We Might Have Missed BIG Time (2017 Draft)

[Bengalbug]

(10-08-2018, 02:59 AM)Joelist Wrote: Mahomes is just the latest NFL hype train candidate. Like DeShaun Watson - I watched him tonight and it wasn't pretty. The Texans basically won on their defense having its way with the Dallas OL as corrupted by Piano Man.

The hype train is speeding up, not slowing down. 29 TD through 8.6 games is looking to challenge for single season record

[fredtoast]

Doesn't matter how well Mahomes does. Anyone can draft a great QB with the benefit of hindsight. The fact still remains that it would have been a bad move for the Bengals to use a first round pick on a QB in 2017. All college QBs are a gamble and we had a very solid QB who was not old.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 12:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doesn't matter how well Mahomes does.  Anyone can draft a great QB with the benefit of hindsight.  The fact still remains that it would have been a bad move for the Bengals to use a first round pick on a QB in 2017.  All college QBs are a gamble and we had a very solid QB who was not old.

Correct on the hindsight, but we *could* have drafted a QB in 2017 if the team actually felt it needed a better one to win a championship. You said the words yourself "very solid QB", not good enough to compete with the elite teams. But good enough for Mikey as we are 'in the mix' and with a little luck and star alignment....

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 01:57 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Correct on the hindsight, but we *could* have drafted a QB in 2017 if the team actually felt it needed a better one to win a championship. You said the words yourself "very solid QB", not good enough to compete with the elite teams. But good enough for Mikey as we are 'in the mix' and with a little luck and star alignment....

Dalton is plenty good enough to win a championship.  Here is a list of QBs that Dalton has beaten head-to-head when the opposing QB had a division champion team.

Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning (2014 Pro Bowl Peyton not 2015 cripple)
Andrew Luck

[Rubekahn29]

(11-04-2018, 04:59 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: The hype train is speeding up, not slowing down. 29 TD through 8.6 games is looking to challenge for single season record

I agree Mahomes is rediculous, but I’m Cincy, he would not be putting up these numbers. The weapons are not nearly as good outside AJ, and his dear old Head Coach would provide little impact to him. You can’t deny that Andy Reid has been a huge factor in his success as he gets the most out of his QBs.

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 02:29 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I agree Mahomes is rediculous, but I’m Cincy, he would not be putting up these numbers. The weapons are not nearly as good outside AJ, and his dear old Head Coach would provide little impact to him. You can’t deny that Andy Reid has been a huge factor in his success as he gets the most out of his QBs.

Look, it does not matter if Mahomes becomes a Hall of Fame QB.  The fact is that first round QBs are a gamble and we should not have gambled with taking a QB with our first round pick in 2017.  We had our QB and we needed players to help him.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 02:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton is plenty good enough to win a championship.  Here is a list of QBs that Dalton has beaten head-to-head when the opposing QB had a division champion team.

Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning (2014 Pro Bowl Peyton not 2015 cripple)
Andrew Luck

Sorry but most of that list is players that can actually win a playoff game and even more than 1. Dalton is good enough in the regular season but like many on the team not good enough after that. 

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 03:35 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Sorry but most of that list is players that can actually win a playoff game and even more than 1. Dalton is good enough in the regular season but like many on the team not good enough after that. 

Then why do you love Mahomes so much?  Who has he beaten in the playoffs?

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 03:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do you love Mahomes so much?  Who has he beaten in the playoffs?

Dumb question Fred, he is a first year starter. And you already know his ceiling is much higher than Dalton's. Unknown where he ends up in years to come but the point remains the Chiefs knew Alex Smith would only take them so far so they made a move to better themselves. So far, it looks like genius but time will tell. This is what teams that WANT to win do. 

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 03:41 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Dumb question Fred, he is a first year starter. And you already know his ceiling is much higher than Dalton's. Unknown where he ends up in years to come but the point remains the Chiefs knew Alex Smith would only take them so far so they made a move to better themselves. So far, it looks like genius but time will tell. This is what teams that WANT to win do. 

The move was made because of Alex Smith's age.  If they just wanted to give up on Smith then the fact that they waited five years makes the Chiefs look stupid.

Look around the league and educate yourself on what teams that "want to win" really do.  You will see that they almost never use a first round pick on a QB hen they have an established QB who is only 30 years old and healthy.

Or are you claiming that the Chiefs are the only team in the league that wants to win?

[Rubekahn29]

(11-05-2018, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Look, it does not matter if Mahomes becomes a Hall of Fame QB.  The fact is that first round QBs are a gamble and we should not have gambled with taking a QB with our first round pick in 2017.  We had our QB and we needed players to help him.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you.

[*Synric*]

(11-05-2018, 03:41 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Dumb question Fred, he is a first year starter. And you already know his ceiling is much higher than Dalton's. Unknown where he ends up in years to come but the point remains the Chiefs knew Alex Smith would only take them so far so they made a move to better themselves. So far, it looks like genius but time will tell. This is what teams that WANT to win do. 

Everyone was talking about how great the Jaguars were last year. They were going to be a superbowl contender and a competitor for years...The year before that it was Dak Zeke and the Cowboys.

This year it's the Chiefs. They have a great TEAM this year....next year well we will see.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The move was made because of Alex Smith's age.  If they just wanted to give up on Smith then the fact that they waited five years makes the Chiefs look stupid.

Look around the league and educate yourself on what teams that "want to win" really do.  You will see that they almost never use a first round pick on a QB hen they have an established QB who is only 30 years old and healthy.

Or are you claiming that the Chiefs are the only team in the league that wants to win?

The Pats drafted a QB in round two when they had one of the best of all time who stated he was going to play for many years. Smith gave no indication he was cashing it in, so it was NOT age. It was ability.  Teams that want to be elite strive to get elite players (and coaches for that matter), not always successfully but they try. They don't sit on their asses with 'good enough'. 

Look at the moves Philly made in the last few years - to get to be elite and then to try and stay there. To try and win multiple SB's or 'die trying' as they say. Dalton, like many QB's in the league can't get it done. This is proven. So if the team wanted to be be better they would have made  a move to at least challenge Dalton. 

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 04:46 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: The Pats drafted a QB in round two when they had one of the best of all time who stated he was going to play for many years. Smith gave no indication he was cashing it in, so it was NOT age. It was ability.  Teams that want to be elite strive to get elite players (and coaches for that matter), not always successfully but they try. They don't sit on their asses with 'good enough'. 

EVERY player believes he is going to play a long time.  If teams listen to what their players said then they would never draft replacements.  It was about age.

But even with your examples you are saying that only TWO teams in the entire league care about wining.  Just the Pats (who actually did not use a first round pick on a QB) and the Chiefs.
 

(11-05-2018, 04:46 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote:  Dalton, like many QB's in the league can't get it done. This is proven.

No it is not proven.  I lives in Colorado in the early 90' and there were a lot of fans there who claimed it was "proven" that Elway could not win a Super Bowl.

And again, are you claiming that 90% of the league does not "want to win" because they are not constantly using first round picks on QBs because the guy they have has not won a Super Bowl?

First round QBs are a gamble.  If Mahomes had been a sure thing then he would have went #1 in th draft.  And if Andy Reid was perfect at selecting college QBs he would never have used a first round pick on Kevin Kolb.

Teams that "want to win" try to build around a solid QB like Dalton when they get one.  If you don't believe me then you are either ignoring draft history or claiming 90% of the league does not want to win.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Teams that "want to win" try to build around a solid QB like Dalton when they get one.  If you don't believe me then you are either ignoring draft history or claiming 90% of the league does not want to win.

Sure, the Pats would keep Dalton while he crapped his pants every playoff game..hilarious.

And I never said get rid of Dalton, I said draft a QB high and push him. If he responds all the power to him. If he gets out played by the younger guy so be it. But you are too busy apologizing for the average way that this team meanders itself about. If I was the owner, ML would have been long gone and if the new coach was looking for a better QB we would y and find one.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-05-2018, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not proven.  I lives in Colorado in the early 90' and there were a lot of fans there who claimed it was "proven" that Elway could not win a Super Bowl.

Remind me again what was Elway's playoff record before he won the 2 Super Bowls? 0-5 like Dalton's? 0-7 like Marvin's..Elway could at least win a playoff game (or two or three or more)before the cant win a SB talk started.

[Bengalbug]

(11-05-2018, 04:39 PM)Synric Wrote: Everyone was talking about how great the Jaguars were last year. They were going to be a superbowl contender and a competitor for years...The year before that it was Dak Zeke and the Cowboys.

This year it's the Chiefs. They have a great TEAM this year....next year well we will see.

Lol... comparing mahomes to Dak and Bortles.

There are 9QB 5,000 yard seasons (and Brees has 5 of those) Mahomes is on pace to do it his first year as a starter.

He is on pace to throw 52 TDs the record is 54.

What we are witnessing has NEVER been done before by a year one starter.

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 08:56 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: And I never said get rid of Dalton, I said draft a QB high and push him. If he responds all the power to him. If he gets out played by the younger guy so be it. But you are too busy apologizing for the average way that this team meanders itself about. If I was the owner, ML would have been long gone and if the new coach was looking for a better QB we would try and find one.

No I am not.  I am poitning out to you what pretty much every other team in the league does.

Mahomes may work out for the Chiefs.  We have no idea yet.  From what I have seen it looks like a good bet that he does.  But none of this changes that fact that teams that want to win don't just use high draft picks on QBs when they have a solid young healthy starter.  You just refuse to acknowledge facts and history.

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 11:38 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Lol... comparing mahomes to Dak and Bortles.

There are 9QB 5,000 yard seasons (and Brees has 5 of those) Mahomes is on pace to do it his first year as a starter.

He is on pace to throw 52 TDs the record is 54.

What we are witnessing has NEVER been done before by a year one starter.

And the last rookie to do what had never been done before by a rookie QB was Andrew Luck.  Just look at how great the Colts have been with him.


But even if Mahomes turns into a Hall of Famer that does not mean the Bengals should have taken a chance on him,  Teams usually don't gamble on first round QBs when they have a young healthy solid starter.  Instead they use those picks to build a better team around the QB.  There is no QB in the league who can win a Super Bolw without good talent around him.

[fredtoast]

(11-05-2018, 09:41 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Remind me again what was Elway's playoff record before he won the 2 Super Bowls? 0-5 like Dalton's? 0-7 like Marvin's..Elway could at least win a playoff game (or two or three or more)before the cant win a SB talk started.

The point went over your head.

Bronco fans used the exact same logic you are using when they claimed it was "proven" that Elway could never win a Super Bowl and they were 100% wrong.  He had failed at multiple chances so they said it was "proven" that Elway could not win one.

Dalton may never win a Super Bowl, but nothing is "proven".