It's time to put an end to Model Model

[*Synric*]

(02-11-2019, 10:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes - Our draft picks generally either come in playing well as a rookie, or are busts.

How many guys outside of Boyd have came in looking average and then developed to the point that by year 3 they were good players?

Nick Vigil was leading the team in tackles and was leading the league in stops before his injury.

Andrew Billings stepped up as a solid 2 down NT especially the second half of the season when he was second in run stops by interior lineman.

Christian Westerman in spot duty was the best offensive lineman on the field alot of the time when playing.

Tyler Boyd...

[THE PISTONS]

(02-11-2019, 11:09 AM)Synric Wrote: Nick Vigil was leading the team in tackles and was leading the league in stops before his injury.

Andrew Billings stepped up as a solid 2 down NT especially the second half of the season when he was second in run stops by interior lineman.

Christian Westerman in spot duty was the best offensive lineman on the field alot of the time when playing.

Tyler Boyd...

Vigil improved some from Year 1 to 2.

Billings? I haven't really seen much improvement in him.

Westerman? - I'd love to see him play more...but he's hardly the poster child for improvement from year to year.

Boyd is the obvious example.

Even if all 4 of those guys did develop a lot...most teams have way more guys improve.

[McC]

(02-11-2019, 10:48 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You are probably right on this.

In his last 2 years with Buffalo, I'm pretty sure he had issues with his feet that caused him to miss A LOT of time.

He's just a huge guy and it's a lot of stress on his back and joints as you accurately assessed. Chances are, it won't get better with age.

A guy his size, when he gets five or six years into his career, needs to lose at least five pounds a year to compensate for age and wear and tear on all his joints.  He'll be turning thirty right about the time the season starts.  

[*Synric*]

(02-11-2019, 11:14 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Vigil improved some from Year 1 to 2.

Billings? I haven't really seen much improvement in him.

Westerman? - I'd love to see him play more...but he's hardly the poster child for improvement from year to year.

Boyd is the obvious example.

Even if all 4 of those guys did develop a lot...most teams have way more guys improve.

I dont understand what you're trying to argue. 

Vigil and Billings both took a decent step in year 3 into solid contribtors. Boyd had a breakout year. That's 3 of 7 guys of the 2016 draft that had good years in their 3rd season.

Westerman didnt get the playing time he should have but everytime he did touch the field he was very good so I can argue 4 of 7.

WJ3 had that "great" year last year but you could see especially in the second half of the season he was alot more refined as a corner and it wasnt just his speed saving plays like his sophomore year.

I think you believe teams turn alot of their 3rd year players into "elite" prospects but that is simply not true at all.

[THE PISTONS]

(02-11-2019, 11:30 AM)Synric Wrote: I dont understand what you're trying to argue. 

Vigil and Billings both took a decent step in year 3 into solid contribtors. Boyd had a breakout year. That's 3 of 7 guys of the 2016 draft that had good years in their 3rd season.

Westerman didnt get the playing time he should have but everytime he did touch the field he was very good so I can argue 4 of 7.

WJ3 had that "great" year last year but you could see especially in the second half of the season he was alot more refined as a corner and it wasnt just his speed saving plays like his sophomore year.

I think you believe teams turn alot of their 3rd year players into "elite" prospects but that is simply not true at all.

I wouldn't consider Billings a solid contributor.

Westerman? - If he developed as much as you say, he would have played a lot more.

WJ3 came in really good when he started playing.

My narrative is that the Bengals coaching staff did not develop players outside of a few rare instances. Players either came in playing at a high level or they rarely developed. I'm not even talking into elite players. I'm talking developed into better players.

[McC]

(02-11-2019, 11:36 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wouldn't consider Billings a solid contributor.

Westerman? - If he developed as much as you say, he would have played a lot more.

WJ3 came in really good when he started playing.

My narrative is that the Bengals coaching staff did not develop players outside of a few rare instances. Players either came in playing at a high level or they rarely developed. I'm not even talking into elite players. I'm talking developed into better players.

Billings graded out at 74.9 for the season.  Nothing wrong  with that.  And he's still only 24.

[*Synric*]

(02-11-2019, 11:36 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wouldn't consider Billings a solid contributor.

Westerman? - If he developed as much as you say, he would have played a lot more.

WJ3 came in really good when he started playing.

My narrative is that the Bengals coaching staff did not develop players outside of a few rare instances. Players either came in playing at a high level or they rarely developed. I'm not even talking into elite players. I'm talking developed into better players.

If you disagree let's compare the Bengals 2016 draft to the Steelers.

1. Artie Burns
2. Sean Davis
3. Javon Hargrave
4. Jareld Hawkins
6. Travis Freeny
7. Tyler Matakevich


Looks to me like the Bengals had more guys step up from that draft than the Steelers.

 Hargrave is a very good tackle and Sean Davis was solid but unspectacular...and that is it the only other player on that list that plays is Artie Burns and he's not very good.

Browns 2016 contributors are Emmanuel Ogbah and Joe Schobert.

The Ravens probably had the best 2016 draft in the AFC North getting Ronnie Stanley, Matt Judon, and Tavon Young. But it's really really close...

Edit: I take it back the Bengals had the best 2016 draft in the AFC North.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-11-2019, 11:09 AM)Synric Wrote: Nick Vigil was leading the team in tackles and was leading the league in stops before his injury.

Andrew Billings stepped up as a solid 2 down NT especially the second half of the season when he was second in run stops by interior lineman.

Christian Westerman in spot duty was the best offensive lineman on the field alot of the time when playing.

Tyler Boyd...

....but then you have guys like Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Margus Hunt, Devon Still, Thompson (drawing a blank on the first name), Will Clarke, Jordan Willis to an extent, Dontay Moch, Russell Bodine, etc, etc.

[*Synric*]

(02-11-2019, 12:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....but then you have guys like Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Margus Hunt, Devon Still, Thompson (drawing a blank on the first name), Will Clarke, Jordan Willis to an extent, Dontay Moch, Russell Bodine, etc, etc.

Yea cant hit on everyone. I was always saying that even though they drafted well in the Dalton era they wasted so many bad picks in defensive front 7. They finally started getting play out of their defensive line picks the last few years after replacing Jay Hayes.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-11-2019, 12:08 PM)Synric Wrote: Yea cant hit on everyone. I was always saying that even though they drafted well in the Dalton era they wasted so many bad picks in defensive front 7. They finally started getting play out of their defensive line picks the last few years after replacing Jay Hayes.

.....which is what I'm getting at.  The Marvin stink is off now, gotta hope the new staff can develop and get more out of their players.  In my post you quoted, there are many, many more players I could have thrown into that mix.  Some of those players, like Russell Bodine, left here and became good players.  Bodine's numbers were actually pretty damn good in Buffalo before he got hurt.  Here?  He was rated as one of the league's worst centers.  Margus Hunt had more sacks in one season in Indy than he had his entire time here.  Hell, he couldn't even get on the field much here.  These are just two examples, among the handful of players I mentioned. I know I'm forgetting more.

You are right, you can't hit on everyone, and we did waste a crap ton of picks on the front 7.  That being said, they've also not done the best job getting players outside of the top rounds to develop into much over the last few years, except for dline after they axed Hayes.  Some weren't good to begin with, some needed better coaching than they got here.

If you're going to use that model, you not only have to hit on more picks than you miss, you also must develop the talent you snag in the later rounds some.

[fredtoast]

(02-11-2019, 11:36 AM)THE P ISTONS Wrote: My narrative is that the Bengals coaching staff did not develop players outside of a few rare instances. Players either came in playing at a high level or they rarely developed. I'm not even talking into elite players. I'm talking developed into better players.

At some point you have to give the Bengals credit for something.  

We never signed any top free agents yet we made it to the playoffs 5 straight years.  I know some people claim making the playoffs 5 straight years is a meaningless nothing, but it is a lot better than a lot of other teams.

In the past few years we found multiple starters in the 4th round or later (Geno Atkins, Clint Boling, Marvin Jones, George Iloka, Russell Bodine, C.J. Uzomah, Andrew Billings, Ryan Glasglow, Carl Lawson)

Our coaches also got good production from players that had flopped under other NFL coaches (Reggie Nelson, Wallace Gilberry, Cedric Benson, Kyle Cook, Dhani Jones)

[THE PISTONS]

Oh the Atkins/Dunlap and Green, Dalton, Boling drafts were phenomenal!

What changed recently? Well, free agency gutted our roster 3-4 years in a row.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-11-2019, 12:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh the Atkins/Dunlap and Green, Dalton, Boling drafts were phenomenal!

What changed recently? Well, free agency gutted our roster 3-4 years in a row.

Those drafts were grand slams.  They've had a couple of homerun drafts, a base hit or two, and went down looking in 2015, yikes!

Good players leaving certainly played a part, as did lazy hires like Ken Zampese to OC.

[THE PISTONS]

(02-11-2019, 01:01 PM)Wyche Wrote: Those drafts were grand slams.  They've had a couple of homerun drafts, a base hit or two, and went down looking in 2015, yikes!

Good players leaving certainly played a part, as did lazy hires like Ken Zampese to OC.

Really, we've just failed to replace core players:

Whitworth, Zeitler, Peko, Jones (finally replaced by Boyd), Sanu, Nelson, Andre Smith, Leon Hall, etc.

[*ochocincos*]

Acting like Coles was never an upper-tier WR is wrong.
He had four seasons out of 950+ yards, two of which were 1200+. He had produced very well on more than one occasion.
The problem with Coles in Cincinnati was that he was 32 years old when he played in Cincinnati. He was past his prime.

[BengalChris]

(02-11-2019, 10:47 AM)Wyche Wrote: While I absolutely agree about the need to gain more value via FA, the real issue with that model was the inability to coach up and develop players.  That just had a tendency to not happen here.  

This is very true. Also a contributing factor is drafting players who just don't see to get it. Ogbuehi, Fisher, Hunt, Still, Ross to a lessor degree (2 years of not quite getting it), etc, etc. Maybe these guys can learn, but maybe they just don't have much in the way IQ.

 

[THE PISTONS]

(02-11-2019, 02:31 PM)BengalChris Wrote: This is very true. Also a contributing factor is drafting players who just don't see to get it. Ogbuehi, Fisher, Hunt, Still, Ross to a lessor degree (2 years of not quite getting it), etc, etc. Maybe these guys can learn, but maybe they just don't have much in the way IQ.

 

Ced had a major injury when we drafted him. That pick had red flags all over it.

Hunts age made him a red flag.

Ross had injury concerns and some teams supposedly took him off their board. Others had him graded 2nd Round. Definitely atleast orange flags if not fully red.

Fisher and Still seemed like good picks at the time.

[McC]

(02-11-2019, 02:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Acting like Coles was never an upper-tier WR is wrong.
He had four seasons out of 950+ yards, two of which were 1200+. He had produced very well on more than one occasion.
The problem with Coles in Cincinnati was that he was 32 years old when he played in Cincinnati. He was past his prime.

Plus, he just didn't give a shit.

[THE PISTONS]

And if I recall correctly, he couldn't get separation.

Housh was on his last legs when he left here too. He had 900+ yards for Seattle that season, but then he was basically done the next year.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-11-2019, 03:43 PM)McC Wrote: Plus, he just didn't give a shit.

Uhh....what?