The QB position

[*PhilHos*]

(05-23-2018, 05:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks are too funny......."I use stats"

In his career Andy Dalton has finished top dozen in passing once

His career average ranking is 15.4 out of 32

Those factual 3 Pro Bowls. Pretty sure he has never been selected, He has been named a replacement every time and has never had a passer rating higher than 15 in any year he was named.

"I use stats...........GTFO"

If you want to use those stats to back up your claim, go ahead. It's far better than sayinig he's average because the "experts" say he is.

Shake, myself, and many others have posted other stats to back up OUR claims. Yet, the response is usually we're wrong because "experts".

[Luvnit2]

I know everyone want to use facts. I just had somone tweet quoting some PFF stats: I can't confirm as I do not have PFF so hopefully someone else can.

Dalton showed up on 2 accuracy reports, one 2nd and one 3rd best for hitting an open receiver. This was in spite of him only having the 16th best open receivers to throw the ball.

I am no technology guy, but looks like came from @PFF_Steve and read; bit.ly/2lfyaUK

[*PhilHos*]

(05-23-2018, 11:50 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Yet I'm the Dalton hater? 

(05-24-2018, 01:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Somehow, someway your consider Andy Dalton an average starting NFL QB you are a "hater".

Out of curiosity, who has actually called either of you a hater in this thread?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2018, 09:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Going into 2016 the experts ranked us #7 and we finished 24th and going into 2017 the experts had us ranked at #22 and we finished 21st.  Some skepticism is warranted, particularly since I don't blame anyone for assuming the Bengals are trying to lose by way of keeping Marvin Lewis forever.

Still, these "experts" ought to look at the other coaching changes we made and adding Glenn and Price to replace
our biggest weaknesses. To ignore this is just lazy and shows me once again to never trust the experts, especially
about Dalton who is literally the red headed step child of the NFL. His numbers show he is a much better QB than
what the experts rank him.

Alex Van Pelt should be in this conversation, i am excited to see what he can do with our QB position.

He has been pretty impressive in the past working with QB's. Rodgers was extremely talented already when he
got to work with him but Rodgers is pizzed he left and what is more impressive about Van Pelt is how he worked
with mediocre QB's when they had their best seasons in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(05-23-2018, 11:50 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I have continuously said that Dalton is average which puts him in that 14-18 category of starting QBs. 

Actually you have claimed he is below average.

(05-06-2018, 06:12 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote:  check out his QBR rating the last couple years relative to the rest of the league and you will come to the conclusion that he's been very average, perhaps even below average. 

(05-09-2018, 03:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: So essentially he has been average to below average 4 out of 5 seasons.  Yes he played great in 2015 but according to "STATISTICS" he's been average to below average the other 4 years.

(05-20-2018, 04:59 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote:  i think we've proven via this thread that most consider Dalton an average to below average QB.

 

[*bfine32*]

(05-24-2018, 11:55 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Out of curiosity, who has actually called either of you a hater in this thread?

I think some dude named PhilHos did it first in post 122. 

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2018, 11:55 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Out of curiosity, who has actually called either of you a hater in this thread?

I don't know if I have said it.

But I have tried to imply it.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-24-2018, 11:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think some dude named PhilHos did it first in post 122. 

I did, because you claimed McCarron was the reason we almost won a playoff game. 

Allow me to clarify my question then. What I was asking (and I apologize for apparently not being clear enoough) was "who called you a hater because you called Dalton average? I know you and CB have been called Dalton haters before, it was not my intention of disputing that notion. But, I cannot recall anyone calling you a hater for claiming Dalton to be an average QB. So, please, if I missed a post of someone calling you or CB a hater for claiming Dalton to be average, please show me where. Thanks.

[CornerBlitz]

I'm not sure where this discussion is headed.....now we're just arguing whether people have called me a hater. I think it is pretty clear that people have called me a hater numerous times as I've called other fanboys.

In any case, I'll hopefully try and put a cap on this discussion.

1. Going back to the original post I'd still been happier if we had drafted a QB. That doesn't mean that I want Dalton replaced this season.

2. I think Dalton is an average QB and it is clear that nearly everyone outside of this message forum agree with me.

3. Statistics can always be manipulated to make an argument. That goes both ways.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-25-2018, 10:35 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: 1. Going back to the original post I'd still been happier if we had drafted a QB.  That doesn't mean that I want Dalton replaced this season.

2. I think Dalton is an average QB and it is clear that nearly everyone outside of this message forum agree with me.

3. Statistics can always be manipulated to make an argument. That goes both ways.

1. I wouldn't have been opposed to drafting a QB as long as it wasn't a reach. As far as I can tell, at no point was there a QB remotely available to us that would have been worth whatever it took to get (be it drafting at our position or trading up).

2. Opinions. All of them, but you're entitled to yours as I am to mine so ... word.

3. Yes, stats can be maniuplated to a degree. Stats can NOT be manipulated to make ANY argument. You can not use stats, for example, to backup a claim that Dalton is the best QB in the league nor can you use stats to backup a claim that Dalton is the worst QB in the league. That's why when you see someone make an argument and back it up with multiple stats, that's a compelling argument that one should take a good look at. You don't have to agree necessarily, but it's not an argument you can just dismiss just because stats can be manipulated to a degree.

[Luvnit2]

(05-25-2018, 11:45 AM)PhilHos Wrote: 1. I wouldn't have been opposed to drafting a QB as long as it wasn't a reach. As far as I can tell, at no point was there a QB remotely available to us that would have been worth whatever it took to get (be it drafting at our position or trading up).

2. Opinions. All of them, but you're entitled to yours as I am to mine so ... word.

3. Yes, stats can be maniuplated to a degree. Stats can NOT be manipulated to make ANY argument. You can not use stats, for example, to backup a claim that Dalton is the best QB in the league nor can you use stats to backup a claim that Dalton is the worst QB in the league. That's why when you see someone make an argument and back it up with multiple stats, that's a compelling argument that one should take a good look at. You don't have to agree necessarily, but it's not an argument you can just dismiss just because stats can be manipulated to a degree.

I see some use facts and others just cite opinions arguing their stats (facts) are not heard thus they end up being correct as it comes across as they have no facts (stats) and just want to voice a personal opinion.

It has been argued for years AD is either worse than average, average or above average. I don't see too many say he is horrible or is a future hall of fame QB.

I say he is above average which is my opinion based on:
1. Watching Him play
2. Taking into account surrounding parts of OL and skill players as well as injuries of those players and AD's durability to stay on the field.
3. Stats like 2nd or 3rd most accurate QB according to PFF in 2017.
4. Win percent as a QB in regular season
5. His QB ratings compared to other QB;s whi h ave started at least 5 years (I don't like snap shot approach so the new guys have to put their time in in my opinion)

Truth be told, not that much separation from average to above average and thus why we get into these heated debates

[Shake n Blake]

It's funny, if stats suit someone's narrative, they have no qualms about citing them.

But if the stats go against their narrative, then it's "watch the game" or "stats can be manipulated", etc.''

In truth, stats are the only facts we can look at. The rest is opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

We can go back and forth on this forever, but all i know is i don't want to be on the Andy Dalton sucks wagon
right before he just might get a good Offensive Line. Personally think he is going to have a banner year barring
injuries and Corner Blitz and Bfine will look a bit foolish looking back at this thread.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-25-2018, 01:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We can go back and forth on this forever, but all i know is i don't want to be on the Andy Dalton sucks wagon
right before he just might get a good Offensive Line. Personally think he is going to have a banner year barring
injuries and Corner Blitz and Bfine will look a bit foolish looking back at this thread.

If he has a good or great year, the argument will then morph back into "Dalton's teammates make him, not vice versa".

Silly you for thinking Dalton could ever win. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-25-2018, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If he has a good or great year, the argument will then morph back into "Dalton's teammates make him, not vice versa".

Silly you for thinking Dalton could ever win. 

True true.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-25-2018, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If he has a good or great year, the argument will then morph back into "Dalton's teammates make him, not vice versa".

Silly you for thinking Dalton could ever win. 

I think if Dalton has a career year this year, the credit will go to the coaching staff - mainly Lazor, Pollack, and Van Pelt.

[CornerBlitz]

Don't any if you find it a even a little strange that nobody else agrees with you outside of Bengal Land? Do you really think everyone is just a Dalton hater? I've heard the "groupthink" theory and I suppose that holds some merit but almost everyone i talk to in real life and every expert has Dalton pegged where i have him.

Their is pretty solid consensus on the type of QB he is except for some fans of his.

[Brownshoe]

(05-25-2018, 05:51 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Don't any if you find it a even a little strange that nobody else agrees with you outside of Bengal Land?  Do you really think everyone is just a Dalton hater? I've heard the "groupthink" theory and I suppose that holds some merit but almost everyone i talk to in real life and every expert has Dalton pegged where i have him.

Their is pretty solid consensus on the type of QB he is except for some fans of his.

You're actually using two logical fallacies to make your argument.

1. Appeal to authority - saying because experts think something means it's true

and

2. Bandwagon fallacy - because everyone you know thinks one way it's true

Arguments hold a lot more weight when you don't have to resort to fallacies to make your point. It would be best to point out stats and facts that back your opinion.

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 05:51 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Don't any if you find it a even a little strange that nobody else agrees with you outside of Bengal Land?  Do you really think everyone is just a Dalton hater? I've heard the "groupthink" theory and I suppose that holds some merit but almost everyone i talk to in real life and every expert has Dalton pegged where i have him.

Their is pretty solid consensus on the type of QB he is except for some fans of his.

Don't you find it strange that the "experts" you are relying on said Derek Carr was the #4 QB in the league and Jarod Goff is #30?



BTW you said he was "below average".  That is the main problem I have with your argument.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 01:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We can go back and forth on this forever, but all i know is i don't want to be on the Andy Dalton sucks wagon
right before he just might get a good Offensive Line. Personally think he is going to have a banner year barring
injuries and Corner Blitz and Bfine will look a bit foolish looking back at this thread.

Not sure how bfine will look foolish as all he has done is taken a realistic look at Andy's performance to date. Foolish is trying to use 3 Pro Bowls (none of which he was selected for) as some sort of qualifier to make a year in which he finished 25th in passer rating look like a good year. 

Did the the Andy's an elite QB guys look foolish last year? bfine pegged him around 17th and he finished 18th. Who knows maybe Van Pelt can do something with him, but if I'm going to Vegas and laying money down tonight about how Andy will rate against the rest of the NFL QBs in 2018. I'm going middle 1/3.