We Might Have Missed BIG Time (2017 Draft)

[thillan]

(10-04-2018, 11:37 AM)kevin Wrote: That was my thought. Bengals are 3-1 and in First Place, and the OP is complaining about Dalton.  I would like to point out to the so called fans that keep saying Browns are better, that Browns lost again last week. 2 wins in 3 seasons, Oh Boy.  Steelers lost also and in last place with Browns. If it sounds like I'm rubbing it in on Browns and Steelers fans, I am.  Bengals 3-1 and in FIRST PLACE. 

Not complaining about Dalton. Your reading it through your own lenses, instead of actually seeing perspective. I've made my thoughts known about Andy, happy to have him.

[Whatever]

(10-04-2018, 10:39 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: KC played that situation perfectly. They had a 'good' QB in Smith (much like Bengals Dalton) but they believed Smith would not win them a SB. So they drafted a possible replacement, if he worked out they could trade or let go Smith. If he did not work out you have Smith.

The key factor in their thinking was they knew Smith was not likely good enough to win a SB. You can say they took a risk by moving to Mahomes this this year but they did it to get a SB, not to be 'in the mix'.

This is the difference between KC and us. Brown is happy to be competitive, but he wont take the risks to get to the top.

I don't think they necessarily knew Smith couldn't win a SB.  You have to remember that veteran QB's get huge money and that hamstrings your ability to build a team around them.  A QB on a rookie deal gives you a lot more cap flexibility.  

It's impossible to win a SB in today's day and age without a quality QB.  At the same time, there are a lot of supposed "elite" QB's who have massive ups and downs and miss the playoffs on a regular basis.  Really, Brady and Rodgers are the only guys in the league that can consistently carry their team to the postseason year after year.  What you don't want is a situation like Atlanta or Baltimore, where you have a good QB making ridiculous money, but he isn't good enough to carry you to the postseason year after year.  You can win a SB with a good, but not elite, QB as long as you aren't overpaying them.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2018, 12:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: I don't think they necessarily knew Smith couldn't win a SB.  You have to remember that veteran QB's get huge money and that hamstrings your ability to build a team around them.  A QB on a rookie deal gives you a lot more cap flexibility.  

It's impossible to win a SB in today's day and age without a quality QB.  At the same time, there are a lot of supposed "elite" QB's who have massive ups and downs and miss the playoffs on a regular basis.  Really, Brady and Rodgers are the only guys in the league that can consistently carry their team to the postseason year after year.  What you don't want is a situation like Atlanta or Baltimore, where you have a good QB making ridiculous money, but he isn't good enough to carry you to the postseason year after year.  You can win a SB with a good, but not elite, QB as long as you aren't overpaying them.

Not to mention Alex Smith is a bit older (34) than Dalton. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-04-2018, 08:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not to mention Alex Smith is a bit older (34) than Dalton. 

QBs will probably start playing into their mid 40s at this rate. Easy to do when you’re not allowed to hit them.

I’m obviously exaggerating, but only a little...

[BengalChris]

(10-02-2018, 11:41 AM)thillan Wrote: Just wanted to start a discussion about this, and wanted to start off with this:

I LIKE John Ross. His speed is incredible, and he honestly is already one of my favorite Bengals. It's fun to have electric players like him.

I LIKE Andy Dalton. I have never thought of him as a top 5 QB, but I do think he's underrated.. but I don't think he's a world beater either.

I am of the mindset that getting a star QB allows your team to have a MUCH larger SB window. Teams like GB, NE, PHI, NO, etc. always have a chance to at least contend, because the QB is so special.

Now of course, you need to have SOME talent around them. Otherwise you end up with a situation like Seattle. If they just had a decent line, things improve a lot for them.

Which leads me to this: we have a talented team, but many of us worry we have a ceiling that does not call for the SB. I understand, and I also understand "Any Given Sunday." BUT.. we picked a WR with some questions.. and missed out on Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes.

I really think we missed. And both of these guys are in our conference. I get that we aren't in a bad QB situation by any means, but I do think you can change from good to great. And I think we missed our chance.

What are your guys thoughts on this? I really think that having either Watson or Mahomes on our squad, with the talent we have, opens up a bigger window for us. And the future would be REALLY bright.

PS: I know some will say Watson isn't playing that great.. I'd argue against it. His O-line is atrocious, and he's still showing playmaking ability to keep these guys in games. Overall, I think he has much more potential than Andy has ever had, but again, Andy is not a bad QB by any means.

PPS: It's officlal. Mahomes has the second or third strongest arm I have ever seen. And that's a HUGE weapon, every single game.

I'm not a big Ross fan, although I might become one if he figures out the game.

But ..... a QB would not have been my pick in 2017 instead of Ross. I had some defensive players in mind that would have helped us and we could have traded down easily and acquired some additional picks to help rebuild the OL.

In the end, however, we are stuck with Ross and need to hope he can become a better player and stay on the field.

[bengalhoel]

(10-02-2018, 11:41 AM)thillan Wrote: Just wanted to start a discussion about this, and wanted to start off with this:

I LIKE John Ross. His speed is incredible, and he honestly is already one of my favorite Bengals. It's fun to have electric players like him.

I LIKE Andy Dalton. I have never thought of him as a top 5 QB, but I do think he's underrated.. but I don't think he's a world beater either.

I am of the mindset that getting a star QB allows your team to have a MUCH larger SB window. Teams like GB, NE, PHI, NO, etc. always have a chance to at least contend, because the QB is so special.

Now of course, you need to have SOME talent around them. Otherwise you end up with a situation like Seattle. If they just had a decent line, things improve a lot for them.

Which leads me to this: we have a talented team, but many of us worry we have a ceiling that does not call for the SB. I understand, and I also understand "Any Given Sunday." BUT.. we picked a WR with some questions.. and missed out on Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes.


Am I the only one who thinks that Watson is overrated? What has he done to prove he is better than Andy Dalton?
I really think we missed. And both of these guys are in our conference. I get that we aren't in a bad QB situation by any means, but I do think you can change from good to great. And I think we missed our chance.

What are your guys thoughts on this? I really think that having either Watson or Mahomes on our squad, with the talent we have, opens up a bigger window for us. And the future would be REALLY bright.

PS: I know some will say Watson isn't playing that great.. I'd argue against it. His O-line is atrocious, and he's still showing playmaking ability to keep these guys in games. Overall, I think he has much more potential than Andy has ever had, but again, Andy is not a bad QB by any means.

PPS: It's officlal. Mahomes has the second or third strongest arm I have ever seen. And that's a HUGE weapon, every single game.

[coachmcneil71]

(10-02-2018, 11:50 AM)impactplaya Wrote: rep him please

Definitely!!

[coachmcneil71]

(10-02-2018, 11:59 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Funny how fans want to make changes when the team is playing great..... It just boggles my mind...

That's not his point in the least. Gotta get better every year in the draft, and fortunately we have been doing that. That said, gotta keep looking towards the future. Ross is borderline bust material,cat the moment. 

We have a QB on his big money contract. He's playing well right now, but the talent to money ratio is a huge factor for franchise's that are trying to move forward and stay relevant.

[sandwedge]

(10-05-2018, 01:27 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: That's not his point in the least. Gotta get better every year in the draft, and fortunately we have been doing that. That said, gotta keep looking towards the future. Ross is borderline bust material,cat the moment. 

We have a QB on his big money contract. He's playing well right now, but the talent to money ratio is a huge factor for franchise's that are trying to move forward and stay relevant.

I'm pretty sure Dalton's contract is team friendly? Drafting a QB at #9 last year would have been a mistake. Our needs elsewhere far outweigh grabbing a QB for the future. Wr was a position of need along with LB, o-line. There where no tackles, teams thought worthy of around that spot to take. If Ross had came in and played lights out, this whole hindsight stuff would be moot. Maybe 2 years from now we can start looking towards the future, but not last season.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2018, 10:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: QBs will probably start playing into their mid 40s at this rate. Easy to do when you’re not allowed to hit them.

I’m obviously exaggerating, but only a little...

Well I've always said QB's age better than any position outside of maybe kicker, but some teams do start factoring in age around 34 or so. Especially if the guy isn't quite getting it done. I'd say we might start looking to replace Dalton in a few years if he can't get over the playoff hump...even though I think he could easily be effective to 38-40 years old.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-05-2018, 01:27 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: That's not his point in the least. Gotta get better every year in the draft, and fortunately we have been doing that. That said, gotta keep looking towards the future. Ross is borderline bust material,cat the moment. 

We have a QB on his big money contract. He's playing well right now, but the talent to money ratio is a huge factor for franchise's that are trying to move forward and stay relevant.

Yeah I think some people are missing OP's point. I get it and respect that take, I just disagree.

1. Andy Dalton > Alex Smith.
2. Dalton is younger than Smith.
3. Dalton is cheaper than Smith (at least at the time)
4. Taking a QB is a shot in the dark. For every guy that looks like Mahomes, there 5 guys that look like Darnold, Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. Even if you hit on a QB, the likelihood that he's better than Dalton (who is very good) is still slim. If you missed, you probably damaged your relationship with Dalton.

I'd be okay with looking for a replacement a little further down the line, and only if Dalton can't progress through the playoffs. Even then, I think we'd be biting our nose to spite our face. Marvin has been the real problem there. 

[coachmcneil71]

(10-05-2018, 03:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah I think some people are missing OP's point. I get it and respect that take, I just disagree.

1. Andy Dalton > Alex Smith.
2. Dalton is younger than Smith.
3. Dalton is cheaper than Smith (at least at the time)
4. Taking a QB is a shot in the dark. For every guy that looks like Mahomes, there 5 guys that look like Darnold, Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. Even if you hit on a QB, the likelihood that he's better than Dalton (who is very good) is still slim. If you missed, you probably damaged your relationship with Dalton.

I'd be okay with looking for a replacement a little further down the line, and only if Dalton can't progress through the playoffs. Even then, I think we'd be biting our nose to spite our face. Marvin has been the real problem there. 

Agree Shake, as you mentioned, just helping point out his angle. It's slightly askew, but has some merit. Andy is playing very well! Couldn't be more happy with his progress. Ans, I'm actually one of the guys that likes Driskell.
Just be nice to find a sweet gem for Andy to groom for a couple of seasons.

[Brownshoe]

I wanted OJ Howard at #9. I thought he would be a good Eifert replacement and was a good blocker so he could help with the OL too. I havent really been keeping up with him, but his stats are meh. Good in the red zone, but not too many yards. He is on the Cards though.

[JWW1971]

I think we are lucky to have Dalton, he isn't an elite QB but he is a very good one especially behind a good O-Line.
My only concern is if he gets injured, I said it at the start of the season and I still believe that none of the back ups are good enough if Dalton goes down.
Also with the way the rules are changing to protect the QB, they will play well into there 40's but I think we need to draft a good prospect within the next 2 years

[whodey4life84]

Mahomes will have to play the whole year like this. Week 10 that nonsense will stop working for the Chiefs and they will collapse like always. Just like every year it's the Patriots are done yada yada yada. Mahomes looks like an Aaron Rodgers but you cant judge anyone off of just a few games.

[thillan]

(10-06-2018, 01:13 PM)whodey4life84 Wrote: Mahomes will have to play the whole year like this. Week 10 that nonsense will stop working for the Chiefs and they will collapse like always. Just like every year it's the Patriots are done yada yada yada. Mahomes looks like an Aaron Rodgers but you cant judge anyone off of just a few games.

I'm not going to defend the idea of the original post anymore, just cause I understand the side that says it's pointless. I just thought it could hurt to watch for a while.

But some people keep saying "wait until you get tape on Mahomes, he won't be as effective." To comments that are similar to that, what exactly are you game planning for? His strongest asset is his arm strength. You CANT stop that.. it doesn't matter what your game plan is. Rodgers is a tough out every single game for many reasons, his arm talent being one of the biggest factors.

Your game plan won't stop Mahomes from throwing bullets into extremely tight windows that only him and Rodgers could make. So yes, you can judge Mahomes off a few games, because he is going into the game every time with that same mind and talent.. nothing changes. 

I honestly think people are just scared of what he's doing, and want to accept the idea that he will slow down, or that this is just a mirage. Nope.. unless he injures that arm, he's going to be able to make those passes every week.

[thillan]

(10-06-2018, 10:55 AM)JWW1971 Wrote: I think we are lucky to have Dalton, he isn't an elite QB but he is a very good one especially behind a good O-Line.
My only concern is if he gets injured, I said it at the start of the season and I still believe that none of the back ups are good enough if Dalton goes down.
Also with the way the rules are changing to protect the QB, they will play well into there 40's but I think we need to draft a good prospect within the next 2 years

Yeah and I agree, I'm happy he came in after Carson's departure. Especially stacked with Green, that was a great base to build off of.

I never thought we had a terrible QB situation. I think we can build a championship team around him.. but our path is significantly harder.

[CornerBlitz]

The Chiefs essentially did what I've wanted the Bengals to do for a few years now. Yes it is a risk to take a QB in the first round, however the payoff if it works out is well worth it. The Chiefs knew they had a decent QB in Alex Smith but understood that in order to get over the hump and make a legitimate run at the SB, they needed an upgrade. They took the risk and drafted an uber talented QB and we can now see that it's made a huge difference for them.

This is not to say that Andy Dalton is a bum or a backup QB. Quite the contrary, he's playing very well this season in fact. This discussion is more nuanced than most people would like to admit because we have a decent QB but do we have a SB caliber QB is the ultimate question that we must ask ourselves. It's the same question the Chiefs asked themselves and ultimately the answer was No. Hard to argue against their decision at this point.

[thillan]

(10-06-2018, 02:41 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: The Chiefs essentially did what I've wanted the Bengals to do for a few years now.  Yes it is a risk to take a QB in the first round, however the payoff if it works out is well worth it.  The Chiefs knew they had a decent QB in Alex Smith but understood that in order to get over the hump and make a legitimate run at the SB, they needed an upgrade.  They took the risk and drafted an uber talented QB and we can now see that it's made a huge difference for them.

This is not to say that Andy Dalton is a bum or a backup QB. Quite the contrary, he's playing very well this season in fact.  This discussion is more nuanced than most people would like to admit because we have a decent QB but do we have a SB caliber QB is the ultimate question that we must ask ourselves. It's the same question the Chiefs asked themselves and ultimately the answer was No. Hard to argue against their decision at this point.

Yeah, but it is still very risky. Shake brought up a good point in that Alex Smith is 4 years older than Andy.. Andy is still in his prime. But yes, GM's do have to take chances like this if they see it. There will always be risk, but the payoff can be massive. I think another benefit for the Chiefs is that if they missed on Mahomes, they still had Smith, and their core offensive stars are still young. Hill, Hunt, and Kelce are all young guys who still have plenty of room to grow.

Andy has faltered in the big moments and I posted the stats on that earlier. I will say that in his defense, he hasn't gotten his opportunity since 2014. To me, he's a much different QB now. His growth this year, IMO, is the biggest jump I've seen. He seems like he's doing a great job at the chess match that is offense vs defense, and is reading the defense extremely well. Excited to see what he can do with us this year.

[Junglejuice]

I do not believe in playing the hindsight game.

As for the QB issues.... everyone wants to anoint the young QBs thats stand out as the next big thing because they are a unknown that jump onto the scene. At the end of the day I really withhold my judgements on QBs till their 4-5th year. So many rising stars get brought back to reality in their 2nd or 3rd year.