Drafting without Marvin Lewis

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-17-2019, 12:31 AM)Jojo the Circus Boy Wrote: My only hope is the new coaches will evaluate everyone with a clean slate and an open mind on how players can help this team. Ross has been misused(and on a short leash ie. getting benched after his first fumble. Kareem Hunt fumbled his first carry and got the ball first on the next series and said the coaches "weren’t going to give up on me and put me on the bench. Honestly it helped me out.") , Westerman has been riding the bench behind the worst guard in the NFL while looking decent in his few chances, Jefferson never saw a defensive snap despite all 3 starters being hurt, and we finally realized how to use Mixon after Dalton got hurt (3 - 100 yard rushing games after his injury vs. 1 with a healthy Dalton. The biggest knock on Lazor in Miami was he ignored the run game). There seem to be some draft picks that are not being used to their true potential, whether through preconcieved ideas, bad coaching, bad game planning, or being in Marvin's doghouse.

Bingo !

It's a story that's repeated itself time and time again under Marvin. Eifert rarely saw the field in long stretch's in his early days despite producing well when he got out there.

[Atomic Orange]

I'd also like to BINGO! that comment.^

Because a majority of our issues were coaching related. Hope we got that fixed.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-16-2019, 10:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 84 Pro Bowlers have been added to the NFL from the last 5 draft classes.

The Bengals have 0 of them despite having 46 draft picks in that time span.

They will be fine without Marvin's drafting. I actually worry a little about Tobin still being around, too.

Should have had one this year in Mixon, but yeah, that’s pretty bad.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-17-2019, 12:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Should have had one this year in Mixon, but yeah, that’s pretty bad.

I know I'm probably in the minority but I think the whole Marvin is this great evaluator of talent is overblown.

[fredtoast]

(01-16-2019, 09:51 PM)BengalChris Wrote: For me I wouldn't want to spend any draft picks on projects, I'd want all my picks to be guys I expect to contribute in year 1. Let someone else draft the projects and develop them. If we like them after their 4 year rookie deal is up we can sign them as free agents. Every one of the 53 man roster spots has to be able to contribute or the team is just setting a ceiling right there. That's why I never understood why the team didn't cut Ogbuehi last year and use that roster spot for someone who can actually play football.

Every player drafted needs to improve and develop before being ready for the NFL.  The best drafting teams are the ones who can judge a players potential instead of just looking at his current level.

Hunt was not a guy who had never played football before.  He was a starter as a sophomore at SMU and earned All Conference honors.  His senior year we has First Team All Conference USA and the MVP of the 2012 Hawaii Bowl.  He still needed some development at draft time, but he was worth a second round pick.  For some reason he did not develop with the Bengals, but it was not because he needed 6 years of training to play well in the NFL.

[BengalChris]

(01-17-2019, 12:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every player drafted needs to improve and develop before being ready for the NFL.  The best drafting teams are the ones who can judge a players potential instead of just looking at his current level.

Hunt was not a guy who had never played football before.  He was a starter as a sophomore at SMU and earned All Conference honors.  His senior year we has First Team All Conference USA and the MVP of the 2012 Hawaii Bowl.  He still needed some development at draft time, but he was worth a second round pick.  For some reason he did not develop with the Bengals, but it was not because he needed 6 years of training to play well in the NFL.

Yes, but will they be ready to contribute *this* year? Or will it take years before they are up to being useful?

Let someone else develop the guys who take years.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-17-2019, 12:49 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yes, but will they be ready to contribute *this* year? Or will it take years before they are up to being useful?

Let someone else develop the guys who take years.

Hunt was a giant reach in the 2nd round, period !

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2019, 12:49 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yes, but will they be ready to contribute *this* year? Or will it take years before they are up to being useful?

Most rookies need a year to develop.  Only about 2 thirds of first round picks are even starters.

If you draft based only on what  guy can do his rookie season you will miss out on a lot of great players.

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2019, 12:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Hunt was a giant reach in the 2nd round, period !

No he was not.

NFL.com had him rated a 2nd-3rd round pick

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/margus-hunt?id=2539310

Draftscout.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=103696&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Walterfootball.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013mhunt.php

[HarleyDog]

We seem to do well with UDFA's. I say we sell all our draft picks, Pick up a few guys off the FA list and then sign some UDFA's.

I kid, I kid.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-17-2019, 01:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he was not.

NFL.com had him rated a 2nd-3rd round pick

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/margus-hunt?id=2539310

Draftscout.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=103696&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Walterfootball.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013mhunt.php

Every season there's about 200 guys rated as 1st-2nd round picks. How many are there actually ?

You could have got him in the 4th most likely

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-17-2019, 01:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he was not.

NFL.com had him rated a 2nd-3rd round pick

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/margus-hunt?id=2539310

Draftscout.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=103696&draftyear=2013&genpos=DE

Walterfootball.com had him as a 1st-2nd round pick

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013mhunt.php

There’s also 50 websites that have him going much lower.

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2019, 01:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Every season there's about 200 guys rated as 1st-2nd round picks. How many are there actually ?

You could have got him in the 4th most likely

You have no idea if we could have gotten him in the 4th.  You can't just make stuff up out of thin air and claim it is true.

(01-17-2019, 02:15 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: There’s also 50 websites that have him going much lower.

So what? There are 50 others who have him as a second round prospect.


The fact is that he was considered a solid 2nd round pick by many experts.  So you can't just claim it is a fact that he was a reach in the second round.

[Shake n Blake]

Tobin is clearly the man as far as scouting goes. Before Tobin, the 90's were littered with busts. After hiring Tobin, one of his first drafts (which was pre-Marvin) is possibly the best draft in team history. Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson and Houshmandzadeh in 2001. Where was Marvin for that one?

We'll be fine. From everything I've seen/read, Tobin was essentially handing Marvin etc a list of players he recommended and they went from there. I assume the next coach will have a similar role and freedom, with input from position coaches, just like Merv.

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People keep acting like the team will fall apart (as if it hadn't already) without Marv's influence. First it was "the new coach won't have any control" - and Taylor already has complete control over his staff before he's even hired. Now it's "our drafts won't be the same". It's going to be fun to watch these all these narratives about how helpless we are without Marv fall one by one.

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2019, 02:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tobin is clearly the man as far as scouting goes. Before Tobin, the 90's were littered with busts. After hiring Tobin, one of his first drafts (which was pre-Marvin) is possibly the best draft in team history. Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson and Houshmandzadeh in 2001. Where was Marvin for that one?

We'll be fine. From everything I've seen/read, Tobin was essentially handing Marvin etc a list of players he recommended and they went from there. I assume the next coach will have a similar role and freedom, with input from position coaches, just like Merv.

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I tend to agree.  Bengals were solid in the draft, but not amazing.  I don't think we can claim that Lewis was some sort of draft savant.  Especially when it is not clear how much influence he really had.

[McC]

(01-17-2019, 02:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tobin is clearly the man as far as scouting goes. Before Tobin, the 90's were littered with busts. After hiring Tobin, one of his first drafts (which was pre-Marvin) is possibly the best draft in team history. Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson and Houshmandzadeh in 2001. Where was Marvin for that one?

We'll be fine. From everything I've seen/read, Tobin was essentially handing Marvin etc a list of players he recommended and they went from there. I assume the next coach will have a similar role and freedom, with input from position coaches, just like Merv.

---------

People keep acting like the team will fall apart (as if it hadn't already) without Marv's influence. First it was "the new coach won't have any control" - and Taylor already has complete control over his staff before he's even hired. Now it's "our drafts won't be the same". It's going to be fun to watch these all these narratives about how helpless we are without Marv fall one by one.

The possibility does exist that we could see in the near future just how poorly we've been coached lately.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-17-2019, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I tend to agree.  Bengals were solid in the draft, but not amazing.  I don't think we can claim that Lewis was some sort of draft savant.  Especially when it is not clear how much influence he really had.

We've had some ups and downs over the last 16-19 years. 2001 and 2010 drafts were outstanding. We've also had more than our fair share of clunkers. Especially lately. I'm with Leonard Leap in that I'm not exactly sold on Tobin anymore, but I'm willing to give him a shot with a new coaching staff.

[3wt]

(01-16-2019, 11:39 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Mike should really never force anything on a coach. Hopefully, with the way things are going, that is something of the past.

Well he was out voted on taking Justin Smith (a great player) instead of the player he wanted:  Drew Brees

[3wt]

(01-16-2019, 03:33 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: that draft just makes me sick to my stomach.

I had the same reaction

[3wt]

(01-16-2019, 09:46 PM)hotweales Wrote: Hunt played pretty well for Indianapolis this season. Makes me think that maybe we just need to be better with player development and putting players in the right scheme to be successful.

Hunt was always going to have a long learning curve.

Irons is unfair.   He was looking like a stud till he got injured.  Having a catastrophic injury does not qualify as a whiff at all.