Who is to Blame?

[Bengalholic]

(11-03-2017, 01:38 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: 1. MIKE BROWN
2. MIKE BROWN
3. MIKE BROWN
4. MIKE BROWN
5. MIKE BROWN
6. MIKE BROWN
7. MIKE BROWN
8. MIKE BROWN

I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.  He is the ONLY one who can hire and fire without question or explanation.  He is responsible for keeping 'ANYONE' you place below him!!

No doubt about it...Mike is and has been the #1 biggest problem with this franchise.

However, Marvin and Piano Man have chosen to work for Mike year after year, after year, after year, after year...........

Not only that, but having been here for 15 years and 20+ years...they are ingrained in the franchise, are both very close with the Brown family and each has substantial input...so they can't be absolved of blame just because Mike won't fire them. As '74 said, they are the three-headed monster, and that's where the overwhelming portion of the blame should be placed.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-03-2017, 05:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am somewhat surprised at the hatred towards Mike Brown on here.

I am not trying to defend him, but is this roster not capable of winning?  Was the 2015 not an awesome assembly of talent?  Sure, they made a business decision on Whit and Zeitler, but was the line really performing with them last year?  I blame more on schematic of predictability and not forcing defenses to alter their plan.  We simply play right in to the hands of everyone.

I get what you're saying, but it's clear to almost everyone that Marvin should've been let go at the very least 2 seasons ago. The fact that Marvin is basically the same coach now as he has been since his like 3rd season making the same calls and the same mistakes time and time again shows that he hasn't changed and/or grown as a coach. The fact that he's still here and hasn't been let go after the many different times we've blown it in the playoffs is all on Mike Brown.

Any critique of the coaching staff is valid but because they're still the coaching staff is a fault of Brown's, thus why Mike Brown should be the #1 blame for how our team is performing this season.

[Derrick]

(11-03-2017, 03:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Mike Brown's business plan doesn't involve taking active measures to win football games.  He is a business owner who doesn't do what it takes to succeed, but he inherited a business that lies within a foolproof oligopoly so it almost entirely doesn't matter.

Marvin Lewis, or any other member of the staff below Mike Brown who just coasts along and stays in line, is a mere symptom of the Mike Brown effect.

Mike Brown's business plan is to insure a steady profit margin; maintain a constant in-flow of cash from the NFL and paying fans; put a team on the field that wins enough not to lose all fan support; but not enough to incur "unwanted" expenses in FA and the post season.

Did I miss anything except maintain status quo?

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-03-2017, 05:14 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: True. We are very poorly coached and consistently out schemed. That has very little to do with Mike Brown (though he does need to grow a set and fire his underachieving employees).

I agree, but how do you fire a 15 year head coach?  It isn't easy.  Marv was done, but didn't want to be done...so Brown and his team came up with the "Hue Succession Plan".  It made sense to everyone, or so I thought.  Marv was treated fairly and given one last year to try and get his ring (or even playoff win) and Hue would take over.  The offense was soaring that year, and Paul Alexander was here and I don't think the offensive line was all that different.  There were more veteran weapons, but would anyone not think Malone, Ross, and Core could be doing what Marvin Jones and Mo Sanu were doing?  But, here they sit, getting snaps behind Lafell.  Here sits Mixon, getting snaps behind Hill.  Here sits Carl Lawson, Jordan Willis, and Chris Smith getting snaps at DE behind MJ...(and Dunlap needs to be rotated as well).  Here sits Jordan Evans behind guys like Vinny Rey (and I like Vinny Rey).  

To me, these moronic personnel decisions is killing this team and it can't be very motivating to anyone to see turds trot out there and have such talent wasting on the bench.

This, plus the absolute lack of common sense on offense.  Here is a very simple game plan that I bet would frustrate the piss out of Jax:

Two TEs, unbalanced line with 7 blockers.  Single back.  AJ Green on one side, A rotation of Ross, Malone, and Core on the other.  Dalton under center.  If either DB is off the WR by 8 yards or more.   Throw it to said WR.  That WR has one guy to make miss and he is off to the races.  Either side, that works.  So, the safeties will drop back from the LOS.  Now there are 7 players in the box against your seven linemen.  One miss, and the back is off to the races.  

This may seem incredibly simple, but if you watch how DBs play our WRs, they are rarely up on them (except Lafell, who no one fears getting behind them).  Take the yards the defense gives you.  Once they start sneaking up, pump to that WR, the DB commits, and the WR takes off downfield.  The DB will either hold them or get burnt. 

These coaches try to come up with so many different routes that rarely have time to develop but won't take this one, simple play and make it work.  

Oh, and by the way, your QB is VERY adept at those quick strikes...gets the ball out faster than just about anyone.  

But we are too G)*%$*##  stupid to do this, the TE screen, or have both our RBs on the field together. 

[McC]

(11-03-2017, 05:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am somewhat surprised at the hatred towards Mike Brown on here.

I am not trying to defend him, but is this roster not capable of winning?  Was the 2015 not an awesome assembly of talent?  Sure, they made a business decision on Whit and Zeitler, but was the line really performing with them last year?  I blame more on schematic of predictability and not forcing defenses to alter their plan.  We simply play right in to the hands of everyone.

And who is responsible for the people responsible?  This is what comes with having the big office.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-03-2017, 05:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am somewhat surprised at the hatred towards Mike Brown on here.

I am not trying to defend him, but is this roster not capable of winning?  Was the 2015 not an awesome assembly of talent?  Sure, they made a business decision on Whit and Zeitler, but was the line really performing with them last year?  I blame more on schematic of predictability and not forcing defenses to alter their plan.  We simply play right in to the hands of everyone.

Because "He who holds the most gold, rules the kingdom".  Even with all the "power" that has been delegated in recent years, as Mike Brown has aged, you still have to remember that those delegates are all Mike Brown surrogates.

So, until he officially passes the torch to the royal family, Mike Brown is still responsible for everything, weather directly or indirectly.

[Pat5775]

(11-03-2017, 06:57 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I agree, but how do you fire a 15 year head coach?  It isn't easy.  Marv was done, but didn't want to be done...so Brown and his team came up with the "Hue Succession Plan".  It made sense to everyone, or so I thought.  Marv was treated fairly and given one last year to try and get his ring (or even playoff win) and Hue would take over.  The offense was soaring that year, and Paul Alexander was here and I don't think the offensive line was all that different.  There were more veteran weapons, but would anyone not think Malone, Ross, and Core could be doing what Marvin Jones and Mo Sanu were doing?  But, here they sit, getting snaps behind Lafell.  Here sits Mixon, getting snaps behind Hill.  Here sits Carl Lawson, Jordan Willis, and Chris Smith getting snaps at DE behind MJ...(and Dunlap needs to be rotated as well).  Here sits Jordan Evans behind guys like Vinny Rey (and I like Vinny Rey).  

To me, these moronic personnel decisions is killing this team and it can't be very motivating to anyone to see turds trot out there and have such talent wasting on the bench.

This, plus the absolute lack of common sense on offense.  Here is a very simple game plan that I bet would frustrate the piss out of Jax:

Two TEs, unbalanced line with 7 blockers.  Single back.  AJ Green on one side, A rotation of Ross, Malone, and Core on the other.  Dalton under center.  If either DB is off the WR by 8 yards or more.   Throw it to said WR.  That WR has one guy to make miss and he is off to the races.  Either side, that works.  So, the safeties will drop back from the LOS.  Now there are 7 players in the box against your seven linemen.  One miss, and the back is off to the races.  

This may seem incredibly simple, but if you watch how DBs play our WRs, they are rarely up on them (except Lafell, who no one fears getting behind them).  Take the yards the defense gives you.  Once they start sneaking up, pump to that WR, the DB commits, and the WR takes off downfield.  The DB will either hold them or get burnt. 

These coaches try to come up with so many different routes that rarely have time to develop but won't take this one, simple play and make it work.  

Oh, and by the way, your QB is VERY adept at those quick strikes...gets the ball out faster than just about anyone.  

But we are too G)*%$*##  stupid to do this, the TE screen, or have both our RBs on the field together. 

I agree 100%. Music to my ears man... Hell I'd be happier with you coaching the team over Marv. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-03-2017, 07:26 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I agree 100%. Music to my ears man... Hell I'd be happier with you coaching the team over Marv. 

I try and help where I can, scouting, but Marv's inability to change his (sic) stripes has made this team incapable of being competitive.  I hate watching them play.  Honestly, I hate it.  It is like watching a caged tiger that wants to go out and hunt, but it is tied to a cage and chained to the wall.  

He uses about 1% of what this team is capable of.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-03-2017, 05:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am somewhat surprised at the hatred towards Mike Brown on here.

I am not trying to defend him, but is this roster not capable of winning?  Was the 2015 not an awesome assembly of talent?  Sure, they made a business decision on Whit and Zeitler, but was the line really performing with them last year?  I blame more on schematic of predictability and not forcing defenses to alter their plan.  We simply play right in to the hands of everyone.

Seriously ?

I could start right now (7:43PM) and type until midnight and not finish all the bumbling, fumbling, meddling MB has done with this team over the past 26 years.

But in summary MB doesn't demand a winner. MB doesn't enforce accountability. MB has not built a culture of winning. He does not promote the brand. It's a totally dysfunctional culture.

[*Go Cards*]

(11-03-2017, 01:38 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: 1. MIKE BROWN
2. MIKE BROWN
3. MIKE BROWN
4. MIKE BROWN
5. MIKE BROWN
6. MIKE BROWN
7. MIKE BROWN
8. MIKE BROWN

I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.  He is the ONLY one who can hire and fire without question or explanation.  He is responsible for keeping 'ANYONE' you place below him!!

This

[TheUberHuber]

Mike brown has earned his rep. He has always been a ******* dating all the way back to the firing of Sam wyche. I think Marvin has just become complacent tbh. He was never a good 'gameday' coach but there are stark differences in tone of Marvin led teams from now to when he first took over.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-03-2017, 09:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Well, I was fired up by the thread about people STILL slamming Dalton so I thought I would start a thread where everyone gets to list their "who is at fault" list in order.

This is just my opinion, feel free to share yours:

1.) Marvin Lewis- You have a roster most teams would die for.  Even the offensive line has talent, but hardly anyone seems to improve under your tutelage.  I hate your conservative nature.  I hate how you don't play certain players because they are not "veterans".  Your clock management has been a joke for 15 years (you have to try to suck that badly).  I stood up for you for years for getting us to respectable, but you should have been gone years ago.  No one listens to you and I won't miss you at all after this season.

2.) Paul Alexander-  You have received what you wanted numerous times and done absolutely nothing with them. Your scheme is wimpy and you don't have an ounce of aggression on your line.  Never have, honestly, despite having Pro Bowl talent for many years.  Hope to God you go with Lewis.

3.) Russell Bodine-  The weakest link on the offensive line.  A pathetic center at best.  Should have been replaced years ago.  

4.) Trey Hopkins- Nice guy, hard worker, no talent.  Not nimble enough for pass blocking, not strong enough to drive block at RG.  

5.) Jeremy Hill-  Waste of snaps.  Please just go away.  You are not a good receiver, you are not good at blitz pick up, and you don't play special teams.  Would have much rather seen Tra Carson get a shot.  Buh-bye.

6.) Pat Sims-  A surprise to some, but if you watch Fat Pat, he may occupy a space, but he gets T-Rex arms when it is time to make a tackle.  RBs can be RIGHT next to him, and he just pats them as they run by.  Useless.  

7.) Ced and Fish-  Probably a bit low on the unpopular 10 list, but I only hold them accountable for missed assignments, of which they have plenty.  I blame a lot on their coaching (or lack thereof).  College tackles aren't NFL ready in most cases with more and more teams running the spread, so taking an athlete and trying to teach them is a big risk...especially when you have #2 running that position.  Couldn't really separate the two.  For me, both have been horrible.  I hear they are scoring better.  Great.  Get ready for a PFF single digit score after facing Jax.

8.) Bill Lazor- Another surprise, for some at least.  This is his offense.  If he doesn't stand up to Marv and get the weapons out there and get more out of his rushing attack, then it is on him.  The way they approach rushing the ball is just flawed on so many levels.  Sorry, Bill, but that effort against pitt and Indy was downright awful.  It is on you now.

9.) Andy Dalton-  100% NOT because of his play on the field.  He needs to be tougher on his line.  Case in point:  When Boomer came back in for Blake due to injury, he told the oline that the next guy that allows a free rusher is going to get a football to their temple at 90 MPH.  They suddenly learned how to block.  Dalton may not have that kind of asshole in him, but the QB has to be the leader, and the leader needs to show his ass from time to time.  I also believe Dalton has enough skins on the wall to go to Lazor and say "We need to run the GD TE screen on those downs and stop getting me killed!".  He should be addressing the personnel and the play calling.  He also needs to check to more rush plays with certain defensive formations.  His guys simply don't get open quickly enough for those play designs (see personnel, sucks ass).

10.) The NFL and Officiating:  The BS that happens to Burfict, the horrible calls game in and game out, the worthless morons that run this league....it isn't changing the outcome of their season, but it sure makes it hard to enjoy.  

That's mine....what's yours?

It obviously starts with Management as they control most of those variables. IF Marvin was to blame...it still falls on management for keeping him as the coach.

[JB Bengal]

(11-03-2017, 06:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get what you're saying, but it's clear to almost everyone that Marvin should've been let go at the very least 2 seasons ago. The fact that Marvin is basically the same coach now as he has been since his like 3rd season making the same calls and the same mistakes time and time again shows that he hasn't changed and/or grown as a coach. The fact that he's still here and hasn't been let go after the many different times we've blown it in the playoffs is all on Mike Brown.

Any critique of the coaching staff is valid but because they're still the coaching staff is a fault of Brown's, thus why Mike Brown should be the #1 blame for how our team is performing this season.

^^^^^^ This right here.  While I appreciate what Marv's done while he's been here, it's obvious the team should have moved on long ago.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-03-2017, 08:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Seriously ?

I could start right now (7:43PM) and type until midnight and not finish all the bumbling, fumbling, meddling MB has done with this team over the past 26 years.

But in summary MB doesn't demand a winner. MB doesn't enforce accountability. MB has not built a culture of winning. He does not promote the brand. It's a totally dysfunctional culture.

I get his complete history, but if you rate the management over the past 15 years, they did increase the scouting department, expanded the training facilities, brought in some excellent coaches and have one of the winningest teams (I know the playoff record) in the NFL over the past 8 years. 

They also have done something this year that I complained about for ages:  They tied the team to some of its past with the 50th Anniversary Team and the new pictures, quotes, etc hung on giant murals at the stadium.

The truth is, I think had they even won two playoff games (let's say the SD game and the steeler debacle) that people wouldn't hate them quite as much, but I put both of those losses squarely on the plate of the coaches.  They had the team, but didn't have them disciplined or prepared.

Regardless, we can agree to disagree...not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong.  I am just surprised that is where the blame falls for so many. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-03-2017, 10:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It obviously starts with Management as they control most of those variables. IF Marvin was to blame...it still falls on management for keeping him as the coach.

Yes, I wanted him gone after the SD game, but then would we have had the 2015 season that we did?  I know it didn't end the way we wanted with Dalton's injury and the playoff debacle, but I think that team was clearly good enough to win it all, and that is the job of the so-called GM is to put winning talent on the roster.  The coach has to make it happen.  

We lost so much when we lost Hue.  I know, 1-23 at Cleveland, but that team has been stripped of any talent it ever had and he has a TON of picks moving forward.  I don't know if I agree with the strategy, but if they stay with him I think he will build a winner.  

[*Go Cards*]

MB for being loyal to PA
and PA for the horrid OL.


OL for how bad the team is playing.

But all can be traced back to MB

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yes, I wanted him gone after the SD game, but then would we have had the 2015 season that we did?  I know it didn't end the way we wanted with Dalton's injury and the playoff debacle, but I think that team was clearly good enough to win it all, and that is the job of the so-called GM is to put winning talent on the roster.  The coach has to make it happen.  

We lost so much when we lost Hue.  I know, 1-23 at Cleveland, but that team has been stripped of any talent it ever had and he has a TON of picks moving forward.  I don't know if I agree with the strategy, but if they stay with him I think he will build a winner.  

In general when you reach above average and fear making a change because you could get worse...you rob yourself of the chance to be great.

Good enough is the enemy of great.

What Cleveland has that we don't besides all of the draft picks is a willingness to spend on free agents. I mean they're willing to spend on Guards and Centers. It should eventually pay off, but who knows?

[HarleyDog]

There is no discipline or accountability on this team. That falls on MB and ML. Both want to leave a legacy of giving players 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances and their loyalty to Coaches, players and veterans is ridiculous. In order to gain a starting position, you must have played well in the past, not so much earning it in the present. The fan-base is thought of as nothing but sheep and finding new ways to lure you and convince you mediocrity is ok as your head is slam locked into a fence as MB drops drawers and nail's you straight in the keister, while ML stands their and claps furiously with a constant satisfying giggle. Then, as you look at PA, WTF does he do? Absolutely nothing. Why? Because he has no clue how to coach the OL. He is possibly the worst coach in the NFL period, EVER!

I don't hang much on Dalton because man, WTH is the guy to do? He doesn't have enough time to do anything on the field. However, as mentioned earlier, he sucks as a leader. He's not aggressive or commanding by any means and that might be his biggest weakness.

Lazor - Well, I don't really know where to place his branch on the blame tree. I think he wants to win and has a decent resume. Yet he is not coaching up to his reputation. This might be a direct result of the lack of discipline. You can't coach complacency.

At the end of the day, our Bengals trophy cases are slammed full of meaningless participation trophies that only the FO and coaching staff are proud of displaying. Fans on the other hand, well, you know how you feel.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 10:04 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: There is no discipline or accountability on this team. That falls on MB and ML. Both want to leave a legacy of giving players 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances and their loyalty to Coaches, players and veterans is ridiculous. In order to gain a starting position, you must have played well in the past, not so much earning it in the present. The fan-base is thought of as nothing but sheep and finding new ways to lure you and convince you mediocrity is ok as your head is slam locked into a fence as MB drops drawers and nail's you straight in the keister, while ML stands their and claps furiously with a constant satisfying giggle. Then, as you look at PA, WTF does he do? Absolutely nothing. Why? Because he has no clue how to coach the OL. He is possibly the worst coach in the NFL period, EVER!

I don't hang much on Dalton because man, WTH is the guy to do? He doesn't have enough time to do anything on the field. However, as mentioned earlier, he sucks as a leader. He's not aggressive or commanding by any means and that might be his biggest weakness.

Lazor - Well, I don't really know where to place his branch on the blame tree. I think he wants to win and has a decent resume. Yet he is not coaching up to his reputation. This might be a direct result of the lack of discipline. You can't coach complacency.

At the end of the day, our Bengals trophy cases are slammed full of meaningless participation trophies that only the FO and coaching staff are proud of displaying. Fans on the other hand, well, you know how you feel.

Exactly. How can you create a culture of discipline when you draft handfuls of players with major red flags? Some with incidents on the field. Some with incidents off the field.

Honestly, IF we hired a disciplinarian coach from OUTSIDE the Bengals like a young Coughlin...you may see guys like Jones and Burfict gone...QUICK. Some coaches won't tolerate stupid personal fouls over and over.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-03-2017, 07:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Mike Brown is still responsible for everything, weather directly or indirectly.

Mike Brown's responsible for the weather, too?!