2019 Draft: Linebackers, Offensive OT/Guard & DB

[tBengal]

(12-08-2018, 03:28 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I love Hodge. He's a absolute beast. I love Ford due to his versatility ala boling. If Ford isn't there my guard 2 is Lindstrom from Boston college. Also white cover grade this year was 90+.
Quite a few scouts think allen is MASSIVELY over and havr a day 2 grade on him. He's not a fit at all for a 4-3. White better and a better fit.

I see what you're saying about the 3-4 and agree that if White is better suited for the 3-4, that's who we should draft. As for Allen being overrated, I completely disagree. He'll be a top 5-10 pick and play like it. I'm more concerned with White out of the 2 but both will upgrade what we have.

[J24]

(12-10-2018, 10:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I too think Allen makes more sense as a 3-4 OLB, not in a 4-3. However, if Marvin isn't HC after this year, could we end up seeing a shift to a 3-4?

Here is the thing though we have always used the Sam position like a 3-4 end in our scheme. Manny Lawson, David Pollack,  Rashad Jently, James Harrison, Brandon Johnson, Dantay Moch, Michael Johnson, Robert Geathers, and Carl Lawson have all been 3-4 types who we have tried at that position. The thing that Allen brings that those guys haven't is he is used to dropping back in coverage at Kentucky.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-10-2018, 03:27 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Here is the thing though we have always used the Sam position like a 3-4 end in our scheme. Manny Lawson, David Pollack,  Rashad Jently, James Harrison, Brandon Johnson, Dantay Moch, Michael Johnson, Robert Geathers, and Carl Lawson have all been 3-4 types who we have tried at that position. The thing that Allen brings that those guys haven't is he is used to dropping back in coverage at Kentucky.

This is just false. If it was true, you'd see the SAM with a LOT more sacks than what they get. Maybe you're right from a run defender standpoint but it sure isn't the case when it comes to pass rush.
I know that Manny Lawson and James Harrison had no more than 2.0 sacks in a season when playing OLB in Cincinnati whereas they've always had (much) more other places.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Lawson got his sacks when playing from DE spot, not from standup SAM, right?

[*psychdoctor*]

(12-10-2018, 10:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I too think Allen makes more sense as a 3-4 OLB, not in a 4-3. However, if Marvin isn't HC after this year, could we end up seeing a shift to a 3-4?

It is my understanding that the team uses packages for 3-4 & 4-3 now.  With 4-3 being base.  But I could see Dunlap-Billings-Atkins working.  They would have to keep Lawson and Vigil but would need someone like White in the Middle and another backer.  I do not think Burfict will be brought back.  They could go with Allen in round 1 and Coney in round 2 or Edwards in round 3. I just think they need that thumper in the middle like White.

The team needs at least two backers this draft fairly high in the slot positions.  They also need a find in TE and of course RG RT.  

[*ochocincos*]

(12-10-2018, 03:57 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: It is my understanding that the team uses packages for 3-4 & 4-3 now.  With 4-3 being base.  But I could see Dunlap-Billings-Atkins working.  They would have to keep Lawson and Vigil but would need someone like White in the Middle and another backer.  I do not think Burfict will be brought back.  They could go with Allen in round 1 and Coney in round 2 or Edwards in round 3.  I just think they need that thumper in the middle like White.  

The team needs at least two backers this draft fairly high in the slot positions.  They also need a find in TE and of course RG RT.  

They won't have any worthwhile comp picks this year so they'll likely only have one pick in each of the first four rounds. And you can't rely on a 5th round pick contributing significantly in any way, at least not for at least 1-2 years. So the Bengals likely have to utilize FA to help fill those gaps.

[J24]

(12-10-2018, 03:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This is just false. If it was true, you'd see the SAM with a LOT more sacks than what they get. Maybe you're right from a run defender standpoint but it sure isn't the case when it comes to pass rush.
I know that Manny Lawson and James Harrison had no more than 2.0 sacks in a season when playing OLB in Cincinnati whereas they've always had (much) more other places.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Lawson got his sacks when playing from DE spot, not from standup SAM, right?

They use the same type of player thought that was my point. I would not rule out the possibility of drafting Allen if we're a 4-3 that's all I am saying.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-10-2018, 10:51 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: They use the same type of player thought that was my point. I would not rule out the possibility of drafting Allen if we're a 4-3 that's all I am saying.

Then your point was very incorrectly stated because the use of a 3-4 OLB is very different than how the Bengals use a SAM. And I would think it'd be incredibly stupid to draft a LB in the first round to put him at SAM, arguably the least impactful out of the 4-3 LB spots (at least in the Bengals scheme). Bengals need a new MIKE or WILL before they need a SAM.

[J24]

(12-11-2018, 10:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Then your point was very incorrectly stated because the use of a 3-4 OLB is very different than how the Bengals use a SAM. And I would think it'd be incredibly stupid to draft a LB in the first round to put him at SAM, arguably the least impactful out of the 4-3 LB spots (at least in the Bengals scheme). Bengals need a new MIKE or WILL before they need a SAM.

Completely disagree if they were to say draft a Sam linebacker then said player would also double up as an edge rushers. So the player would have tremendous value. Also what makes Allen special is he has the athletic ability to play in coverage as a will or a MLB. It's just not his best position.
Also why are we forgetting guys like Lavar Arrington and Peter Bowlwhere both were in Marvins system and thrived as pass rushers from the OLB in his system. 

[*Synric*]

(12-11-2018, 02:05 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Completely disagree if they were to say draft a Sam linebacker then said player would also double up as an edge rushers. So the player would have tremendous value. Also what makes Allen special is he has the athletic ability to play in coverage as a will or a MLB. It's just not his best position.
Also why are we forgetting guys like Lavar Arrington and Peter Bowlwhere both were in Marvins system and thrived as pass rushers from the OLB in his system. 

Josh Allen would not line up over a TE-F and cover down field as a SAM Linebacker. At best he would be used like Zimmer uses Anthony Barr inside then as an edge rusher...

Preferably I'd like them to go after a 3 down off the ball linebacker and leave the edge rushing to Lawson Hubbard and Dunlap.

[*Synric*]

Chase Hansen is an interesting prospect at Linebacker. Hansen is one of those former safeties switched to linebacker but unlike most of them Hansen had 2 successful seasons at Strong Safety before switching to linebacker. His stats in 2018 are 114 Tackles (70 solo) 2 INTs (1 TD) 4 PDs 5 sacks and 22 TFLs.

Quote:Hansen’s first year as a starter came as a sophomore safety in 2016 and he made an impact right away. As a coverage defender, Hansen was targeted 42 times and allowed 21 receptions for 202 yards with no touchdowns, three interceptions, two pass breakups and opposing quarterbacks had a 34.0 passer rating when throwing into his coverage. As a junior in 2017, Hansen (missing five games due to injury) was targeted 18 times and allowed 10 catches for 62 yards with one touchdown, one interception, one pass breakup while opposing quarterbacks had a 58.1 passer rating when throwing into his coverage. Hansen surrendered only 0.35 yards per coverage snap in 2017, which ranked 23rd among returning FBS safeties heading into this season.

Seeing something in him to make the switch to linebacker, Hansen has been a productive blitzer when given the opportunity. In 2016, Hansen had two sacks, six QB hits and six hurries on 41 pass-rushing snaps for a 26.8 pass-rushing productivity rating, ranking No. 1 among all FBS safeties. In 2017, Hansen had one sack and four hits and his pass-rushing productivity rating of 19.0 ranked No. 7 among all returning FBS safeties.

He has always played the run like a linebacker and has been a sure tackler. As previously mentioned, he often was aligned at linebacker depth when he played safety and a season ago, Hansen played 94.3% of run snaps within eight yards of the line of scrimmage. Hansen’s previous second-level usage has made his transition to linebacker look easy.

Hansen took to the position switch to linebacker by not only retraining his brain but his body as well. Hansen added weight during the offseason to help him take on offensive linemen on a more regular basis and play closer to the line of scrimmage and is now playing at 230 pounds.

Through three games this season, Hansen is grading positively at all three aspects of linebacker play: run defense, pass-rush and coverage. He currently has an 85.1 overall grade which ranks him No. 18 among all FBS linebackers who’ve played at least 20% of their team’s defensive snaps.

He is an athletic coverage defender in addition to being an effective blitzer against the pass and has one interception – a pick-six in Week 2 against Northern Illinois when he jumped a slant route – and opposing quarterbacks have a lowly 49.5 passer rating when throwing into Hansen’s coverage this year.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-breaking-down-chase-hansens-successful-switch-to-linebacker-at-utah

Edit: Coney, Pratt, Cameron Smith, Josh Allen, and Hansen have all accepted Senior Bowl invites.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-11-2018, 02:05 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Completely disagree if they were to say draft a Sam linebacker then said player would also double up as an edge rushers. So the player would have tremendous value. Also what makes Allen special is he has the athletic ability to play in coverage as a will or a MLB. It's just not his best position.
Also why are we forgetting guys like Lavar Arrington and Peter Bowlwhere both were in Marvins system and thrived as pass rushers from the OLB in his system. 

Boulware was from his DC days, not his time in Cincinnati. If he was really serious about using SAM as a pass rusher, he would have pushed James Harrison or Manny Lawson to actually rush the passer more, which they didn't. My point being that while we've heard that was going to happen, it never really did happen in well over a decade.

[*psychdoctor*]

(12-11-2018, 02:27 PM)Synric Wrote: Chase Hansen is an interesting prospect at Linebacker. Hansen is one of those former safeties switched to linebacker but unlike most of them Hansen had 2 successful seasons at Strong Safety before switching to linebacker. His stats in 2018 are 114 Tackles (70 solo) 2 INTs (1 TD) 4 PDs 5 sacks and 22 TFLs.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-breaking-down-chase-hansens-successful-switch-to-linebacker-at-utah

Edit: Coney, Pratt, Cameron Smith, Josh Allen, and Hansen have all accepted Senior Bowl invites.

I listed Hansen as one of the backers to keep an eye on.  Not sure but I think he would play WIL. The Bengals could overload the right side with Hansen and Lawson.  He would be good round 3 and like I said earlier, I am ready to move on from Burfict.  

[Jpoore]

(12-10-2018, 10:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I too think Allen makes more sense as a 3-4 OLB, not in a 4-3. However, if Marvin isn't HC after this year, could we end up seeing a shift to a 3-4?

Don't believe so as we don't really have the personnel. That would also mean Lawson not getting playing time. I see it after dunlap slows down in year or 2.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2018, 03:43 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Don't believe so as we don't really have the personnel. That would also mean Lawson not getting playing time. I see it after dunlap slows down in year or 2.

Lawson was actually projected by some to be a pretty good fit at OLB leading up to draft, so I think he’d be fine as 3-4 OLB.
My thinking for a 3-4 with Josh Allen would be:
Lawson and Allen as 3-4 OLB
Vigil and Burfict as 3-4 ILB
Dunlap and Atkins as 3-4 DE
Billings as 3-4 NT

EDIT - Assuming Burfict/Vigil are not replaced with someone else

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[*psychdoctor*]

(12-12-2018, 04:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Lawson was actually projected by some to be a pretty good fit at OLB leading up to draft, so I think he’d be fine as 3-4 OLB.
My thinking for a 3-4 with Josh Allen would be:
Lawson and Allen as 3-4 OLB
Vigil and Burfict as 3-4 ILB
Dunlap and Atkins as 3-4 DE
Billings as 3-4 NT

EDIT - Assuming Burfict/Vigil are not replaced with someone else

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This looks good.  But another option would be"
Vigil & Lawson as 3-4 OLB
White & Burfict as 3-4 ILB
Dunlap & Atkins ad 3-4 DE
Billings/Glasgow as 3-4 NT rotation

I think White would have a bigger impact.  Allen would provide better pressure though.  

[Bilbo Saggins]

Allen could absolutely be a 4-3 DE, or perhaps an "elephant" like the Seahawks used to employ, where he'd rush over 90% of the time but drop back occasionally. The way that he moves and blurs around the edge reminds me of Bruce Smith(not saying that he's quite that good). He would just need to get stronger so as to be able to anchor better. He's definitely not a SAM LB for the NFL - whoever drafts him will be expecting a double digit sack kind of dude.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-13-2018, 01:03 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: This looks good.  But another option would be"
Vigil & Lawson as 3-4 OLB
White & Burfict as 3-4 ILB
Dunlap & Atkins ad 3-4 DE
Billings/Glasgow as 3-4 NT rotation

I think White would have a bigger impact.  Allen would provide better pressure though.  

I’d rather use Willis as 3-4 OLB than Vigil.
But I'm also perfectly fine with White at ILB so just cut/trade Burfict in this scenario. White and Vigil in the middle, Lawson and Willis outside.

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[Goalpost]

CBS lists Ben Burr-Kirven 18th overall and a 1st rounder at LB. He was named AP 1st team. Their write up...

18. Ben Burr-Kirven, LB, Washington
Burr-Kirven has emerged as the premier "big nickel" prospect in the country. Listed at 6-0 and 222 pounds, the Washington linebacker has safety size, safety coverage skills and is seemingly always around the football. He might be an NFL team's third safety, but with nickel being used somewhere between 60-to-70 percent of the time at the pro level, he can stay at the position he's playing now for the Huskies and flourish. He has amassed a ridiculous 108 tackles in eight games in 2018 and is rarely engulfed by bigger blockers. Linemen simply can't get to him fast enough at the second level, and he's flashed shedding ability.

[BURROWorBUST]

Before we go off the deep end talking about the draft, let's wait and see what we do in free agency.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-24-2018, 12:23 PM)Goalpost Wrote: CBS lists Ben Burr-Kirven 18th overall and a 1st rounder at LB.  He was named AP 1st team.  Their write up...

18. Ben Burr-Kirven, LB, Washington
Burr-Kirven has emerged as the premier "big nickel" prospect in the country. Listed at 6-0 and 222 pounds, the Washington linebacker has safety size, safety coverage skills and is seemingly always around the football. He might be an NFL team's third safety, but with nickel being used somewhere between 60-to-70 percent of the time at the pro level, he can stay at the position he's playing now for the Huskies and flourish. He has amassed a ridiculous 108 tackles in eight games in 2018 and is rarely engulfed by bigger blockers. Linemen simply can't get to him fast enough at the second level, and he's flashed shedding ability.

Marvin Lewis' requirement for LBs - 230+ lbs. While I think BBK could be a good LB, I don't see the Bengals being risky or creative enough to use a sub-230 lb guy at LB. But 165 combined tackles this past season at Washington would be appealing for Marvin. Maybe Marvin would take BBK but try to bulk him up to 230+ lbs before playing him.