

Quote:Weaknesses

On the shorter side and has a three-quarter delivery which will likely result in a lot of batted passes. Deeper throws will float at times when he does not set his feet. Played in a spread offense and will have to learn a pro style system. Does not always feel pressure in the pocket which nullifies his good mobility.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/andrew-dalton?id=2495143

Now in his seventh season, Andy Dalton has not improved (enough) in this area, and therefore I don't see him ever being good enough with this in the future.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 02:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: This ocho....this is what I have been driving at in the other thread you and I have been talking in.

Spot on Shake.

You're not going to change my mind about wanting a new QB.
I want a new QB and new OL.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer.

And what did it take for Palmer to rebound? A change in scenery. Probably needs to happen with Dalton too.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 02:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You're not going to change my mind about wanting a new QB.
I want a new QB and new OL.

.....wasn't trying to change your mind....just providing more insight to my position.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I feel like most QB's are dependent on OL performance, but I get what you're saying.

Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer. It's hard telling at this point, but I know he sure could use a coach like Hue right now. Of course that's not happening. If Dalton is ruined, then we should get a new QB. That said, a new QB will be stuck with the same organizational problems and possibly much of the same coaching staff.

That's why I've been so frustrated lately. Well that and being out of the playoff hunt after 3 games.

You hit the nail on the head.

As far as the organizational problems...really is ANY QB going to come in here and overcome them?

-You have coaches that are 0-7 in the playoffs retained.
-You have an offensive line coach that's survived through a decade of terrible offensive line play to be here 25 years now.
-You have a team that lets top free agents go and touts to the fanbase that it's for Comp Picks.
-You have a team that doesn't believe in free agency.
-You have an owner that restricts how much free Gatorade and Deodorant players can use.
-No indoor practice facility.
-An extremely small scouting staff.
-A culture of losing for 26+ years.
-A team that doesn't value Guards and Centers.

And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Basically to succeed here, lighting in a bottle will need captured. They'll have to acquire an amazing offense in defense within the span of 3-4 drafts because when the guys contracts are up a decent percentage will leave.

It's pretty improbably.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Reps Muskie, that definately must of took a long time.

AJ is an elite receiver though, top 5 and Eifert was one of the best in 2015 at his position and it showed when we went 8-0.

Dalton's weapons have been injured a lot though. Eifert and MLJ have and were always been injured. Green was injured last
year but this happens to about every team at some point it seems. Still believe when healthy we could have one of the most
talented rosters in terms of weapons. Still have very high hopes for Ross, i believe Mixon will be one of the best if we can get
this O-line somewhat better.

Green, Lafell, Boyd, Ross, Kroft, Eifert (has to be on the field but hey gotta put him in here), Mixon, Gio, Uzi etc.

Pretty good, i think Lazor will help Dalton as the season goes on. Marv just needs to take a step back.

[Joelist]

I think Shake has it correct. Our so-called weapons have only all been on the field consistently twice, and in both of those years we were effective on offense. And now with the disaster on the OL it doesn't even help to have them when we do because we can't form a proper pocket or give the QB time for the play to develop.

Really it won't matter who you stick behind Center until the OL is fixed. You might get a one or two game dead cat bounce but then the new QB will be shell shocked and the same scenario will repeat itself. Until the Bengals organization wakes up and understands that a quality OL has to always be offensive priority number one (which includes valuing Guards and Centers properly) it will not change.

[grampahol]

Kind of strange we should refer to various players as weapons as opposed to just pretty good players. Jail guards go to great lengths to deprive inmates of anything that can be used as a weapon including such innocuous items as a rubber band used to tie hair back. God forbid an inmate should have such dangerous weapons like a plastic wrist watch. 
Perhaps Andy should be given a plastic knife and fork in games instead of his usual sporks as we all know how well prepared the family that has a full compliment of plastic cutlery is during times of war and turbulence.. 
Moving on.. My confidence in the Bengals becoming world beaters has never been higher. We just need a space craft to transport the team to a small world incapable of defending itself.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-26-2017, 02:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think Shake has it correct. Our so-called weapons have only all been on the field consistently twice, and in both of those years we were effective on offense. And now with the disaster on the OL it doesn't even help to have them when we do because we can't form a proper pocket or give the QB time for the play to develop.

Really it won't matter who you stick behind Center until the OL is fixed. You might get a one or two game dead cat bounce but then the new QB will be shell shocked and the same scenario will repeat itself. Until the Bengals organization wakes up and understands that a quality OL has to always be offensive priority number one (which includes valuing Guards and Centers properly) it will not change.

It all starts up front no question.

Can have all the weapons in the world but if the QB has no time it doesn't matter unless that QB is a magician.

Which Andy is not.

Same goes for the RB's, if they have no holes cannot judge them either.

Barry Sanders is the only guy i have heard of that could still play great with a shitty O-line.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-26-2017, 02:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: And what did it take for Palmer to rebound? A change in scenery. Probably needs to happen with Dalton too.

I'm not arguing for keeping Dalton so much as I'm arguing that changing QBs isn't the magic elixir to cure all ills with this team.

By all means, swap Dalton out. Then be amazed when this team continues to have the same issues regardless of what QB you throw in the mix.