Daltons Pocket Presence

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 12:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....or a good o line to keep him settled.  Chicken/egg.  People are comparing him to HOFers. He's not a HOFer.  However, if the Ravens can win a SB with Trent ***** Dilfer, guys like Andy Dalton can too.  You don't just find a Drew Brees, Pig Pen, A Rodgers, Brady that often.  You either have one of those guys, or you build the trenches to win.  It's that simple.

It's going to be easier to replace Dalton than replace 3-4 poor OL.

[Socal Bengals fan]

i agree the oline is garbage #70 n Bodine dont belong in the league but Dalton has gotten worse this year. I think we should give AJ a chance n see what we get out of it. cant be worse at this point. i see Dak, Brees, Rodgers, n Rothlisberg extend plays n its frustrating to watch Dalton just run when he senses pressure.

[McC]

(09-26-2017, 12:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's going to be easier to replace Dalton than replace 3-4 poor OL.

Well, we are about due for another QB to ruin with no line and bad coaching.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 03:52 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Wow...just wow.  This shit is getting really old.  People need to seriously quit making excuses for this bum.  He’s not won a meaningful game his entire NFL career.  Yes this year he has arguably his worst o-line but let’s not pretend that anybody  outside of kool-aid drinking Bengal fans ever talked about Andy Dalton as a good quarterback prior to this season starting.  Andy’s entire career his long ball has sucked he’s a quick passer because he’s a one read passer and when he senses pressure he panics, always has.  He has zero ability to make plays outside of the pocket and when he tucks the ball to bail on the pocket he looks very uncoordinated and is about as agile as a 400lb nose tackle. Now that Zampese is gone we can go back to solely blaming the o-line.  Rewatch any playoff game and really watch any crucial play and you’ll see Andy overthrow his receiver.  If Green wasn’t such an exceptional jump ball artist, route running extraordinaire, I doubt Andy would be on the sideline Sunday mornings carrying a clipboard.

The bolded is where you are so horribly, horribly wrong.

(09-26-2017, 06:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Watch that video in the first tweet. It's ridiculous. And so are the attacks on anyone daring to criticize Dalton. 

No one is attacking Dalton critics. They are attacking the shit that is being made up about Dalton.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 12:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's going to be easier to replace Dalton than replace 3-4 poor OL.

What? Yes, techincally replacing one player is easier than replacing 3-4, but finding quality OLmen is not as hard as finding an elite QB that can handle a piss poor OL. There are currently like 2 QBs in the NFL that can: Rogers and Roethlisberger. So good luck finding the next one of those if that's the route you're going to take.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 12:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not to excuse Dalton's poor pocket presence this season, but when he does that, how many guys are actually open? One of the reasons Dalton doesn't throw as many INTs as he did his first few years is due to him not trying to force the ball into coverage. 

I'm not saying guys are NEVER getting open, but I think it's fair to ask if anybody's open when he does that. I know sometimes there are, but most times?

Aside from AJ Green, we don't do the scramble drill very well at all.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 12:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's going to be easier to replace Dalton than replace 3-4 poor OL.

Yeah, sure.  I'm not saying it isn't.  Here's the breakdown....we did the same exact thing when Palmer was here, then blamed him for throwing a shit ton of INTs because he was forcing things under duress.  Here we are, 7 years later, doing the SAME EXACT THING.

Back then, we KNEW Palmer was a statue, Mike Brown "doesn't value" the interior line.  Seven years later, we KNEW Dalton struggles under pressure, Mike Brown doesn't value the interior line, PLUS, we drafted TWO turds to play T, been playing a steaming pile of shit at C for four years, and rolled with unknowns at RG. Brilliant I tell ya!

I think you missed my point on my post.....there's only 5 or 6 elite guys out there that can overcome this, and then you have the rest of the QBs.  So, while you can replace Dalton, are you going to get any different results, unless you luck up and get one of these once in a generation talents?  I don't really believe you will.

The game is won and lost in the trenches.  They have shored up the defensive line, and made the oline WORSE.  

So, again, unless you have one of those HOFers, or a guy that can run the ball like a RB, you better build the line.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 12:41 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: i agree the oline is garbage #70 n Bodine dont belong in the league but Dalton has gotten worse this year.  I think we should give AJ a chance n see what we get out of it. cant be worse at this point.  i see Dak, Brees, Rodgers, n Rothlisberg extend plays n its frustrating to watch Dalton just run when he senses pressure.

He has....I think he's shell-schocked, gunshy, however you want to say it.  If he can't turn it around with Lazor by the bye week, I say roll with AJM.  That way, you have given Dalton a fair shot under an actual NFL OC instead of that turd Zampese, and if he fails, you give AJM a fair shot with an extra week to prepare.  Win/win.

Three of those 4 guys you mentioned are HOFers, Dak plays behind the best line in the NFL.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 12:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What? Yes, techincally replacing one player is easier than replacing 3-4, but finding quality OLmen is not as hard as finding an elite QB that can handle a piss poor OL. There are currently like 2 QBs in the NFL that can: Rogers and Roethlisberger. So good luck finding the next one of those if that's the route you're going to take.

If a QB's performance goes from 10-15 down to bottom barrel because of a decline in OL, that QB is not a franchise QB.

There are a few good players to target in FA and/or the draft for OL. I'm not saying OL shouldn't be upgraded.
But at this point, how anyone can think Dalton can get the Bengals a championship is beyond me. Dalton is a middle-tier QB when he's playing well, a lower-tier QB when not.

QBs that have come out since Dalton that I'd take over him right now:
Andrew Luck (shoulder issues aside)
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Russell Wilson
Derek Carr
Dak Prescott
Carson Wentz

Now only three of those are not first rounders, but the point is those players can be found with proper scouting.

With what looks to be a good QB class in 2018 and Dalton's contract only having $2.4 mill of dead cap after this year, it could be a very good time to move on from him.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 01:18 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah, sure.  I'm not saying it isn't.  Here's the breakdown....we did the same exact thing when Palmer was here, then blamed him for throwing a shit ton of INTs because he was forcing things under duress.  Here we are, 7 years later, doing the SAME EXACT THING.

Back then, we KNEW Palmer was a statue, Mike Brown "doesn't value" the interior line.  Seven years later, we KNEW Dalton struggles under pressure, Mike Brown doesn't value the interior line, PLUS, we drafted TWO turds to play T, been playing a steaming pile of shit at C for four years, and rolled with unknowns at RG. Brilliant I tell ya!

I think you missed my point on my post.....there's only 5 or 6 elite guys out there that can overcome this, and then you have the rest of the QBs.  So, while you can replace Dalton, are you going to get any different results, unless you luck up and get one of these once in a generation talents?  I don't really believe you will.

The game is won and lost in the trenches.  They have shored up the defensive line, and made the oline WORSE.  

So, again, unless you have one of those HOFers, or a guy that can run the ball like a RB, you better build the line.  

I didn't miss your point. I understand the OL needs upgraded and I agree with that point. But I also think QB can be upgraded too and the offseason is a great time to consider doing just that.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 01:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't miss your point. I understand the OL needs upgraded and I agree with that point. But I also think QB can be upgraded too and the offseason is a great time to consider doing just that.

Sure, I'm all for it.  My point is, why in the **** did they let it get to this point in the first place?  What's to stop them from Bungalizing another QB?  Wash, rinse, repeat.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 01:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't miss your point. I understand the OL needs upgraded and I agree with that point. But I also think QB can be upgraded too and the offseason is a great time to consider doing just that.

We've seen what this offense can do behind a good pass pro.....and a REAL OC.....but we blame the quarterback for regressing.  Palmer is 120 years old, and looks better than he did his last few years in stripes.  Really tells me all I need to know.....

[Millhouse]

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 01:30 PM)Millhouse Wrote:

I actually remember that episode....perfect gif.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 01:27 PM)Wyche Wrote: Sure, I'm all for it.  My point is, why in the **** did they let it get to this point in the first place?  What's to stop them from Bungalizing another QB?  Wash, rinse, repeat.  

What's to stop them?
Being willing to finally bring in a premier outside FA or two for the OL.

By letting Dalton go (or even better trade), they immediately get the money to pay for Nate Solder for three years. If they can't get Solder, they'll need to draft a new LT because the rest of the FA market besides Solder is bad.
By letting a couple other veterans go (LaFell, MJ, Adam Jones), they would also have the money to cover a nice contract for a good center like Richburg.
Draft another OT as well.
Try Fisher or Ogbuehi at RG to see if they can become a good player at that position since they have yet to prove they can do so at OT.

A line of Solder, Boling, Richburg, Ogbuehi/Fisher, 1st/2nd round OT plus the weapons the Bengals have should (in theory) make for a solid team even with a rookie QB.

[Pat5775]

(09-26-2017, 01:29 PM)Wyche Wrote: We've seen what this offense can do behind a good pass pro.....and a REAL OC.....but we blame the quarterback for regressing.  Palmer is 120 years old, and looks better than he did his last few years in stripes.  Really tells me all I need to know.....

Exactly.

And Palmer's line absolutely sucked last night. Yet he found a way to put together a decent game. Best he's had in a long time. I wonder though, did the Arizona coaches make adjustments for the atrocious OL... or did Carson simply adjust to the pressure, not let it get to him, settle in and make the throws? 

One thing was for sure, Carson didn't panic and throw the ball the away the second there was pressure. Nor did he panic and sense pressure that wasn't there. He wasn't anything like Andy this past Sunday. But Carson looked HORRIBLE the first two games. Just as bad as Andy if not worse. So that gives me some hope that Andy will eventually relax, right... Right??  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 01:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What's to stop them?
Being willing to finally bring in a premier outside FA or two for the OL.

By letting Dalton go (or even better trade), they immediately get the money to pay for Nate Solder for three years. If they can't get Solder, they'll need to draft a new LT because the rest of the FA market besides Solder is bad.
By letting a couple other veterans go (LaFell, MJ, Adam Jones), they would also have the money to cover a nice contract for a good center like Richburg.
Draft another OT as well.
Try Fisher or Ogbuehi at RG to see if they can become a good player at that position since they have yet to prove they can do so at OT.

A line of Solder, Boling, Richburg, Ogbuehi/Fisher, 1st/2nd round OT plus the weapons the Bengals should (in theory) make for a solid team even with a rookie QB.

Sure.....but when have they ever done anything like this?  They had the cap space to do something THIS year, and sat on their asses.  When have they EVER been active in FA in week 1, let alone day 1?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 01:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If a QB's performance goes from 10-15 down to bottom barrel because of a decline in OL, that QB is not a franchise QB.

It's been 3 games. And 1 of those 3 he played pretty well.

(09-26-2017, 01:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There are a few good players to target in FA and/or the draft for OL. I'm not saying OL shouldn't be upgraded.
But at this point, how anyone can think Dalton can get the Bengals a championship is beyond me. Dalton is a middle-tier QB when he's playing well, a lower-tier QB when not.

The Ravens won a Super Bowl with Joe Flacco. The same Flacco who is CURRENTLY lower rated than Dalton.
Also, Dalton is ABOVE a middle-tire QB when playing well. Prior to his injury 2 years ago, he was in the talk for league MVP (it may have been only whispers, but it was still talk).

(09-26-2017, 01:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: QBs that have come out since Dalton that I'd take over him right now:
Andrew Luck (shoulder issues aside)
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Russell Wilson
Derek Carr
Dak Prescott
Carson Wentz

Now only three of those are not first rounders, but the point is those players can be found with proper scouting.

I'm not sold on Mariota or Wentz (yet) and Dalton has proven to be at least equal to Luck, statistically speaking, but to each his own.

(09-26-2017, 01:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: With what looks to be a good QB class in 2018 and Dalton's contract only having $2.4 mill of dead cap after this year, it could be a very good time to move on from him.

While I think the Bengals can win with Dalton, I would have no problem if the Bengals drafted what they believe could be the next elite QB in the draft. It would be nice to have a QB that all Bengals fans agree is good, but then again, even prior to his injuries there were Bengals fans that crapped on Palmer, so it might never happen.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 01:44 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Exactly.

And Palmer's line absolutely sucked last night. Yet he found a way to put together a decent game. Best he's had in a long time. I wonder though, did the Arizona coaches make adjustments for the atrocious OL... or did Carson simply adjust to the pressure, not let it get to him, settle in and make the throws? 

One thing was for sure, Carson didn't panic and throw the ball the away the second there was pressure. Nor did he panic and sense pressure that wasn't there. He wasn't anything like Andy this past Sunday. But Carson looked HORRIBLE the first two games. Just as bad as Andy if not worse. So that gives me some hope that Andy will eventually relax, right... Right??  

I dunno man.....Dalton may be in real trouble here.  Palmer left and took some lumps in Oakland, and then got with some good coaching in AZ.  Palmer's trouble here, in my opinion, was he forced things when the pressure was on, while Dalton tries to make the safe plays.  I don't know if that is a coach in his ear, or if he has taken that on himself.  Only he knows that.  Carson was over-confident in his arm, Dalton is the polar opposite.  

2015, 14 was in the NFL MVP discussion behind a good line, and with a real OC.  At the start of 2016, he was still playing at that level, remember the Jets game?  Sacked 7 times and still threw for 366 yards, no turnovers, and a couple TDs if memory serves.  He steadily regressed from there.  Maybe Lazor can help him find his rhythm again, and help build his confidence back, maybe not.  As I noted above, give them till the bye week and see, and if not, you gotta go in another direction.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 01:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: Sure.....but when have they ever done anything like this?  They had the cap space to do something THIS year, and sat on their asses.  When have they EVER been active in FA in week 1, let alone day 1?

Just because they haven't traditionally done it doesn't mean they won't ever.
Ken Zampese is a great example.
Many of us thought he would stick through the rest of the season at least.
Yet he was fired after the Houston game.
I sure didn't think that would have happened knowing the traditional behavior of this organization.

And to follow up on my previous post...if the line isn't fixed, why do you want to still throw Dalton out there when he's occupying $16+ mill to underperform? Why not instead draft some QB who will be MUCH cheaper? If all that matters is having a good OL, I'd rather the Bengals roll with a QB on a rookie contract. At least having that money available means there's SOME chance it could be invested to upgrade the OL. With the amount of money set for the next couple years, the Bengals will only be able to afford one good outside FA OL and have to draft the rest. But getting rid of Dalton's contract could allow a much faster turnaround in success if that money saved were invested properly.

So let me flip the script on you.

If the Bengals keep Dalton, how do they get to the point of restoring this offense and winning a playoff game?
If they don't have the money to sign a couple outside FA OL, they will have to develop that talent from the draft.
Based on how the Bengals have been drafting OL, that very well may take years (if at all).
That leaves a serviceable-but-completely-OL-dependent QB (and the rest of the team) through the next few years, completely wasting the core of this team and ultimately accomplishing nothing.