When does the honeymoon with Tobin end?

[J24]

(10-24-2017, 11:06 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Can you add 
5.) why do we have two starting SS and no FS ? 

Since Reggie left we don't get as many turnovers

Reggie was more a SS while he was here(actually he did everything well while he was here ). I don't have a problem with the safety position but I get where you are coming from it would be nice to have an excellent ball Hawk on the team though. I would not mind some 3 safety looks when Smith comes back. Move Williams to LB on passing downs.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-23-2017, 07:06 PM)McC Wrote: Never touch a C before the 4th round.   Don't consider interior linemen a priority.   That's really working, ain't it?  It comes down to having a maddening ability to ignore a mountain of evidence that your way ain't the right way.

Prioritizing interior lineman is ultimately our achilles heel imo. 

[XenoMorph]

(10-23-2017, 03:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What is Tobin's role in the draft and how much input does he have? Does he put together the scouting reports on all the draftees? Is he the one mainly responsible for having "our board" set up in a certain order? Does he make recommendations on who to pick?

I know Lewis is the one who ultimately makes the pick, so I'd need more info on Tobin's role before crucifying him over any failed draft picks.

Pretty sure tobin pulls the strings in the draft room

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 12:51 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Prioritizing interior lineman is ultimately our achilles heel imo. 

Drafting 3 CB's in the 1st Round ultimately is hurting us now at other positions too. It's hard to invest that many resources into 1 spot.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 12:46 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Reggie was more a SS while he was here(actually he did everything well while he was here ). I don't have a problem with the safety position but I get where you are coming from it would be nice to have an excellent ball Hawk on the team though. I would not mind some 3 safety looks when Smith comes back. Move Williams to LB on passing downs.

I've read that the Bengals view the safety position as interchangeable.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-23-2017, 07:06 PM)McC Wrote: Never touch a C before the 4th round.   Don't consider interior linemen a priority.   That's really working, ain't it?  It comes down to having a maddening ability to ignore a mountain of evidence that your way ain't the right way.

Coincidence the Bengals' best C in the Marvin Lewis era was Rich Braham, who was a THIRD round pick by Atlanta and picked up by Cincinnati before his rookie season started?
I THINK NOT!
GET A DAMN CENTER WHO IS A THIRD ROUNDER OR BETTER. AND PICK SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY PROVEN TO BE GOOD ON TAPE, NOT JUST LIFTED 225 LBS A LOT OF TIMES!

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-23-2017, 04:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is the crux of all the problems tbh. 
We are just messing around blaming anyone but Mike at this point. 

We have a horrendously small scouting department.
We ask way too much of coaches in terms of scouting.

All because Mike is cheap.

I've said it several times before and I'll say it again. 

Much has been made the last few years about how Mike Brown has stepped back and how Katie, Marvin, and Duke are calling the shots. I call poppycock to that !

Oh I don't doubt at all the Mike Brown is not sitting in the war room saying we're taking Akili Smith in the 1st round. But in the same breath I'm pretty sure MB said you guys drafted Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine and they're playing and it doesn't matter if they suck. And besides it will save me money, it's a win - win for me.

Which just goes along with Mike's we honor contracts BS. Which is just another way to be cheap. Along with the whole comp. picks BS, just code for being cheap. Mike's not making the picks but he still very much controls how the team is ran. 

I'm not taking up for Tobin but he's handicapped by Charlie Brown and his cheap ways.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 10:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've said it several times before and I'll say it again. 

Much has been made the last few years about how Mike Brown has stepped back and how Katie, Marvin, and Duke are calling the shots. I call poppycock to that !

Oh I don't doubt at all the Mike Brown is not sitting in the war room saying we're taking Akili Smith in the 1st round. But in the same breath I'm pretty sure MB said you guys drafted Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine and they're playing and it doesn't matter if they suck. And besides it will save me money, it's a win - win for me.

Which just goes along with Mike's we honor contracts BS. Which is just another way to be cheap. Along with the whole comp. picks BS, just code for being cheap. Mike's not making the picks but he still very much controls how the team is ran. 

I'm not taking up for Tobin but he's handicapped by Charlie Brown and his cheap ways.

The whole letting quality players leave and saying its to get Comp picks is an extreme handicap. Part of that strategy is signing free agents that were cut since it doesn't count in the Comp pick formula.

Not paying Guards or Centers, etc.

It's all a handicap.

[jowczarski]

The Bengals scouting staff is incredibly small. The front office and coaches do play a very active role.
As for who makes "final calls" - no one really knows. They choose to keep that to themselves.

Regardless - it is fair to look through the recent drafts.
2012 - hard to argue with that draft at all, TBH.

2013 - Bernard is it, and while he's paid like a top RB, he's obviously not a franchise-changer at the position.
Eifert gave one good year out of five. Unfortunately, that can be considered a bust.

2014 - Bodine. Say what you want, but getting a starter from day one in Rd. 4 who played every game for four years on a rookie deal while you paid Whitworth/Smith/Zeitler in those same years is a decent pick and financially reasonable. Hill was a productive player for two seasons. OK role player, not quite the second-round star he looked to be. Dennard is drifting into Eifert territory. Basically he'll have an $8 million "prove it" year - maybe. If they don't pick up Jones' option next year can you really start Dennard over WJ3 on the outside next year with the way WJ3 is going? Yes, nickel corners are essentially starters but are any making $8 million?

2015 - We're in year 3. Big financial decisions loom this coming offseasons with Fisher, Kroft - if they are warranted. Same with Ogbuehi re: 5th year option. Dawson a bust. Role players at best (Smith, Shaw, Kroft) - good to have, sure, but no full-time starters at this point. Not good.

2016 and 2017 looking OK thus far.

Three missed drafts in a row though? Tough to overcome.

Not sure there is a honeymoon, but you're right re: "blame" - it's a shared responsibility. Everyone plays their role.

Here are my Q&A's with Tobin in the last two offseasons. You may not like his answers (like this one from '17 " I don’t really have a lot to offer in a thorough review of different draft classes."
2016: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2016/02/01/questions-cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin/79626468/
2017: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/27/cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin-talks-nfl-draft-mccarron-and-kickers/97154184/

[*Go Cards*]

Not hanging it on Tobin per every team has misses.

Bet he could do better with more scouts though.

Also believe that the FO sticks their nose in on the early draft picks.

Think that happened this year as a matter of fact.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2017, 12:33 AM)jowczarski Wrote: The Bengals scouting staff is incredibly small. The front office and coaches do play a very active role.
As for who makes "final calls" - no one really knows. They choose to keep that to themselves.

Regardless - it is fair to look through the recent drafts.
2012 - hard to argue with that draft at all, TBH.

2013 - Bernard is it, and while he's paid like a top RB, he's obviously not a franchise-changer at the position.
Eifert gave one good year out of five. Unfortunately, that can be considered a bust.

2014 - Bodine. Say what you want, but getting a starter from day one in Rd. 4 who played every game for four years on a rookie deal while you paid Whitworth/Smith/Zeitler in those same years is a decent pick and financially reasonable. Hill was a productive player for two seasons. OK role player, not quite the second-round star he looked to be. Dennard is drifting into Eifert territory. Basically he'll have an $8 million "prove it" year - maybe. If they don't pick up Jones' option next year can you really start Dennard over WJ3 on the outside next year with the way WJ3 is going? Yes, nickel corners are essentially starters but are any making $8 million?

2015 - We're in year 3. Big financial decisions loom this coming offseasons with Fisher, Kroft - if they are warranted. Same with Ogbuehi re: 5th year option. Dawson a bust. Role players at best (Smith, Shaw, Kroft) - good to have, sure, but no full-time starters at this point. Not good.

2016 and 2017 looking OK thus far.

Three missed drafts in a row though? Tough to overcome.

Not sure there is a honeymoon, but you're right re: "blame" - it's a shared responsibility. Everyone plays their role.

Here are my Q&A's with Tobin in the last two offseasons. You may not like his answers (like this one from '17 " I don’t really have a lot to offer in a thorough review of different draft classes."
2016: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2016/02/01/questions-cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin/79626468/
2017: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/27/cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin-talks-nfl-draft-mccarron-and-kickers/97154184/

I think it's fair to say some heads need to roll for this. I realize the human aspect, but that's just how the NFL works. 3 awful drafts in a row, historically bad o-line and run game, 8-13-1 record since last year. Another embarrassing spanking in Pittsburgh. 0-7 in the playoffs and it looks like it's going to stay that way for awhile.

This team needs a lot of change.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-26-2017, 12:33 AM)jowczarski Wrote: The Bengals scouting staff is incredibly small. The front office and coaches do play a very active role.
As for who makes "final calls" - no one really knows. They choose to keep that to themselves.

Regardless - it is fair to look through the recent drafts.
2012 - hard to argue with that draft at all, TBH.

2013 - Bernard is it, and while he's paid like a top RB, he's obviously not a franchise-changer at the position.
Eifert gave one good year out of five. Unfortunately, that can be considered a bust.

2014 - Bodine. Say what you want, but getting a starter from day one in Rd. 4 who played every game for four years on a rookie deal while you paid Whitworth/Smith/Zeitler in those same years is a decent pick and financially reasonable. Hill was a productive player for two seasons. OK role player, not quite the second-round star he looked to be. Dennard is drifting into Eifert territory. Basically he'll have an $8 million "prove it" year - maybe. If they don't pick up Jones' option next year can you really start Dennard over WJ3 on the outside next year with the way WJ3 is going? Yes, nickel corners are essentially starters but are any making $8 million?

2015 - We're in year 3. Big financial decisions loom this coming offseasons with Fisher, Kroft - if they are warranted. Same with Ogbuehi re: 5th year option. Dawson a bust. Role players at best (Smith, Shaw, Kroft) - good to have, sure, but no full-time starters at this point. Not good.

2016 and 2017 looking OK thus far.

Three missed drafts in a row though? Tough to overcome.

Not sure there is a honeymoon, but you're right re: "blame" - it's a shared responsibility. Everyone plays their role.

Here are my Q&A's with Tobin in the last two offseasons. You may not like his answers (like this one from '17 " I don’t really have a lot to offer in a thorough review of different draft classes."
2016: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2016/02/01/questions-cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin/79626468/
2017: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/27/cincinnati-bengals-director-of-player-personnel-duke-tobin-talks-nfl-draft-mccarron-and-kickers/97154184/

Fantastic post Jim. Our drafts have been worse than I even realized. Couple them with our free agent losses the past 2 years, and our overall roster definitely got worse.

I think I agree with all of it except the Bodine portion and I partially agree with that on the surface. The reason I disagree is because Bodine didn't come in here and beat some good veteran Center out as a 4th Round pick. He was basically handed the starting job with little competition. But, as I say...on the surface level seeing a 4th Rounder start Day 1 is big.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-26-2017, 09:29 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think it's fair to say some heads need to roll for this. I realize the human aspect, but that's just how the NFL works. 3 awful drafts in a row, historically bad o-line and run game, 8-13-1 record since last year. Another embarrassing spanking in Pittsburgh. 0-7 in the playoffs and the playoffs it looks like it's going to stay that way for ahile.

This team needs a lot of change.

I read that article from 2000 about how the Bengals didn't give players shoes and individual jock strap yesterday and it really made me think...that was 6-7 years into Mike Browns tenure. The Bengals management has only worked for the Bengals...so none see how other organizations do things. They don't know that the way we do things are not the same.

Then Marvin has been here some 14-15 years. Alexander has been here some 24 years. Guenther has been with Marvin for some 14 years.

Lazor is outside. Maybe a few other assistants, but even they tend to stay here for a long time.

Without having outside people, you can't see how other teams do things...and it eventually leads to complacency.

Marvin came from outside years ago and came in and changed some things...but at some point he was indoctrinated into the 'Bengals way.'

[Brownshoe]

I really don't think Tobin is the problem. We did miss 3 drafts in a row, but when he's done good 4 out of the last 7 I don't think it's that bad. I think the biggest thing is that we need someone to help with drafting for the OL. Alexander obviously isn't the best one to help with that.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2017, 10:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I read that article from 2000 about how the Bengals didn't give players shoes and individual jock strap yesterday and it really made me think...that was 6-7 years into Mike Browns tenure. The Bengals management has only worked for the Bengals...so none see how other organizations do things. They don't know that the way we do things are not the same.

Then Marvin has been here some 14-15 years. Alexander has been here some 24 years. Guenther has been with Marvin for some 14 years.

Lazor is outside. Maybe a few other assistants, but even they tend to stay here for a long time.

Without having outside people, you can't see how other teams do things...and it eventually leads to complacency.

Marvin came from outside years ago and came in and changed some things...but at some point he was indoctrinated into the 'Bengals way.'

The assistants we do bring in from other teams aren't exactly in a position of power to where they can question the top dogs in the organization, either. Plus we have an owner that happens to be both an idiot and a control freak. Unlike pretzel filled with cheese, that's not a good combo. 

Who can question the owner? That's why an owner as GM is a terrible idea. It's like if Matt Millen bought the Lions.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2017, 10:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I really don't think Tobin is the problem. We did miss 3 drafts in a row, but when he's done good 4 out of the last 7 I don't think it's that bad. I think the biggest thing is that we need someone to help with drafting for the OL. Alexander obviously isn't the best one to help with that.

You're on a roll. Alexander picked Bodine, Ogbuehi and Fisher, and that's why this team is struggling so bad right now. 

It's fair to criticize Tobin for guys like Dennard and Eifert, but the o-line is the biggest issue holding us back, and it's not even close.

[Sled21]

(10-26-2017, 10:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I really don't think Tobin is the problem. We did miss 3 drafts in a row, but when he's done good 4 out of the last 7 I don't think it's that bad. I think the biggest thing is that we need someone to help with drafting for the OL. Alexander obviously isn't the best one to help with that.

Well, Jon Toth had his back surgery, which kept him out of the draft, and should be back in shape by now I would think, and is sitting home on the couch. The Bengals could call him up and get him on the cheap, and upgrade the Center/Guard position overnight.....

[THE PISTONS]

(10-26-2017, 10:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I really don't think Tobin is the problem. We did miss 3 drafts in a row, but when he's done good 4 out of the last 7 I don't think it's that bad. I think the biggest thing is that we need someone to help with drafting for the OL. Alexander obviously isn't the best one to help with that.

We can't say he's done good 4 out of the last 7. These last 2 drafts are Incomplete grades at best. For a Great Draft, you need atleast 1 Pro Bowl player and another quality starter or two. For a Good draft, I'd say you need 2 quality starters.

We're assuming Mixon and Ross will be stars. And Mixon looks talented...but he's averaging 3.2 ypc.

Lawson looks good too...but most of his sacks were in 1 game against a backup Tackle. He's going to need to keep doing it against good players and he needs to work a lot on his run defense. He's 1 dimensional now.

I'd say that our last Good+ draft was 2011.

From 2016 - William Jackson looks good. Who else looks like a really good starter? Boyd - No. Vigil - Below average at best so far. Billings? He's been bad so far.

From 2012 - Dre Kirkpatrick is the only player still on the roster.

2011 - Great Draft with Dalton, Green, Boling.
2010 - Great Draft with Dunlap and Atkins.
2009 - Huber, Andre Smith, Maualuga, Michael Johnson - I'd call that an average to above average draft.
2008 - Bad Draft.
2007 - Leon Hall and no one else. Average draft.

[*Go Cards*]

Although I disagreed with this years early selections per needing trench help desperately.

Not ready to call this years players busts. In my opinion it was the wrong positions drafted early, but like some of these new guys and think some may end up being great even.

Anytime you come out of a draft with even one great NFL player it is a good year in my book.

Problem is only one (Lawson) seemed to be from a position of need. That is where I see the problem lurking, not attacking what was needed and going for flash instead.

Think that is MB stepping in personally. Have no proof but believe the evidence is in how often Marvin (a defensive coach) has drafted offense players early on. Odd for a defensive minded coach to do this.

[Brownshoe]

(10-26-2017, 11:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We can't say he's done good 4 out of the last 7. These last 2 drafts are Incomplete grades at best. For a Great Draft, you need atleast 1 Pro Bowl player and another quality starter or two. For a Good draft, I'd say you need 2 quality starters.

We're assuming Mixon and Ross will be stars. And Mixon looks talented...but he's averaging 3.2 ypc.

Lawson looks good too...but most of his sacks were in 1 game against a backup Tackle. He's going to need to keep doing it against good players and he needs to work a lot on his run defense. He's 1 dimensional now.

I'd say that our last Good+ draft was 2011.

From 2016 - William Jackson looks good. Who else looks like a really good starter? Boyd - No. Vigil - Below average at best so far. Billings? He's been bad so far.

From 2012 - Dre Kirkpatrick is the only player still on the roster.

2011 - Great Draft with Dalton, Green, Boling.
2010 - Great Draft with Dunlap and Atkins.
2009 - Huber, Andre Smith, Maualuga, Michael Johnson - I'd call that an average to above average draft.
2008 - Bad Draft.
2007 - Leon Hall and no one else. Average draft.

Just because players from 2012 aren't on the roster doesn't mean it was a bad draft. If that was the case most of our drafts will be bad, because we apparently don't extend players. We got Zeitler, Jones, and Sanu from 2012 too, so it was a GREAT draft. 

2011 - was a great draft too (Green, Dalton, Boling).
2012 - see above
2013 - Average at best
2014 - Below average
2015 - Bad
2016 - Good+ so far - we have WJIII (who looks good), Vigil (who leads the team in tackles),Fejedelem who seems to be a good special teams player, and an up and comer.
2017 - Great so far - Ross is a ?, Mixon looks good even though he has a bad YPC (due to OL), Lawson, and Willis look like they will be good players for years to come, and Jake Elliot seems to be doing great for the Eagles (we DID draft him, so you have to give props to our scouts. The coaches are the ones who let him go, and fairly so).

So all in all so far 4 out of the last 7 drafts have been good to great.