Are We A Contender Now?!

[Catmandude123]

(01-31-2019, 08:56 AM)Takedown Wrote:  There's not one person on this board that can tell me based off of our finishing record that we have a decent chance of finishing better than 1-5 in our division next year.

I will be that person. The Bengals lost two to the Steelers by a total of ten points. Lost one to the Ravens by three points. While Cleveland beat us by a total of twenty three Andy only played a little over one half of one game. We have the weapons to compete in what is in my mind one of the weakest divisions in the NFL. WE will need some players to return and stay healthy along with a few top tier FAs. New coach and new coordinators and a good draft and we are playoff bound.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-01-2019, 09:17 PM)jason Wrote: That's how 2003 started with Marvin Lewis. There's more talent on this team, but it's not outta the question. They kinda sputtered at the beginning of the 2011 season too before they got going.

The difference is, when Marvin came to town in '03, that team at least had an OL to build from.  This team has some talented skill players, but needs an OL to support them.

[motoarch]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

this thread

[Hammerstripes]

Here's the reality:

IF, and it's a huge IF, this team stays healthy then there is no reason that they can't win the division.

There aren't a ton of holes to fill on this team. RG, RT, LB are the only glaring needs. The rest are decent.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-01-2019, 09:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The difference is, when Marvin came to town in '03, that team at least had an OL to build from.  This team has some talented skill players, but needs an OL to support them.

Our line was not that great in 2002 in overall performance 16 TD and 4.1 yard avg.  and 37 sacks, 2018 team 27 TD 4,7 yard avg 37 sacks. We had 2 established lineman Anderson and Braham.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-02-2019, 02:08 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Our line was not that great in 2002 in overall performance 16 TD and 4.1 yard avg.  and 37 sacks, 2018 team 27 TD 4,7 yard avg 37 sacks. We had 2 established lineman Anderson and Braham.

Bullshit.  Levi Jones was a Rookie, but O'Dwyer and Goff were seasoned veterans. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-02-2019, 03:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Bullshit.  Levi Jones was a Rookie, but O'Dwyer and Goff were seasoned veterans. 

Marvin Lewis did not walk into a bad roster despite the guys trying to set up a built in excuse for him just in case ZT has success.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-31-2019, 03:13 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I know we have a few holes to fill and I know some positions need to be strengthened, but could this team be a contender if things fall right?!

Taylor is going to bring in his own coaching staff, which means that they'll be qualified, especially since he's a young guy and will have more fire than Marvin, as well as more knowledge for the modern, offensive-oriented game.  Taylor will also bring a new energy to the team that the players will relate to.  He had the Broncos and Cardinals chasing after him this offseason, so I feel pretty good about him being qualified for the job.

As I mentioned, we do have some holes to fill and positions to strengthen. For instance, we definitely need to improve the line, as well as one or two linebackers, but that can be done through the draft and free agency.  Maybe bringing in a tight end would help.  I like Bates but I think Williams needs some competition.  

People bash Dalton, but the guy will have a former quarterback coach (and former college quarterback himself) leading the way and forming game plans to his (and the rest of the team's) strengths.

We have AJ, who's still one of the top receivers in the league and will also greatly benefit from the coaching changes, and we have young guys across from him like Core, Ross, and Boyd, who could also breakout with a change of scenery.  

Mixon's an absolute beast and could be in the running for the rushing title, and we also have Bernard to change things up and keep defenses off-balance.

I'm pumped about our defensive line with Atkins and Billings because I think he'll have a better year than anyone that's ever played NT/LDT and I think he can do a lot of damage.  With those two in the middle of the line, I'm excited what guys like Dunlap, Hubbard, MJ, Lawson, etc., can do on the outside when they're single blocked.

A pass rush will greatly help our corners and I think we could finally see them play to their potential.

I'm also excited for new coordinators and what they can do with the talent on this team.

I had more but I'm playing poker online and I'm tired, but are we a contender now?!

I highlighted some of the players you mentioned as indication that we have a solid core of players on both sides of the ball.  We know the one glaring weakness on the offense is the line, specifically the right side.  With their sites on a RT in the draft that can compete against Hart and a competition between Redmond and Westerman at RG, I think those upgrades combined with a healthy Billy Price will pay huge dividends...not to mention a scheme from this decade.  The offense is a contender.

On defense, there is a much bigger weakness, as in weaknesses....the LB corps is pathetically weak on talent and depth.  Vigil is solid, but I am not able to bring myself to count on Burfict (I think concussions have a LOT to do with it) and the rest are backups.  They need a very high pick on LB and potentially two, plus a FA that can be a quality starter. 

The defense also needs improvement in the middle of the line at DT.  Geno is a great penetrater, but doesn't form a run defense wall and the opposite DTs have been very inconsistent.  Hopefully, Glasgow comes back 100% and Billings shows up in better shape and makes a larger impact, but this position needs addressed.  

We have a secondary most teams would love, but it was wasted on scheme and a front four that didn't generate much pass rush.  Dramatic improvements at the LB position would go a long way to help both issues.  I Is the defense a contender?  No.  They will have to nail the draft and FA to make the defense a contender.

Special teams are definitely a contender.  

Coaching may now, for the first time in a while, be a contender.  New, fresh, aggressive....if nothing else, they should be a lot more fun to watch.  

[*jason*]

(02-02-2019, 03:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Bullshit.  Levi Jones was a Rookie, but O'Dwyer and Goff were seasoned veterans. 

Wasn't Steinbach there back then too? I thought he came in that draft with Chad.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-02-2019, 12:23 PM)jason Wrote: Wasn't Steinbach there back then too? I thought he came in that draft with Chad.

He wasn't on the 2002 team.  I think Steinbach was drafted on '03, he started as a rookie that season, taking over for O'Dwyer. Either way, it's pretty obvious that the team that Marvin Lewis took over had a pretty good OL to work with, compared to today's team that Taylor is starting out with.

[Luvnit2]

Here are the facts, you can decide who you think is taking over the better roster between new guy (probably Taylor and ML)
ML Changeover - 2002 to 2003
2002                                                2003
Offense 28th points/                     13th in points (+15)
Yards - 18th/                                13th in yards (+5)
Turnovers - 35/                            25 Turnovers (+10)
Ave. Points Per Game - 16.8/         21.6 (+4.8)
Defense
Points Per game - 32/                    28 (+4)
Yards Allowed - 17th/                     28 (-11 Worse))
Ave. Points per Game - 28.5/          24 (4.5 better)
Won and Lost - 2-14/                     8-8 (+6)

New Guy
2018                                          2019 - ALL TBD
Offense Points - 17th/                    TBD
Yards - 26th/
Turnovers - 17/
Ave. Points Per Game - 23.0/
Defense
PPG - 30/
YPG - 32/
Turnovers -18/
Ave. PPG - 28.4/
Won and Lost 6-10/


These are the facts, while the yards per game may be higher or lower based on rule changes, the rankings are apples to apples since they are against the other 31 teams.


Other tidbits, Kitna was QB in both 2002 and 2003 and was not injured

Dalton was injured in 2018 as was #1 receiver Green


Looks like both teams had struggling defenses the year prior to a new head coach

[fredtoast]

(02-02-2019, 08:51 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin Lewis did not walk into a bad roster despite the guys trying to set up a built in excuse for him just in case ZT has success.

Lets nip this in the bud.  

For years I have been castigated for being an ureasonable homer.  I was accused of defending everything the team did.  But now, just because I don't automatically assume Taylor will be an improvement over Marvin I am now rooting AGAINST the Bengals.

This is ridiculous. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-01-2019, 05:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ML took over a decade losing team. As far Steeler's record, please show where I said his record against them was acceptable. I said you spread fake news when you say we always lost to them, that was flat out lie.

I expect playoffs if the team stays healthy (health is only excuse I accept). I think that is more fair than the expectations many gave ML last year, the team was decimated with injury, but ML was supposed to overcome it.

You are the one who put the emphasis on ALWAYS.

Of course we beat them once in awhile for heck sake. You are just taking things way to literally and want to argue.

To say it is a flat out lie is unfair, i was not meaning we lost every damn time to the Steelers that would be impossible.

Is it crazy that i agree with you? But i do not care for your tone and i have moved on from Marv, go ahead and defend him, i will not argue with that. I will argue with you though if you think Marv should of been brought back cause of the team being decimated with injury. That would be stupid. He had chance after chance.

[*jason*]

(02-02-2019, 03:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You are the one who put the emphasis on ALWAYS.

Of course we beat them once in awhile for heck sake. You are just taking things way to literally and want to argue.

To say it is a flat out lie is unfair, i was not meaning we lost every damn time to the Steelers that would be impossible.

Is it crazy that i agree with you? But i do not care for your tone and i have moved on from Marv, go ahead and defend him, i will not argue with that. I will argue with you though if you think Marv should of been brought back cause of the team being decimated with injury. That would be stupid. He had chance after chance.

We've lost to them every damn time for going on 4 years, so I'd say close enough...

[Essex Johnson]

(02-02-2019, 03:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Bullshit.  Levi Jones was a Rookie, but O'Dwyer and Goff were seasoned veterans. 

seasoned veterans does not mean good.. Odwyer in 2003 started 4 games and was gone by 2004... hmm. that would be like saying Hopkins was a sesoned veteran so does that him good.. bottom line we were 2-14 with this line.. you can't just excuse the line plus i indicated we had more 11 more TDS..  over half yard average better in running and same sacks 37 2018 to 2002 plus we won 4 more games.. so please explain the superior line play of 2002 team ??

[Essex Johnson]

(02-02-2019, 12:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He wasn't on the 2002 team.  I think Steinbach was drafted on '03, he started as a rookie that season, taking over for O'Dwyer.  Either way, it's pretty obvious that the team that Marvin Lewis took over had a pretty good OL to work with, compared to today's team that Taylor is starting out with.

2018 line outperformed 2002 line so please explain why 

[Essex Johnson]

(02-02-2019, 08:51 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin Lewis did not walk into a bad roster despite the guys trying to set up a built in excuse for him just in case ZT has success.

so how about simple math.. here are the records of the previous 3 years before Lewis and before Taylor. please explain how Marvin had such a superior team..   

1999 to 02 Bengals were 16-48

2015-18- 31-32


sorry to say the Bengals were more talented over a 4 year period of Marvin just does not work. and just so you know most rookies are on a 3/4 year contract.. so the drafted players from 1999/00 are on the team in  2003

[kevin]

Are We In Super Bowl ? Then we aren't contenders NOW. As in NOW. Lets get the new coaches in here. That means new playbooks. New team concept. Players kept and new players have to be the solution, not the problem. If they are the problem, you terminate them. Even at that, Bengals will still be in tough division with Ravens, Steelers, up and coming Browns. This means a lot of Hard Work in Practice and Motivation way before first snap from center at start of regular season. So a lot of hard work before September.

Are Bengals Contenders Now ? No, they are a Last Place team. Do not show up in camp like they just won Super Bowl. They are a Last Place Team. Use that to hit camp and get angry, get determined to be better. Being a contender depends upon how hard these coaches and players go at it the next 7 months and then the 5 months of season.

Bengals are pretty bad, so the rebuilding might take a couple years. When Paul Brown became coach of Bengals he said not to expect much the first 5 years. You have to give a new coach a few years to build HIS system, HIS type players. However in today's NFL, Bengals could be in thick of things in 2019. Much work to be done to make that happen though. Bengals can't block or tackle and have no Team Spirit. That all has to change before winning can ever be accomplished. As per Knute Rockne, and it is still true. Block, Tackle, Team Spirit are the Basics Of Winning. The Bengals need a 180 degree turn around in these areas. The new coaches are coming on to a very bad team over the last 3 years, and that's not even open for debate. Last Place is Last Place. Even Cleveland has moved out in front and is ahead of us in rebuilding.

[*psychdoctor*]

The confounding variable in all this is the real possibility that Mike Brown has step down in day-to-day decisions and operations. If Taylor comes in and secures the Bengals a playoff win in the next 2-3 years, it could be his leadership for sure, but also because of the change in the Front Office.

The reality is that things may not get better for a while even with all of the historic changes in team personnel. NFL is a tough business to be perennial playoff winners because it requires a culture of winning. This was certainly not going to happen under Mike Brown with Marvin Lewis as Head Coach; and may not happen even with the new coaches if Mike Brown is involved in decision regarding players.

Marvin Lewis did well for years but I think he was worn toward the end. Fans could see it. Players saw it. Change was needed. The new hope is Taylor will have the power to implement his ideas to lead the Bengals to a SB victory with a new front office in charge.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-03-2019, 01:28 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: seasoned veterans does not mean good.. Odwyer in 2003 started 4 games and was gone by 2004... hmm. that would be like saying Hopkins was a sesoned veteran so does that him good.. bottom line we were 2-14 with this line.. you can't just excuse the line plus i indicated we had more 11 more TDS..  over half yard average better in running and same sacks 37 2018 to 2002 plus we won 4 more games.. so please explain the superior line play of 2002 team ??

Just because they were 2-14 with that line does not mean that they were 2-14 because of that line.  The problems with that team, and previous ones in that era wasn't a lack of talent on the team, as much as it was a failure to perform to their abilities.  They had huge problems with morale, attitude, and general climate of organizational culture.

Where with the 2018 team, we have a team that failed to make the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, even after a 4-1 start to the season.  I think that it can be argued fairly that the offense put up average numbers this season in spite of the line being poor, rather than because of it "performing better" than the 2002 line.

Again, here is the 2002 team.  A lot of talent on that roster, equal to or greater than what we have today.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2002_roster.htm