The big 3 is the problem

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 12:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You could put Tom Brady behind a High School offensive line and he would not look terrible. 

The above is a comparison that has been made far too many times in this forum. There are a good many current QBs that would do just fine behind this oline. Russell Wilson has played behind terrible protection and no rushing game and is having a fine season. Aaron Rodgers was getting killed (got killed) and had a WR as a RB. Kirk Cousins has no oline or WRs and his RB is someone called Fat Rob. Hell even Josh McCown with absolutely nothing in NYJ currently has a passer rating in the high 90s.

I haven't seen their updated unit rankings, but through the first 5 weeks of this season PFF had Washington's o-line ranked 5th best, the Packers at 10th best. the Pats at 11th. The Seahawks, at 27, would be the most comparable to the Bengals, who were at 30...but they went out and acquired Duane Brown in an attempt to help the QB. 

If you don't like PFF, there's PFO's rankings through week 9. They have:

Wash - 20th run blocking, 19th pass pro
GB - 3rd run blocking, 26th pass pro
NE - 2nd run blocking, 15th pass pro
Sea - 27th run blocking, 16th pass pro
CIN - 31st run blocking, 29th pass pro


Even though each of those lines has it's own individual problems, none of them is as bad - as a unit, and in both run blocking and pass pro combined - as the Bengals line. 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 12:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Maybe, just maybe Wilson is a little better escaping pressure than Andy. Of course one could just ignore the obvious similarities and simply post sack stats and a .7 Yards per rush stat. 

If Wilson is escaping that pressure, why did you bring him up? Wilson's line has had a bad rep lately because Wilson takes a good amount of sacks. Not at the rate Dalton is this year, but still too many. 

FYI: 0.7 yards/carry is the difference between the #1 most efficient run team (Dallas) and #15 (NY Jets). We ran 446 times last year. A difference of 0.7 YPC would've been 312 yards on the season.

FYI 2: You left out the extra 30 rush yards Seattle is averaging.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 12:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If Wilson is escaping that pressure, why did you bring him up? Wilson's line has had a bad rep lately because Wilson takes a good amount of sacks. Not at the rate Dalton is this year, but still too many. 

FYI: 0.7 rush yards is the difference between the #1 most efficient run team (Dallas) and #15 (NY Jets). We ran 446 times last year. A difference of 0.7 YPC would've been 312 yards on the season.

FYI 2: You left out the extra 30 rush yards Seattle is averaging.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............Maybe, just maybe I brought him up because the topic was no one could do well behind our oline. 


30 more rushing yards per game you say? Damn, I retract the comparison. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 12:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen their updated unit rankings, but through the first 5 weeks of this season PFF had Washington's o-line ranked 5th best, the Packers at 10th best. the Pats at 11th. The Seahawks, at 27, would be the most comparable to the Bengals, who were at 30...but they went out and acquired Duane Brown in an attempt to help the QB. 

If you don't like PFF, there's PFO's rankings through week 9. They have:

Wash - 20th run blocking, 19th pass pro
GB - 3rd run blocking, 26th pass pro
NE - 2nd run blocking, 15th pass pro
Sea - 27th run blocking, 16th pass pro
CIN - 31st run blocking, 29th pass pro


Even though each of those lines has it's own individual problems, none of them is as bad - as a unit, and in both run blocking and pass pro combined - as the Bengals line. 

...and none of them have a passer rating as bad as the Bengals either. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 01:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and none of them have a passer rating as bad as the Bengals either. 

So, the QB with the worst overall line of the 5 has the lowest QB rating? Who woulda thunk it? 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 01:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............Maybe, just maybe I brought him up because the topic was no one could do well behind our oline. 


30 more rushing yards per game you say? Damn, I retract the comparison. 

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut................ Wilson isn't sacked or pressured at the rate Dalton is, and PFF ranks the Seahawks 16th in Pass Pro, compared to 29th for the Bengals. I thought that had been established.

Lol 30 yards is a big difference bfine. That's the difference between the 19th ranked rushing team (Seattle) and 31st ranked team (Bengals). It's the difference between the 3rd ranked team (Philly) and 18th ranked team (NY Jets).

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut................ Wilson isn't sacked or pressured at the rate Dalton is, and PFF ranks the Seahawks 16th in Pass Pro, compared to 29th for the Bengals. I thought that had been established.

Lol 30 yards is a big difference bfine. That's the difference between the 19th ranked rushing team (Seattle) and 31st ranked team (Bengals). It's the difference between the 3rd ranked team (Philly) and 18th ranked team (NY Jets).

I'll just assume you are choosing to ignore the fact that Wilson can escape pressure better than Andy. Bottomline is they play behind similarly talented Olines (Cincy's was much better last year) and Russell has been the better QB. If folks want to bring up "so and so" could not do better behind this oline. Keep it real and use folks like Jacoby Brissett, Trevor Simien, and Carson Palmer. Don't display your ignorance and drag out names such as Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Russell Wilson. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 12:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...ownership is great. They let the 2 best players on a struggling offensive line go in free agency with no replacement. And they had some $21 million in cap space.

Owner$ship

Whit currently has an 84 overall grade, Zeitler a is at 76.6.

Their replacements? - 41.1 and 39.9. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 01:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, the QB with the worst overall line of the 5 has the lowest QB rating? Who woulda thunk it? 

Well he's actually not even close. Let's just use PFO ranking and go with the 28th rank they currently have for Dalton. Sound about right?

Do I believe there are 27 QBs in the NFL better than Andy? Hell no. Do I believe no other QB could do good behind this oline? Hell know. Andy is having a subpar season and it's all not someone else's fault.

[CornerBlitz]

The majority of this board is in love with AD and will find every excuse in the book to deflect blame. It's pathetic.

I for one will admit, I've never been a fan but in 2015 when he started finally playing like a good QB i was completely on board and even defending him to other NFL fans.

I quickly found out that 2015 was an anomaly and the rest of his career especially when seen on tape and analyzed isn't good enough to win the Lombardi.

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 01:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well he's actually not even close. Let's just use PFO ranking and go with the 28th rank they currently have for Dalton. Sound about right?

Do I believe there are 27 QBs in the NFL better than Andy? Hell no. Do I believe no other QB could do good behind this oline? Hell know. Andy is having a subpar season and it's all not someone else's fault.

I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem saying that Andy has made his share of mistakes this year. However, I will also say that when you're playing behind a line that is laughably bad, it's fair to think that the constant pressure and lack of a running game factors in to his play. It's difficult to get a fair assessment.

Also, when you're talking about guys like Brady, Wilson and Rogers...there are a couple of differences. Those are, in my opinion, three of the top 4 QB's in the game right now...and 2 of them are among the best of all-time. To say that they would do better behind this line isn't an outlandish thought, they may very well do better...which would reinforce why they are considered the best at their position. 

Andy is not an elite QB. He's not going to be able to overcome atrocious line play in the same way the 2 future HOFers and a great scrambler would be. Having said that, I would still argue that Andy has done a pretty decent job this year given the circumstances.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 01:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll just assume you are choosing to ignore the fact that Wilson can escape pressure better than Andy. Bottomline is they play behind similarly talented Olines (Cincy's was much better last year) and Russell has been the better QB. If folks want to bring up "so and so" could not do better behind this oline. Keep it real and use folks like Jacoby Brissett, Trevor Simien, and Carson Palmer. Don't display your ignorance and drag out names such as Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Russell Wilson. 

This is a far more complicated topic than either of us are letting on. Sure, Wilson can outrun a defender better than Andy (or any other QB right now), but running QB's are often among the most sacked in the NFL. Russell Wilson, Mike Vick and Kaepernick were all sacked at a high rate. Sure they can run away from a defender in a straight line, but all the running around can also lead to more sacks. Taking a sack after 5-6 seconds of running around is quite different than immediate pressure off the snap.

I feel ya on the comparisons. I try to avoid using the best QB's in the NFL for comparison. Dalton is an "above average" guy. Only the top 2-3 QB's in the NFL are going to see little drop in performance under constant pressure. 

I gotta disagree on our line being far better than Seattle's last year. The sack numbers (41 and 42) and run efficiency (23rd and 24th) were nearly identical. As were Dalton and Wilson's stats. It's crazy how similar all the stats are. Seattle remained at that level this year, and traded for an upgrade. The Bengals got even worse and brought back Eric Winston.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-11-2017, 01:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well he's actually not even close. Let's just use PFO ranking and go with the 28th rank they currently have for Dalton. Sound about right?

Do I believe there are 27 QBs in the NFL better than Andy? Hell no. Do I believe no other QB could do good behind this oline? Hell know. Andy is having a subpar season and it's all not someone else's fault.

Define "do good"

Would Rodgers "do better" behind this O-line ? There's little doubt, couple extra wins perhaps ?

Could Rodgers win a championship behind this O-line ? even for him extremely unlikely given our inability to run the ball and defense just being so-so.

Could Brady "do better" behind this O-line ? Again probably a couple wins

Could Brady win a championship behind this O-line ? No chance IMHO with everything else as is. He can't scramble at all basically. 

If do good to you is to have a few extra wins than yes I'd agree either could "do good"

If you're saying Brady or even Rodgers could come in here with this O-line and everything else as is and run over the rest of the NFL going 13-3 and sweeping away everything in front of them on the way to winning the super bowl, you're drastically overestimating even top tier elite QB's ability. IMHO

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 01:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem saying that Andy has made his share of mistakes this year. However, I will also say that when you're playing behind a line that is laughably bad, it's fair to think that the constant pressure and lack of a running game factors in to his play. It's difficult to get a fair assessment.

Also, when you're talking about guys like Brady, Wilson and Rogers...there are a couple of differences. Those are, in my opinion, three of the top 4 QB's in the game right now...and 2 of them are among the best of all-time. To say that they would do better behind this line isn't an outlandish thought, they may very do better...which would reinforce why they are considered the best at their position. 

Andy is not an elite QB. He's not going to be able to overcome atrocious line play in the same way the 2 future HOFers and a great scrambler would be. Having said that, I would still argue that Andy has done a pretty decent job this year given the circumstances.

Ditto. It's hard to say "o-line aside", but on the fairly rare occasion that Dalton has had time, he's still made mistakes. I just know that (a) good QB's have mistakes or even off years, and (b) a consistent pummeling can rattle QB's. Most QB's aren't going to take 65 sacks (in his last 24 games) and countless hits/pressures perfectly in stride. 

As bad as everyone says Dalton has been, he still has a respectable 86.5 rating (20th in the NFL) despite the o-line. Best rating in the division. He has a 101.7 rating since the OC switch.

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 01:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem saying that Andy has made his share of mistakes this year. However, I will also say that when you're playing behind a line that is laughably bad, it's fair to think that the constant pressure and lack of a running game factors in to his play. It's difficult to get a fair assessment.

Also, when you're talking about guys like Brady, Wilson and Rogers...there are a couple of differences. Those are, in my opinion, three of the top 4 QB's in the game right now...and 2 of them are among the best of all-time. To say that they would do better behind this line isn't an outlandish thought, they may very well do better...which would reinforce why they are considered the best at their position. 

Andy is not an elite QB. He's not going to be able to overcome atrocious line play in the same way the 2 future HOFers and a great scrambler would be. Having said that, I would still argue that Andy has done a pretty decent job this year given the circumstances.

And last year too under similar circumstances.  Hell, the guy has never had a decent running game his whole career.  If you add last year to this, the guy has been running for his life for a year and a half.  That gets into the head, I don't care who the QB is.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 01:55 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Define "do good"

Would Rodgers "do better" behind this O-line ? There's little doubt, couple extra wins perhaps ?

Could Rodgers win a championship behind this O-line ? even for him extremely unlikely given our inability to run the ball and defense just being so-so.

Could Brady "do better" behind this O-line ? Again probably a couple wins

Could Brady win a championship behind this O-line ? No chance IMHO with everything else as is. He can't scramble at all basically. 

If do good to you is to have a few extra wins than yes I'd agree either could "do good"

If you're saying Brady or even Rodgers could come in here with this O-line and everything else as is and run over the rest of the NFL going 13-3 and sweeping away everything in front of them on the way to winning the super bowl, you're drastically overestimating even top tier elite QB's ability. IMHO

Do good: Top 1/3 of the league in passer rating, 2.5 TDs to every INT, hold your supporting cast accountable for their shortcomings. 

Josh McGown is doing good at NYJ, Kirk Cousins is doing good at Wash

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 01:49 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: The majority of this board is in love with AD and will find every excuse in the book to deflect blame. It's pathetic.

I for one will admit, I've never been a fan but in 2015 when he started finally playing like a good QB i was completely on board and even defending him to other NFL fans.

I quickly found out that 2015 was an anomaly and the rest of his career especially when seen on tape and analyzed isn't good enough to win the Lombardi.

Yeah I can see , I read some of their stuff but when the guy says them guys had good seasons,what exactly did they do. It comes down to the Bengals winning big. Forget the personnel stats. Ryan tannahill has put up good stats,Tony Romo has put up great stats . They havnt won nothing. Romo was known for choking and injury prone. It's the same way in my group but don't look as bad as this board lol they get real nasty here and say they don't want no more threads talking about Dalton and say you are a dumb ass pretty much in other words lol . I can just imagine these people when he sky's one over a receivers head. Getem next time buddy ,you're the man dalton,you got great stats buddy. It's too bad this team sucks for you Dalton baby.

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 02:17 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Yeah I can see , I read some of their stuff but when the guy says them guys had good seasons,what exactly did they do. It comes down to the Bengals winning big. Forget the personnel stats. Ryan tannahill has put up good stats,Tony Romo has put up great stats . They havnt won nothing. Romo was known for choking and injury prone. It's the same way in my group but don't look as bad as this board lol they get real nasty here and say they don't want no more threads talking about Dalton and say you are a dumb ass pretty much in other words lol . I can just imagine these people when he sky's one over a receivers head. Getem next time buddy ,you're the man dalton,you got great stats buddy. It's too bad this team sucks for you Dalton baby.

Maybe you missed what being a Bengal did to the previous QB, the Golden Boy, the human Juggs gun, the guy who took the league by storm and ended up refusing to play another down here.  There can't be any similarities at all. 

Tell you this right now--bring in another QB, spend a high pick on one, sit back, watch it all come apart for him too.   Maybe then you'll see a pattern.  Or will it take two more, five more, ten more?  This is where QB's go to get their asses kicked.  Sure, turn the page, bring in another one.  Give him a patchwork line and no running game and bad schemes and sit back and watch the deja vu unfold.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do good: Top 1/3 of the league in passer rating, 2.5 TDs to every INT, hold your supporting cast accountable for their shortcomings. 

Josh McGown is doing good at NYJ, Kirk Cousins is doing good at Wash

McCown has 1.86 TD's to every INT, so he wouldn't meet your criteria.

Only 9 QB's meet your criteria this year. Only 5 of those have been sacked 20+ times. Here's the run-game rankings for those 5 QB's:

Alex Smith/Chiefs: 12th in yards - 3rd in yards/carry
Tom Brady/Patriots: 16th in yards - 21st in yards/carry
Carson Wentz/Eagles: 3rd in yards - 7th in yards/carry
Kirk Cousins/Redskins: 21st in yards - 22nd in yards/carry
Russell Wilson: 19th in yards - 23rd in yards/carry

Not only is Dalton getting sacked/pressured/hit at a higher rate than any of these guys, his run game is far worse. Only 8 teams are averaging less than 92.1 yards per game. We're at 72.3. It's the worst figure in team history. As is the 3.1 yards/carry. If you can find numerous examples of QB's meeting your own criteria in similar circumstances, I salute you.

(11-11-2017, 02:34 PM)McC Wrote: Maybe you missed what being a Bengal did to the previous QB, the Golden Boy, the human Juggs gun, the guy who took the league by storm and ended up refusing to play another down here.  There can't be any similarities at all.  

Tell you this right now--bring in another QB, spend a high pick on one, sit back, watch it all come apart for him too.   Maybe then you'll see a pattern.  Or will it take two more, five more, ten more?  This is where QB's go to get their asses kicked.  Sure, turn the page, bring in another one.  Give him a patchwork line and no running game and bad schemes and sit back and watch the deja vu unfold.

Nailed it. After 2010, I was pounding the table wanting a new QB. I'm not falling for it this time. I don't care if we dump Dalton. I'd actually enjoy watching him suit up elsewhere. I won't sit here and pretend things will get better with a new QB though. I know better.

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do good: Top 1/3 of the league in passer rating, 2.5 TDs to every INT, hold your supporting cast accountable for their shortcomings. 

Josh McGown is doing good at NYJ, Kirk Cousins is doing good at Wash

The Jets are 4-5 (3-5 before beating the Bills) and averaging 99 rushing yards per game.

The Redskins are 4-4 (3-4 before beating Seattle) and averaging 107 rushing yards per game.

The Bengals are 3-5 (3-4 before losing to the Jags) and averaging only 72 rushing yards per game.

So, despite the fact that they have better QB stats, better running games and better lines...they still only have one more win than the Bengals.