Scratch LT off the office the offseason need list

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Left tackle is still a glaring need. Clint Boling is better than Cedric Ogbuehi but that’s a low bar to climb over.

[grampahol]

Both tackle spots need attention. I'm ok with Clint, just one injury and we'd be stuck with CO or JF.. 
If they're going with CB at LT it means someone has to take over his guard position plus it still leaves RT WIDE open not to mention we kind of need a new Center in the world's worst way..   

[*Synric*]

(01-02-2018, 12:51 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Who plays linebacker if they didn't sign Minter? The same random rookie who did the 81.5% of the defensive snaps that Minter didn't play anyway. He played only 18.5% of the snaps. He might as well have not been there.

No, Kirkpatrick didn't earn a contract in 2017. He was good in 2016, in his 5th and contract year, and he predictably went back to being a turd in 2017 when he got paid. PFF is hardly the end-all of metrics, but they have him listed as their #91 CB in the NFL in 2017. He's also a TERRIBLE tackler, and is constantly getting thrown onto his ass and run the F over by RB.

You said they had $12m, combined with the $25m under the cap they'll be in 2018 not counting that $12m, plus $6m for cutting Jones. That's $43m.

Dennard isn't gone in 2018 because the Bengals already picked up his 5th year option ($8.5m) and that is already included in the 2018 cap space. Eifert can't stay healthy, so there's no point in mentioning him, and you already said they have to save up for Kroft. When Minter is who you have to account for leaving, you can tell you're running real thin on made up excuses.

To recap... you gave me Eifert, who has started 3 games in the last 2 years, and Minter, who played 18.5% of the defensive snaps in 2017, as the huge losses they need to budget for. Seriously?

- - - - - - - - - - -

They did waste money overpaying Burfict. They bid against themselves for some reason. Much like Bob Sanders, a great player is only great when they're actually on the field. Burfict just missed like 3.5 games from a concussion, his 5th or so concussion of his career. He's constantly injured, and now getting targeted by the league for suspensions.

He is averaging 9 games played per season over the last 4 seasons, and the Bengals threw $11m/yr at him, which is a vast overpay for a part time player. He's an amazing player WHEN he is on the field, but that isn't anywhere near often enough to justify that number. Even less so when you still had him under contract. They paid him more than Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David got, and those guys are both on the field consistently.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Honestly? They didn't extend Whit because they are idiots who didn't think he'd have a hot market (for some reason).

I don't blame them for not paying Zeitler, that was a stupid amount of money for his caliber of player. I blame them for not taking the money they saved by not signing him and using it smarter. For instance, they spent $5m on Bodine and Smith in 2017.

Which would you rather have? Bodine, Kirkpatrick, LaFell, and $12m in rollover.... OR... Andrew Whitworth, Joel Bitonio, and JC Tretter, and no rollover? I know which one would make a much better Bengals team, with an OL of Whitworth/Boling/Tretter/Bitonio/Smith.

The Bengals just use their resources really really stupidly, and don't maximize their spending ability in order to field the best possible team.

So what if you have to cut a player 2-3 years later? That's 2 years to win a SB. Other teams are too busy trying really hard to make moves to get an advantage that if you're not doing the same, you're going to end up on a 27 year playoff winless streak.

There's a reason why the Bengals haven't won a playoff game since modern FA was introduced.

Would have Whitworth Tretter and Bitino only sign for 1 season?

 If they don't extend players next year you would be absolutely right but if they extend Geno, Carlos, Kroft, Dennard.. and maybe even Eifert (who counts in the mess. I know I know he's injured but if he hadn't he would be in line for a huge contract.) The massive cap space we think they have will disappear quickly.

I'm not saying the FO made the best personel desicions. Im just saying I see what they did and WHY they did it. More than one perspective for every problem and everything is easier in hindsight.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-02-2018, 01:11 AM)Synric Wrote: Would have Whitworth Tretter and Bitino only sign for 1 season?

 If they don't extend players next year you would be absolutely right but if they extend Geno, Carlos, Kroft, Dennard.. and maybe even Eifert (who counts in the mess. I know I know he's injured but if he hadn't he would be in line for a huge contract.) The massive cap space we think they have will disappear quickly.

I'm not saying the FO made the best personel desicions. Im just saying I see what they did and WHY they did it. More than one perspective for every problem and everything is easier in hindsight.

You don't NEED to extend Atkins/Dunlap/Dennard/Kroft right now, they are ALL under contract for '18. That means if you had done this last season, you would have gotten a much better team for both '17 AND '18.

Worry about '19 FA in '19.

By worrying about '19 FA, you have doomed your team to 3 straight losing seasons. But hey, at least you won't have to make some tough choices about who to keep in '19, because sure your team will suck, but at least you can pretend you have enough money to sign everyone. Right before you let 2/3rd of them leave, overpay the other 1/3rd, and preach about Model Model.

Keeping together a bad/mediocre team for all eternity is apparently somehow better in your mind than putting together a team for 2 years that can win a SB, having to make some tough choices for 2-3 years, before making another team for 2 years that can win a SB.

Here's a hint... your/the Bengals way hasn't worked for 27 years. Stop worrying about saving for extensions 2-3 years later. Worry about WINNING, because if that's not your #1 priority, in this league, then it'll never happen.

Then again, maybe your/their way will pay off. 28th time's the charm, I have (never) heard. Up there with (never used) sayings like 16th time's a charm for Lewis.

[grampahol]

C'mon..51st time is the charm..  at least next year we won't have to suffer a whole season of Hobson's what if posts. We're celebrating our 51st season doesn't exactly have the same ring to it does it?

[*Synric*]

(01-02-2018, 01:19 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You don't NEED to extend Atkins/Dunlap/Dennard/Kroft right now, they are ALL under contract for '18. That means if you had done this last season, you would have gotten a much better team for both '17 AND '18.

Worry about '19 FA in '19.

By worrying about '19 FA, you have doomed your team to 3 straight losing seasons. But hey, at least you won't have to make some tough choices about who to keep in '19, because sure your team will suck, but at least you can pretend you have enough money to sign everyone. Right before you let 2/3rd of them leave, overpay the other 1/3rd, and preach about Model Model.

Keeping together a bad/mediocre team for all eternity is apparently somehow better in your mind than putting together a team for 2 years that can win a SB, having to make some tough choices for 2-3 years, before making another team for 2 years that can win a SB.

Here's a hint... your/the Bengals way hasn't worked for 27 years. Stop worrying about saving for extensions 2-3 years later. Worry about WINNING, because if that's not your #1 priority, in this league, then it'll never happen.

Then again, maybe your/their way will pay off. 28th time's the charm, I have (never) heard. Up there with (never used) sayings like 16th time's a charm for Lewis.

The issue with your view is you think signing these guys would guarantee a championship in a very limited number of years when it won't but it definitely will put them in a hell of alot tighter spot when the star players they do have on the roster come up in FA.

Me I think right now to be a playoff caliber team they need an Center and Left tackle.

Edit: Not saying I wouldn't like to see a big time free agent speckled in every so often. ( I wanted Brandon Marshall back in 2012 badly). I'd like to see them make a run at Jimmy Graham this year. But I understand they have to compete for those Free Agents too and Cincy will always lose that battle because of one fact....Jersey Sales.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-01-2018, 09:03 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Redmond was practice squad most of last year.. his technique was raw.. he improved so i guess he have to actually credit the coaches also if i player improves...  did you miss the preseason.. Hopkins out played the other guards.. he started out ok,, but then got hurt and was in and out of lineup... 

Did I miss the preseason?  Let's see.  No.  I haven't missed a game...ever.  I am curious how Hopkins out played the other guards when he was injured.  Was it in the first preseason game?  How many snaps?  I sure as hell didn't see it that way and neither did PFF, should you claim some dumb bias.

The folks I know at the Bengals rave about the strength that Redmond has added since joining.  Did you happen to see when he lifted Kroft (6'6", 260 lbs) over his head like in Dirty Dancing after Kroft scored?  Redmond has massive size and strength.  He helped the run game to its highest YPC against a well-respected defense.  And he rode the bench all year despite Hopkins sucking.  Ditto Westerman and Bodine.  

That is reason #1 I want Marv gone.  Sticks with guys who suck and never gives them competition.  There are exceptions, but as people look at this 7-9 record and wish they could have made just a few more plays and got in to the playoffs, remember that Marv stuck with Jeremy Hill early in the season as well.  Trotted out Lafell when there are better options on the team.  Willis looked like a beast yesterday.  Earlier in the season he blocked a punt and was promptly benched and we had to watch the human tree struggle at RDE again.  I just don't understand what the hell he was thinking sometimes and I am glad I won't have to wonder about it any more.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-02-2018, 01:50 AM)Synric Wrote: The issue with your view is you think signing these guys would guarantee a championship in a very limited number of years when it won't but it definitely will put them in a hell of alot tighter spot when the star players they do have on the roster come up in FA.

Me I think right now to be a playoff caliber team they need an Center and Left tackle.

Edit: Not saying I wouldn't like to see a big time free agent speckled in every so often. ( I wanted Brandon Marshall back in 2012 badly). I'd like to see them make a run at Jimmy Graham this year. But I understand they have to compete for those Free Agents too and Cincy will always lose that battle because of one fact....Jersey Sales.

Where did I ever say it would guarantee a championship? I said it would make it so they CAN win one, not that they would.

Continuing to do things as they have on the other hand sure as hell guarantees that they never will.


Over the last two offseasons, the Bengals have let Whitworth, M Jones, Zeitler, and Nelson walk in FA, and have brought in LaFell, Dansby, and Minter. That is not how you build a roster that will do much of anything.

You and the Bengals are so busy making excuses of having to extend players 3 years from now, that you've wasted all your best players prime years. Green and Atkins will both turn 30 before the season starts. What do the Bengals have to show for their careers so far? A handful of pathetic looking first round playoff losses.

By never making a move, you're just planning and saving for a time that will NEVER come. There will always be someone else who *MAY* need an extension 2-3 years from now. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make as good of a roster as possible with all your resources.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Steelers entered the 2017 offseason with less cap space than the Bengals, and managed to franchise tagged Bell to make him the highest paid RB by like 50% more than 2nd place, extended Brown to make him the highest paid WR in the NFL, signed their LT, signed Joe Haden, and extended their DE. Their QB makes $5.85m/yr more than the Bengals, too.

The Bengals with more cap space, meanwhile, somehow couldn't find the money to re-sign their All-Pro LT.


The Steelers went 13-3, got the #2 seed, and are eyeing a SB.
The Bengals went 7-9, were abhorrent to watch, and are eyeing at bringing their 0 postseason win HC back for a 16th season.

It's amazing how every team in the NFL works with the same cap space, and everyone besides the Bengals somehow manage to get by without saving for extensions 3 years in advance, and saving $15m in cap space for an injury pool/rookies.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

What is the point of keeping the stars and putting NOTHING around them to give them an actual chance at winning something? If you're not going to use your resources to field the best team you can every year, quit and sell your team to someone who will.

[ah5]

(01-01-2018, 09:45 PM)Steve Wrote: i see a 4 way toss up...
think it'll be one of these 4 guys...

#1 OG Nelson
#2 S    Derwin James
#3 OT McGlinchey
#4 one of the DT's.....there's 3 of them grouped in this 10-15 area....

I doubt we'd pick the LB out of Georgia, Roqun Smith...at #12....

i'd pick Nelson if it was my choice.....
but at #12 he { maybe even James} may be off the board already...
so it would probably be the OT.....i'd think...if it is i'd be ok w/ it....

If Derwin James is on the board at 12 it would be hard not to take him.  That being said then you have to draft oline basically 2,3,4.

[ah5]

(01-02-2018, 01:50 AM)Synric Wrote: The issue with your view is you think signing these guys would guarantee a championship in a very limited number of years when it won't but it definitely will put them in a hell of alot tighter spot when the star players they do have on the roster come up in FA.

Me I think right now to be a playoff caliber team they need an Center and Left tackle.

Edit: Not saying I wouldn't like to see a big time free agent speckled in every so often. ( I wanted Brandon Marshall back in 2012 badly). I'd like to see them make a run at Jimmy Graham this year. But I understand they have to compete for those Free Agents too and Cincy will always lose that battle because of one fact....Jersey Sales.

I think LB should get tossed on that list as well.  Assuming Burfict is suspended/hurt his 6 games next year.

[*Synric*]

(01-02-2018, 02:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Where did I ever say it would guarantee a championship? I said it would make it so they CAN win one, not that they would.

Continuing to do things as they have on the other hand sure as hell guarantees that they never will.


Over the last two offseasons, the Bengals have let Whitworth, M Jones, Zeitler, and Nelson walk in FA, and have brought in LaFell, Dansby, and Minter. That is not how you build a roster that will do much of anything.

You and the Bengals are so busy making excuses of having to extend players 3 years from now, that you've wasted all your best players prime years. Green and Atkins will both turn 30 before the season starts. What do the Bengals have to show for their careers so far? A handful of pathetic looking first round playoff losses.

By never making a move, you're just planning and saving for a time that will NEVER come. There will always be someone else who *MAY* need an extension 2-3 years from now. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make as good of a roster as possible with all your resources.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Steelers entered the 2017 offseason with less cap space than the Bengals, and managed to franchise tagged Bell to make him the highest paid RB by like 50% more than 2nd place, extended Brown to make him the highest paid WR in the NFL, signed their LT, signed Joe Haden, and extended their DE. Their QB makes $5.85m/yr more than the Bengals, too.

The Bengals with more cap space, meanwhile, somehow couldn't find the money to re-sign their All-Pro LT.


The Steelers went 13-3, got the #2 seed, and are eyeing a SB.
The Bengals went 7-9, were abhorrent to watch, and are eyeing at bringing their 0 postseason win HC back for a 16th season.

It's amazing how every team in the NFL works with the same cap space, and everyone besides the Bengals somehow manage to get by without saving for extensions 3 years in advance, and saving $15m in cap space for an injury pool/rookies.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

What is the point of keeping the stars and putting NOTHING around them to give them an actual chance at winning something? If you're not going to use your resources to field the best team you can every year, quit and sell your team to someone who will.

Bengals are less than league average with available salary cap. 

Also it's funny you bring up the Steelers who went all or nothing this season. They had better win a superbowl because they are flat out screwed this offseason. Bell is gone there is no chance at all to resign him. They will have to either trade, cut, or force pay cuts just to sign their draft picks.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-02-2018, 07:31 AM)Synric Wrote: Bengals are less than league average with available salary cap. 

Also it's funny you bring up the Steelers who went all or nothing this season. They had better win a superbowl because they are flat out screwed this offseason. Bell is gone there is no chance at all to resign him. They will have to either trade, cut, or force pay cuts just to sign their draft picks.

Like we shoulda done in 2015?

As to the OP.....I'd still get as many olinemen as I could, including tackles. Boling had a nice game out there, and may very well make the transition, or it could just be a part of the Ye Olde Dead Cat Bounce.....

[*ochocincos*]

(01-02-2018, 12:55 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Left tackle is still a glaring need.  Clint Boling is better than Cedric Ogbuehi but that’s a low bar to climb over.

My thoughts exactly.

Boling was adequate in the two games he played and improvement over Ogbuehi, but that doesn't mean he should be moved to LT for 2018.
The Bengals should still draft an OT, preferably early. I still like McGlinchey. While he gave up some pressures (mostly to future NFL first-rounders), he was dominant in the run game and was also an elite RT before switching to LT the past two years at ND.
And I'd still look to re-sign Andre Smith because even though he wasn't good this year, he's still better than Ogbuehi and Fisher's health is still in question. No way do I want to see Ogbuehi out there at OT ever again unless it's an absolute necessity. Make his ass actually earn playing time now.
Also, after the past two games, I don't see how there isn't any hope that the guard positions aren't in good hands between Boling, Westerman, and Redmond. I don't view OG as a need now until probably the fourth round unless the Bengals really want to get a guy like Nelson.
Center and OT are still higher priorities to me.

And by drafting a guy like McGlinchey, it could still allow Boling to try his hand at LT and also provide insurance in case Boling proves he's only a spot starter in case of emergency.
If Boling can prove to be a quality LT in the NFL, McGlinchey and Boling as the book ends with Redmond and Westerman next to them and a new drafted C in the middle.
If not, McGlinchey and Smith as the book ends (at least in the short term) with Boling and Redmond/Westerman at Guard and either a drafted pick or maybe even a shift of position for the other out of Westerman/Redmond at C.

Either way, that still seems like a pretty big improvement over what the Bengals rolled out with in 2017.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-02-2018, 10:45 AM)ochocincos Wrote: My thoughts exactly.

Boling was adequate in the two games he played and improvement over Ogbuehi, but that doesn't mean he should be moved to LT for 2018.
The Bengals should still draft an OT, preferably early. I still like McGlinchey. While he gave up some pressures (mostly to future NFL first-rounders), he was dominant in the run game and was also an elite RT before switching to LT the past two years at ND.
And I'd still look to re-sign Andre Smith because even though he wasn't good this year, he's still better than Ogbuehi and Fisher's health is still in question. No way do I want to see Ogbuehi out there at OT ever again unless it's an absolute necessity. Make his ass actually earn playing time now.
Also, after the past two games, I don't see how there isn't any hope that the guard positions aren't in good hands between Boling, Westerman, and Redmond. I don't view OG as a need now until probably the fourth round unless the Bengals really want to get a guy like Nelson.
Center and OT are still higher priorities to me.

And by drafting a guy like McGlinchey, it could still allow Boling to try his hand at LT and also provide insurance in case Boling proves he's only a spot starter in case of emergency.
If Boling can prove to be a quality LT in the NFL, McGlinchey and Boling as the book ends with Redmond and Westerman next to them and a new drafted C in the middle.
If not, McGlinchey and Smith as the book ends (at least in the short term) with Boling and Redmond/Westerman at Guard and either a drafted pick or maybe even a shift of position for the other out of Westerman/Redmond at C.

Either way, that still seems like a pretty big improvement over what the Bengals rolled out with in 2017.

Boling is a gamer. He will look solid at literally any spot you put him in. 
He's like Whitworth and it's why the Bengals often value "versatility" on the OL so much, even to a fault. 

That said, there are enough reps to see why he's not a long term answer at LT. 
He still struggled with edge pressure at times. 

Westerman should be the RG.
Hopkins should be in the mix for RT, or in the Collins super sub role.
Redmond is a super sub IOL. 

Hopkins is very similar in style to Boling and it's unfortunate he's had to put up with so many injuries, I'm a huge fan but I wonder if he'll ever get his power back. He was getting better as the year went on but still struggled with his base. That wasn't an issue for him before. 

It's hard to say exactly what we will do until we know who the coaches are. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-01-2018, 03:41 AM)Jhowdy54 Wrote: Think we found ourselves a future stud LT in Clint Boling.  Last week he had his struggles but this week was the 2nd highest ranked tackle in the NFL.  Think no doubt he goes into 2018 as the starting LT.  Just don't understand what took so long to make the transition with all the struggles from Ogbuie and Fisher.

It is pretty cool that Boling is this versatile, i think now he can play every O-line position. He HAS played Center in the Offseason
before i believe. But i still would be all for McGlinchey, was watching him yesterday and was very impressed. Him or the other ND
O-lineman Nelson have to be our first thoughts with our first pick.

Billy Price next.

Lets just at the very least move on from PA. I know we can do better.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-02-2018, 03:41 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Boling is a gamer. He will look solid at literally any spot you put him in. 
He's like Whitworth and it's why the Bengals often value "versatility" on the OL so much, even to a fault. 

That said, there are enough reps to see why he's not a long term answer at LT. 
He still struggled with edge pressure at times. 

Westerman should be the RG.
Hopkins should be in the mix for RT, or in the Collins super sub role.
Redmond is a super sub IOL. 

Hopkins is very similar in style to Boling and it's unfortunate he's had to put up with so many injuries, I'm a huge fan but I wonder if he'll ever get his power back. He was getting better as the year went on but still struggled with his base. That wasn't an issue for him before. 

It's hard to say exactly what we will do until we know who the coaches are. 

Yea I view Hopkins to be a worse version of Boling primarily due to Hopkins being more stiff. As you mentioned, he used to be really powerful, but I didn't notice that dominant power from him (yet). Also as you mentioned, he's been ouchie off and on since becoming a Bengal, so maybe that has something to do with it. I always did think Hopkins was best suited for a swing depth role. Like a backup utility player.

I also like Westerman over Redmond for G. I thought Westerman should have been the starting RG all along, not Hopkins or even Redmond.
Would Redmond be a viable C? I know he was considered weak coming out of college but he looks to have improved that area now. He's also intelligent.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-02-2018, 04:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is pretty cool that Boling is this versatile, i think now he can play every O-line position. He HAS played Center in the Offseason
before i believe. But i still would be all for McGlinchey, was watching him yesterday and was very impressed. Him or the other ND
O-lineman Nelson have to be our first thoughts with our first pick.

Billy Price next.

Lets just at the very least move on from PA. I know we can do better.

I'm curious to know whose idea it was to finally give Redmond and Westerman a chance to play and also change up the blocking scheme the last month of the season.
If it was PA, I'm glad he finally saw the error in his ways.
If it wasn't PA, who was it?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-02-2018, 05:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yea I view Hopkins to be a worse version of Boling primarily due to Hopkins being more stiff. As you mentioned, he used to be really powerful, but I didn't notice that dominant power from him (yet). Also as you mentioned, he's been ouchie off and on since becoming a Bengal, so maybe that has something to do with it. I always did think Hopkins was best suited for a swing depth role. Like a backup utility player.

I also like Westerman over Redmond for G. I thought Westerman should have been the starting RG all along, not Hopkins or even Redmond.
Would Redmond be a viable C? I know he was considered weak coming out of college but he looks to have improved that area now. He's also intelligent.

From the limited reps, I don't like Redmond as a long term starter. 
He can't move well enough. You saw it in the last game when he came in, things slowed down some. 
He's good in a straight line but when they were making him move, he had 2 hold calls in a hurry. 

He'd be the best backup IOL we've had in years though. He has at least a transferable NFL level skill that others don't. 

Westerman looks like he's still catching up to NFL speed rather than physically limited. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-02-2018, 05:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm curious to know whose idea it was to finally give Redmond and Westerman a chance to play and also change up the blocking scheme the last month of the season.
If it was PA, I'm glad he finally saw the error in his ways.
If it wasn't PA, who was it?

It is a great question, either way it took way too long.

[Andy2AJ]

Well since we are terrible at drafting studs in the first round, we need to take a center with our 4th pick and an ot with our 5th round pick. Tell CO it's been real and move on. Hopefully we can get something still out of fisher he's been ok atleast he's not as bad as 70