Trade Idea involving Jets

[fredtoast]

So let me get this straight.  The biggest mistake the Bengals ever made was letting a 36 year old OT leave in free agency and try to draft a replacement.  But now everyone wants us to trade a 32 year old QB and/or WR because it is so simple to just draft replacements just as good.

Since Dalton came into the league in 2011 there have been 24 QBs taken in the first round.  Only 7 have a higher career passer rating than Andy.

Since Green was drafted in 2011 there have been 30 WRs taken in the first round.  19 of those 30 have averaged less than 50 receiving yards per games.

And these numbers are just FIRST ROUND PICKS.  It gets even tougher to find good players the later you go in the draft.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-09-2019, 12:53 PM)Shouldamapads Wrote: This is actually a better idea, get Lee and bolster the defense with Josh Allen or Devin White and maybe you make a case for trading up and walking away from Green.

I love AJ and everything he stands for, so personally I hate the thought.  That said, whatever makes the team better is what the management should do.  

I still stand behind NOT drafting a QB first round.  Keep Andy, protect him and he's one of the best.

Though I agree with you about Dalton, do you think the Bengals can field a competitive team if they pay AJ $30 million per year and Green close to $20 million?  Because that is what their contracts would be shaping up to be.  It sounds insane, but it is a matter of when QBs come due for the contract, not so much that Cousins is better than Piggy, etc.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-09-2019, 05:17 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The problem I have with this scenario is that Haskins may be there at 11.  If not, the Bengals can grab Jones in round 2 or Stidham in round 3-4.  Bengals can get Wilkins a stud DT next to Geno, or Taylor to be RT for next 10 years, or maybe White or Hockenson TE.  I say no.  

AJ is getting older.  He is one of the good guys.  I do think the Bengals move on from him.   I cannot see them extending Green or Dalton contracts given the new coaching staff.

I would be willing to wager a bottle of Jack Daniels that Haskins is gone by pick #11.  

Again, everyone, the reason I brought this up is as follows:

-It addresses the LB position with an EXPERIENCED former First round pick.  The draft after Haskins would be wide open.  

-It allows two full years (barring injury or team in the shitter) for Haskins to develop behind Dalton

- It allows for a HUGE purge in salary that will be due to AJ and Andy, the former of which has started to show some injury history.  This would allow for free agency signings to put the team over the top and make a serious run. And stop being so cynical that the Bengals wouldn't know what to do with the money.  It's not 1990.

And since someone suggested needing more, maybe the Jets would throw in next year's second rounder as a conditional (based on AJ's performance....as high as a 2nd, as low as a 4th).

[BengalsRocker]

(04-09-2019, 06:17 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Though I agree with you about Dalton, do you think the Bengals can field a competitive team if they pay AJ $30 million per year and Green close to $20 million?  Because that is what their contracts would be shaping up to be.  It sounds insane, but it is a matter of when QBs come due for the contract, not so much that Cousins is better than Piggy, etc.  

If they keep doing what they're doing then why does it matter?

It's not my money, and they don't spend it properly anyways when they have those two on lower salaries.

If we didn't have the lousy track record of this front office roster bolstering moves.  I'd consider you thoughts...  but it is what it is.

Being competitive and falling flat on their faces is only slightly better than not being competitive to me personally.

I mean we used to be able to walk around and say "At least we're not the Browns and year in and out we're not bottom dwellers."

Not to get too much into that certain subject, but the best satisfaction I've had with this franchise is knocking the Steelers & Ravens out of the playoffs occasionally.

The rest of the time they just break my damn heart.

That's kinda sad.

My point is my confidence level is way down.  The saying "One in the hand is better than two in the bush." comes to mind.

AJ is an elite WR(especially for our kind of team)that most draft experts would have bet their house to be a surefire NFL wide receiver and Dalton is kind of dumb luck, because even though he hasn't won in the post-season I could truly see this team floundering with QB picks just like the Browns did.

Watching Dalton I feel like he could be average/below average or play like Russell Wilson and be good enough to win in the post-season or SB.

The whole team pretty much laid an egg under Marvin for so many years it makes things so much cloudier in my opinion.

[SunsetBengal]

I really don't think that it would take a player being involved, in order to attain Derron Lee via. trade. He just wasn't what the Jets were looking for in a franchise LB. They spent the money on Mosely, and now just want to quietly move on from Lee. I'm thinking that a late pick this year, and a conditional pick next year should make it workable.

[BengalChris]

(04-09-2019, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So let me get this straight.  The biggest mistake the Bengals ever made was letting a 36 year old OT leave in free agency and try to draft a replacement.  But now everyone wants us to trade a 32 year old QB and/or WR because it is so simple to just draft replacements just as good.

Since Dalton came into the league in 2011 there have been 24 QBs taken in the first round.  Only 7 have a higher career passer rating than Andy.

Since Green was drafted in 2011 there have been 30 WRs taken in the first round.  19 of those 30 have averaged less than 50 receiving yards per games.

And these numbers are just FIRST ROUND PICKS.  It gets even tougher to find good players the later you go in the draft.

Who exactly is everyone?

I don't see many everyones in this thread.

[motoarch]

(04-09-2019, 06:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Is he better than Kirk Cousins?  I would argue yes, and Cousins just set the bar at nearly $30 million per year.  

Kirk cousins wasn't referenced in the quote so it's not related to my point.  He named MVP leave QBs and SB winners.


However since you asked I'll given you my two cents.

No I don't think he's better and I think he's way over paid.  Flacco was over paid to after he won a SB and look how that turned out.  Just because someone paid to much for him means it should set a precedent.  Infact it should be seen as a warning to other franchise.  To the point that the person fredtoat was disputing look at what some teams are doing with rookie contract QBs and the success they are having building around them.  yes the old guard like Brees and Brady are holding there own against mahomes and Geoff but Andy Dalton is not Tom Brady.

I've been a Dalton supporter for a long time and he's a great person but it may be time to move on.   

[Bryan]

Weakening our offense to maybe improve the defense is like using a hammer on your foot because it might help your shoulder pain. If we can get him without trading AJ, cool. If not, no way.

[Bengalitis]

(04-09-2019, 07:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I posted a link to an article about the Jets looking to trade their LB Derron Lee under "Free Agency", but wasn't sure how many of you would see it there and I wanted to float an idea:

Trade AJ Green to the Jets and swap first round picks.  The Jets get the WR they need and they already have their QB.  The Bengals get a LB that opens up the draft to them and they select Dwayne Haskins at #3 overall.  

Not having to sign AJ and Dalton to their next huge contracts opens up the Bengals to have all kinds of financial flexibility to use with a low dollar amount on the QB position for five years (Dalton is only being paid $17 million per and I think that was an average....his cap hit could be less).  

I looked at this deal and thought that the Bengals might not be getting enough for Green, but then realized that avoiding his next contract as well as Dalton's would be the real benefit here.  Aside from Brady (who always takes less to improve those around him) the most competitive teams of late have almost always been a QB in the rookie contract.  Look at Seattle's team before and after Wilson's 2nd contract.  

I know everyone here loves AJ, but I honestly believe this deal would make our team better and...it would sell tickets.  

What say you?

I like it, it is risky and in the long term, beneficial for the team financially. The risk is being able to find the right replacements. We had 3 LOSING seasons with AJ, Dalton and Mixon AND Boyd who are excellent players. Yes, many factors were the cause but gotta plan for the future now. We were able to do it with Carson and Chad.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(04-09-2019, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So let me get this straight.  The biggest mistake the Bengals ever made was letting a 36 year old OT leave in free agency and try to draft a replacement.  But now everyone wants us to trade a 32 year old QB and/or WR because it is so simple to just draft replacements just as good.

Since Dalton came into the league in 2011 there have been 24 QBs taken in the first round.  Only 7 have a higher career passer rating than Andy.

Since Green was drafted in 2011 there have been 30 WRs taken in the first round.  19 of those 30 have averaged less than 50 receiving yards per games.

And these numbers are just FIRST ROUND PICKS.  It gets even tougher to find good players the later you go in the draft.

So? We're gluttons for punishment. What do you want us to say?

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-09-2019, 09:10 PM)Bryan Wrote: Weakening our offense to maybe improve the defense is like using a hammer on your foot because it might help your shoulder pain. If we can get him without trading AJ, cool. If not, no way.

You are seemingly not seeing the big picture here....nor are a lot of the posters based on the responses.  

The Bengals would lose AJ Green, and the #11 pick in the draft.  They would also effectively knock somewhere in the range of $20 million per year off their cap number by not re-signing him.

They gain a former first-round LB that has NFL Experience and has improved every year he has played.  Let's not forget that until last year he played with one of the worst offenses always giving the ball back to the opponent.  Lee was rated 72.4  by Pro Football Focus with "Good" rankings in both run and pass defense.  The #24 overall LB.  And this player is a known, not a crapshoot like the draft.  

They also gain the #3 overall pick in the draft, which would be spent on Dwayne Haskins, who would have two years to learn behind Dalton and possibly squeeze him out of the job, making Dalton a potential trade piece next season.  The Bengals would have a rookie QB under contract for five years and avoid paying what will surely be close to $30 million per year for Dalton.  

I agreed with an earlier post that the Bengals would need more and suggested a conditional 2020 pick that is based on AJ's performance/health in 2019 that would be as high as a 2nd, but only as low as a 4th.  

Say it happened:  The Bengals would likely surely target an OT in the second round and then potentially go after a WR in the third.  They would have more cap space than likely any team in the NFL heading in to the 2020 season and could go after a FA WR, OT, or other position that screams for an upgrade under Taylor's new units.

I love Dalton and Green as much as anyone, if not more especially when it comes to Dalton.  However, I see a lot of the Votto and Bruce Reds of a few years ago.  Those two contracts so handcuffed the team that unless they got lucky with some young drafted talent, their roster had some huge holes in it.  Even with the cap number climbing, I fear that signing Green and Dalton will leave us stuck in the mud, rarely above a .500 team.  I hope I am wrong, because I really doubt that the Bengals would trade Green.  They kept a turd like Maualuga because the fans seemed to like him.  

[fredtoast]

Now I am getting really confused.

We have to get rid of our own proven players so we can have enough money to sign free agent proven players drafted by other teams?  Is that the plan?

Because I don't see ANY succesful teams that have all their players on rookie contracts.

First people say we have to spend more oney in free agency on proven players to get better, but now it seems thay want to get rid of all the proven players already on the roster.  Seems like just shuffling players around without getting any better.

[Catmandude123]

The only teams that would even consider trading for AJ is a team that is in a win now mode. Giving up future talent to get a high priced and possibly over the hill player is a total gamble. Those who believe you could get a first rounder for AJ are homers who don't see things realistically. AJ will be paid by the Bengals for what he has done in the past for them. A new team would have to realize they would break the bank for a short term rental and take the risk of his ever increasing injuries.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-10-2019, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am getting really confused.

We have to get rid of our own proven players so we can have enough money to sign free agent proven players drafted by other teams?  Is that the plan?

Because I don't see ANY succesful teams that have all their players on rookie contracts.

First people say we have to spend more oney in free agency on proven players to get better, but now it seems thay want to get rid of all the proven players already on the roster.  Seems like just shuffling players around without getting any better.

AJ Green and Andy Dalton are heading toward their THIRD contract.  Derron Lee is 23 years old and has two years remaining on his rookie deal, so they are a different class of "proven".  

And Dalton and Green are "proven", but in two years will cost in excess of $50 million combined.  I just don't think they are worth that.  So, I tried to come up with a scenario to improve our current LB corps (it does that) and also allow the Bengals to draft a develop their QB of the future.  

The savings of those two contracts would allow for some key FA activity that might be able to put the Bengals over the top.  I want them to win a Super Bowl more than anything.  I just don't see how what they are facing in those two contracts will help them do that.  

I am also a big fan of Haskins, and would think he could make a big difference and will be an outstanding pro.  Many will disagree with that, but that is how I see him. 

You (potentially) upgrade QB and have two years to groom him (or one if he looks ready to go and trade Dalton for ???), you upgrade the LB corps, you save $50 million on contracts for two players in two years that could be applied to FA to help further improve the team.  Boyd can move outside and you can draft a new slot WR.  I like Andy Isabella from Massachusetts in the 3rd round.  

And why so assbaggy?  Can't we float ideas on things like this without getting our panties in such a wad?  You can disagree, and make counterpoints, but RELAX, Fred....life is too short.   

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2019, 05:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: And Dalton and Green are "proven", but in two years will cost in excess of $50 million combined.  I just don't think they are worth that. 

Based on current contracts they would each have to be the second highest player at their position to demand $50 million.  No way in hell they are going to cost that much.  And if you say inflation will drive up the costs that much then that means the salary cap will go up just as much.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-10-2019, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on current contracts they would each have to be the second highest player at their position to demand $50 million.  No way in hell they are going to cost that much.  And if you say inflation will drive up the costs that much then that means the salary cap will go up just as much.

Kirk Cousins got $30 million GUARANTEED.  AJ Green will command close to $20 I would think...based on Odell's most recent contract.  And you could have Haskins for around $32 million over 5 years.  You do the math.  And Haskins might be an improvement, and AJ is awesome, but he is also 30 and has had a recent run of injury problems.  I think the offense would do great with Boyd moving outside, drafting a slot WR like I mentioned in Andy Isabella (phone booth quicks and great separation) and Ross on the other side.  This offense also has Mixon and Gio, not to mention Uzo and Eifert.

Again, I love Dalton and Green, but I honestly believe this would be a greater chance to win it all.  

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2019, 05:45 PM)SHRacerX Wrote:   And you could have Haskins for around $32 million over 5 years.  You do the math. 

Over the last 5 years NFL teams have recorded 52 season with at least 10 wins.  Only 15 of those 52 had QBs in the first four years of their career.  So you do the math.

You think Haskins will be an upgrade, but the odds are against that.  Only 7 of the 24 QBs taken in the first round since 2011 have a better career passer rating than Dalton.

[Catmandude123]

(04-10-2019, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last 5 years NFL teams have recorded 52 season with at least 10 wins.  Only 15 of those 52 had QBs in the first four years of their career.  So you do the math.

You think Haskins will be an upgrade, but the odds are against that.  Only 7 of the 24 QBs taken in the first round since 2011 have a better career passer rating than Dalton.

That means we would have a 29% chance of a 10 win season in the next four years? They have gone the last three without winning more than seven. But WTH lets just keep all our old players and forget  the fact they have gone downhill since  2015. Hopefully Zac Taylor can drag them into the future while the fans are kicking and screaming.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2019, 08:58 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote:  But WTH lets just keep all our old players and forget  the fact they have gone downhill since  2015.

The fact that you have to make up a strawman (keep ALL our old players) proves that you can not argue with what I really said (keep our BEST players).

That's pretty weak.

[Hoofhearted]

Can someone help me understand why the Jets would do this trade? I'm still having a hard time figuring that out. Odell fetched a first, third and Peppers. Cooper got a first, but he's 24 years old. I think Amari is the closest example of what we can use as a gauge. But he also doesn't have a string of injuries, and, of course, is 6 years younger than AJ while also making 1.2 mil less. So I think we can safely say that AJ would probably not fetch a first round pick from most teams. Now add us receiving Lee and Moving up 8 spots in the draft order to the top 3? Just seems like highway robbery for the Bengals.