Can we just take a step back and look at the roster?

[grampahol]

I think one HUGE problem with this team is the owner's absolute reluctance to make trades for good or bad.  Look what it took for him to pull the trigger on trading Palmer.. The guy was fully prepared to quit football altogether if necessary.. Waited to trade Chad until he was washed up..
This has really hurt this team over the years and will likely continue to haunt them probably even after he's gone. I don't see the youngins much willing to make trades either.. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 01:45 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Mixed in with all of the anger and frustration over free agency I'm seeing phrases like "worst in the NFL", "expansion team", and "tank", but can we just actually look at our roster for a second and reflect on this? Because I think that people are vastly exaggerating just how bad this roster actually is...

Offense -
QB: Andy Dalton*, 21 TDs to 11 INTs last year, was on pace for 3700 yards, has had a good-to-great career here despite naysayers
WR1: AJ Green*, was on pace for 81 catches and 1200 yards last season, Hall of Fame caliber player
WR2: Tyler Boyd*, 76 catches, 1028 yards, despite missing 2 games last year
RB1: Joe Mixon*, 1168 yards, averaging 4.9 a carry, led the AFC in rushing. Also had 43 catches for almost 300 yards.
RB2: Gio Bernard*, shifty runner and good receiver, averaged over 4.6 a carry in starts last season.
TE: CJ Uzomah*, not great, but still had 43 receptions for 439 yards while playing hurt (18th in the league in yards). The rest of our TEs are not sorted out yet, but I think they'll bring back Tyler Eifert*, and wee know what he can do if healthy. I'll take those 2.
OL: Cordy Glenn and  Clint Boling* were fine. Billy Price* struggled as a rookie, so you give him a little leeway there. Alex Redmond* and Bobby Hart were not good. Hopkins played well as a backup last year, and Westerman has his fans while buried in the depth chart.

Defense -
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year and played well. Glasgow* and Washington appear to provide solid depth at DT.
Secondary: William Jackson* is really, really good, and if last year was a disappointment it's primarily because of how high expectations were going in. Tyler Bates* had a great rookie year. Shawn Williams* is solid. Dre Kirkpatrick* is... well, let's go with serviceable. There's isn't much behind any of these guys.
Linebacker: If DL is the strongest position group, then this is by far the weakest. Vontaze Burfict* appears to be a shell of himself if he can even stay on the field. Nick Vigil* appears to be average, not necessarily someone you'd want starting. Preston Brown was hurt all of last year and has detractors, but he has led the NFL in tackles before as well. They don't have much behind these three, either.

So what does this tell me?
1) That no team with that much talent at the offensive skill positions is going to be the "worst in the league" or "expansion" level.
2) That since every player marked with a * was drafted by this front office, they're nowhere near as clueless as people like to pretend.
3) That the primary needs to address are linebacker, the right side of the OL, and TE (assuming they don't re-sign Eifert). I think these are what they grab with their first few picks.
4) That if you're planning to address those in the draft, the main focus in free agency should be depth, particularly in the secondary and wide receiver.

What the responses will be:
1) "Yeah, but these guys won 6 games last year." Would you say that is solely a product of the talent (many of whom got hurt, remember)?
2) "If those defensive guys are so good, why did they finish dead last in the league last year in defense?" Mostly coaching, IMO, and you can see that since they improved as soon as they ditched their DC. I believe the old expression that players and units generally "play to the back of their cards", so to speak, so I'll chalk it up as an outlier for now.
3) "Do you really think these guys have a shot next year?" Maybe, depending on if certain things fall the right way. I'm not writing them off just yet.
4) "Homer!" Do you really deny the talent this team has at the offensive skill positions and defensive lines? I've acknowledged where they need help, but it's not exactly everywhere on the field either. They have some real strengths out there.

This team was 4-1 while basically outscoring teams with a pathetic zone scheme and zero LB play outside Vigil.  Injuries (and predictability) doomed the offense, so improve the depth and the coaching.

The defense played better once they FINALLY played to the strength of the secondary (man) but had no quality LB other than Vigil and not much pressure from the front four, although Hubbard looked pretty good as a rookie and seemed to play with more fire than some of the rest.  So, add some talent at DT to play next to Geno, sign a FA or two at LB (one done already, draft a LB or two, and stick to the more aggressive scheme from day 1.  They will have Lawson this year healthy as well.  

It will be easy for most to discount the Bengals but the facts are this:  The steelers and rats got worse.  The Browns got better.  It will be a hard-fought division, but I like that we have a new coach that no one knows what to expect of.  There is no film on his offense.  He will surely have more aggression and creativity than the dolts we have had since Hue's last stint at OC.

The Bengals are not dead.  And I can't wait to see what an aggressive, creative mind does with this talent.  I have said for years that we had some race horses that are relegated to plow duties.  It is time to open things up and attack.  On both sides.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 02:07 PM)Bengals731 Wrote: b]Defense
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year.

If this is the strongest group , they didn’t show it last year. I don’t disagree with you but they didn’t play great last year. Lawson getting hurt was unfortunate but he was struggling before the injury. Dunlap didn’t get enough pressure on the QB and Atkins struggled in the second half of the season. Hard for some CBs to cover that long every play, We need pass rushers. A good pass rush makes everyone look better , a bad one makes them look worse. We need to take a pass rusher at 11..

Or, we need another player free to blitz by playing more man coverage, which is what suits this secondary.  We were one of the least frequent blitzing teams in the NFL.  I am sure someone will give an example of a team that doesn't blitz a  ton that made the playoffs (Colts?) but I think if we want more out of our defense, get them playing up on their toes and not on their heels.  Not just LBs, but safeties and even corners.  Get after the opposing QB.  If the Bengals are able to get one of the top DT in Rd 1, opposing QBs will have a tough time stepping up in the pocket and the outside rushers will eat.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: For me the biggest issue of the roster is the depth.  They need a better backup qb in case Andy goes down for a game or two, or more. They definitely need better WR depth. And so-on at other positions that are 1 injury away from disaster because the backups are just not good even as backups.

Otherwise, the starting roster is pretty solid overall. But when injuries come, they need better players to step up than what they have had. And this comes from better drafting and scouring free agents. Just my 2 cents on this.

I think McCarron is available again?  And I agree on depth.  My guess is new regime won't have guys in and out of dog houses.  The bigger WRs like Core, Tate, and Malone should get lots of work behind Green, Boyd, Erickson, and Ross.  

They need depth at OT, LB, and a big improvement at DT to put next to Geno.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 02:20 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I agree with you that they didn't play up to expectations last year. There were predictions at the start of the season that they'd break the franchise record for sacks! The talent is there, though...

IF I am defensive line coach...work on one thing:  Hand Work.  Some teams are simply allowed to hold.  Some teams will rarely if ever draw a holding penalty.  If they want to make and impact, they need to learn to hand fight and stop getting stoned every time someone gets their hands on them.  See Bosa, Joey for examples.  You grab at him, he will smack your arms to the ground and fly by you.  Bosa is big and strong, but hand technique can and should be taught.  We are one of the absolutely worst teams at disengaging while being blocked (held).

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 02:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: To me, this is where Erickson could excel.  And, for the love of Pete, get more use out of Bernard this year!

My prediction as soon as the coaching staff was hired was that the two players that stand to benefit from the new regime over any others is Gio and Ross.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A lot of people will dismiss this as "homer talk" but I think the 2019 version of Price will be like adding a totally different player if he can stay healthy and work out all offseason.  He was barely cleared in time to start training camp last year.  That had to really hurt his performance as a rookie

Price will be the most improved player this year, IMHO, and Gio and Ross will become a big part of the offense.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 02:52 PM)impactplaya Wrote: their is a abundance of talent on this roster.
I think Lazor got exposed for being very ridgid in his play calling and the offense suffered.
if Eifert isnt resigned then I worry about the depth at TE.
we need a 4th reciever to step up and be a key contributor on 3rd down and the red zone.
that 4th WR has bring something unique to the table.
I believe Taylor Callahan can offer fresh innovative schemes to the offense
The oline is better buy subtraction if anything.

defensively health is paramount. Id like to see Dunlap.actually get more than 7.5 sacks a year.
Somebody needs to take the heat off Geno and turn into a pocket destroyer.
LBers need a dymanic playmaker ala Odell Thurman.
secondary doesnt bother me. they finished the year strong.

Remember, Dunlap is a LDE.  He sets the edge well and gets a decent share of the pressure.  The missing piece to make it all work is a DT next to Geno that has freakish ability.  There might be two when we select.  At least one should be there.  I am jumping all over that pick if he is there.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 05:57 PM)Shouldamapads Wrote: Andy Dalton has only been good when he's been protected, but it is not different for any other QB.

We need a solid line period.

Second, the defense was torched repeatedly on third down because the LBs couldn't cover anyone.

We're not drafting QBs, we need OL and LBs.  

Are there some bones to build from, yes.  Can a Superbowl be had without at least some decent FA help?  I have my doubts.

Not being defensive, but would you say he was good last year?  I would.  Was the line good last year?  I would not say so.  

Dalton had it ALL going on...even the last minute drive against pitt to FINALLY beat those MFIGY*(&R(#)(F at home.  But the defense sucked arse and lost the game.  I put 80% of their failures on the defense and defensive coaching, and 20% on offense, due largely to injuries.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 06:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hey, I was going off of the quote in the John Miller thread, where his run blocking grade was 76.something and his pass blocking grade was 56.8ish.  Now, I really don't put two shits worth of stock into PFF numbers, as no one can seem to explain how they come to those numbers.  However, as long as we're using them as out point of reference, how many Guards qualified for ratings last year?

I think Redmond ranked around #54 and Miller was #24.  That is out of roughly 64 starting guards in the league (guessing 2 per team would qualify with enough snaps to be in the rankings).

Redmond was actually pretty solid as a run blocker, but deficient in pass blocking.  That being said, Miller, coming from Buffalo, had a rookie QB (and Nathan Peterman?) that held on to the ball much longer than Dalton.  Not sure about how they calculate the guard's performance there, but it is a much tougher job.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-15-2019, 06:40 PM)jason Wrote: I'm convinced the Gio is a borderline pro bowler if he plays for NE. I think he's the most underutilized guy on the damn team.

Absolutely is...and consequently (not his fault) the most overpaid player on the team relative to his performance.  Need Gio and Mixon to both be on the field this year and use them both....a lot!

[t3r3e3]

This post summed up what most know on here: The right side of the Oline, the LB corps, and depth at S,CB, TE, and DT are the obvious needs. It’s also true the Bengals have done a decent job of drafting, albeit with a collective subpar effort over the past 3 seasons. However...

The organization’s margin for error is far lower that many others. The reason for this is organization philosophy. The Brown Family eschews a willingness to maximize opportunities to challenge for titles for a policy of yearly profit maximization and overhead minimization. Hence, we see many examples of the team panned for petty frugality. One example is an absolute distaste for FA, and for lowballing impending FA’s that we’re quality draftees. This mindset runs counter to many successful orgs in the league, including more successful members of the AFC North. It also trickles down through the organization. Coaches see it, as do players. It’s hard to overcome lack of drive at the top and consistently put together a high quality team.

[THE PISTONS]

The team has the high end talent...no doubt about that. Green, Boyd, and Mixon on Offense. Bates, Jackson, Atkins, and Dunlap on Defense.

The thing is, you don't win in the NFL with high end talent alone. You need to not have Bad Starters at too many positions. We had 5-6 Bad starters last year. Now some was injuries like Eifert and Preston Brown. But some weren't. And guess what, guys are going to get injured this year too. Every year guys do. You need to have depth.

IF we could upgrade LB and the Offensive Line up to league average, we'd be a Playoff Team fairly easily.

That's my complaint about signing Hart at that price. He's not league average. He's a Bad Starter. Uzomah is below average...so hopefully we can upgrade him. Our offense was VERY dynamic when we had Eifert starting, then as soon as he got hurt...it was all downhill.

Too many times fans get seduced looking at the top of a roster. The middle is where you win or lose games.

This John Miller signing is nice. I'd say he's a league average Guard which is fine. Boling is above average to good, so we're set at Guard.

Now we need Glenn to play above average to good next year which he's capable of. Last year he played below average.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-16-2019, 09:43 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think Redmond ranked around #54 and Miller was #24.  That is out of roughly 64 starting guards in the league (guessing 2 per team would qualify with enough snaps to be in the rankings).

Redmond was actually pretty solid as a run blocker, but deficient in pass blocking.  That being said, Miller, coming from Buffalo, had a rookie QB (and Nathan Peterman?) that held on to the ball much longer than Dalton.  Not sure about how they calculate the guard's performance there, but it is a much tougher job.  

I asked how many Guards qualified for ratings, because we all know that 64 begin the year as starters, but many others get significant playing time due to injuries, poor performance by the original starter, etc.  I'm thinking that the actual number of Guards qualifying to be rated has to be up near 100.

[*bfine32*]

Rep to the OP. I think a good inline TE might be a weakness as big as LB. Even if we bring back Eifert neither is a prototypical inline TE.

[McC]

(03-15-2019, 06:40 PM)jason Wrote: I'm convinced the Gio is a borderline pro bowler if he plays for NE. I think he's the most underutilized guy on the damn team.

I agree and I think we'll see a lot more out of him this year.

[Luvnit2]

We had a great start to the year when healthy record wise. I see a lot of emphasis on the offense, yes our OL was not good. But our offense when healthy produced better than our defense when healthy.

If we want to be great, we need a top 10 defense minimum, but preferably a top 5 defense. We have a log way to go to improve on defense starting with we need a DL capable of better run support. They do a weak LB group no favors allowing RB's to get down hill on us, we rarely have DL tackles for loss.

The LB group is horrible, Burfict used to be great when on the field. Now, he looks slow and out of shape and misses angles and tackles. He is a shell of the great LB he once was. The CB's are average, they struggle in man to man coverer age and do not tackle well in space.

I think we have very good safety play overall that will get better as Bates get more experience.

Overall, we need Jackson to become a ball hawk like he was in college. We need to add speed and better instinct LB's. I think we need 1 mammoth run stopping DL to play alongside Geno, Billings is an OK back up, but not the answer.

On offense, we need depth at WR. A guy like Core needs to be able to step in and be competitive at WR when guys get hurt, not just be a good ST player. We were decimated at TE and need to rebuild that group. The OL needs Hart to get much better and hopefully Miller helps the right side of the line get much better in 2019.

Yes, we have some talent. But so does every NFL team, we just think our guys are better because they are our guys. AJ is great, but not if he can't stay healthy. He makes too much money to miss 4 to 6 games a year.

So, can the Bengals add a few pieces and be better in 2019? I have my concerns as I have expressed, but I hope I am wrong, I hope we stay a lot healthier if nothing else to eliminate that excuse, but hopefully to get us back to and win a playoff game.

[THE PISTONS]

Even when we were winning early last year, the defense was bad. That was a constant last year...pretty much all season.

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2019, 11:21 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote:  AJ is great, but not if he can't stay healthy. He makes too much money to miss 4 to 6 games a year.

Good thing he has only missed as many as 4 games twice in his 8 year career.

[Luvnit2]

(03-16-2019, 11:31 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Even when we were winning early last year, the defense was bad. That was a constant last year...pretty much all season.

I agree, but it seems most fans want to focus on offense first. I think we need to address the defense and the talent level first.