Player Bias

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2019, 06:01 PM)TopSix Wrote: It is worth noting how bad Billy Price was last year. 


As the most 'NFL ready' of the 2018 Drafted Centers, he really was awful when he played last year. 


They dont stand a chance in 2019 without him playing at a near pro bowl type level.  

He couldn't workout in the 2018 offseason because he was recovering form injury, and he was injured in the second game of the season.  And he only allowed 1.5 sacks.  He was far from good, but I would not say "really awful".

[Whatever]

(08-08-2019, 03:00 PM)pally Wrote: Centers have a different development arc than wide receivers.  With rare exceptions, centers take several years to reach their potential since the position is so different from college to pro.  There is just so much to learn with calling the OL blocking assignments, centering with the QB under him, not in the shotgun, and the added speed, strength, and defensive schemes coming at him.  Add in Price's injuries last year and he lost development time his rookie season.  John Ross is in season 3 with some of the same issues each season.  He has problems in some of the basic skills of a WR...he drops way too many passes, he runs wrong routes, and he gives up on plays.  You expect a receiver to catch passes he touches when he enters the league.

C's do have a steep learning curve, no doubt.  However, if you're drafting a C in the 1st, he better be a plug and play quality starter on day 1 like an Alex Mack or Pouncey.  You can get C's to give time to develop to in the later rounds.  I think Price will develop, but he did not live up to expectations in year 1.

Everyone keeps saying Ross has the same issues in year 3, but we haven't seen him play in year 3, so how do those people know that, exactly?  We hardly saw him in year 1.  

I have high hopes for both Ross and Price, but the reality is a lot of people have been screaming for a C in the 1st and more Ohio State guys for years.  If the 1st round C from Ohio State turns out to be a bust, those people look mighty foolish.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2019, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Price was a rookie.  Ross was 2nd year.

Price was a starter.  Ross was not. (until green was injured)

Price missed twice as many games as Ross due to injury.

Everyone knows the #3 WR is a starter in today's NFL, fred.  If we're comparing apples to apples, Ross had to actually earn his playing time.  Price just walked in and was handed the starting job despite being outplayed by his backup.  

[J24]

I think both players will be good this year.

[*psychdoctor*]

To the OP, a few things...

Firstly, Price was drafted from THE Ohio State University and many (absolutely not all) Bengal fans are Buckeye fans, hence, prejudice to support Price.

Secondly, different expectations for different roles a player has on the team. WR is a skilled set role, OL is a grunt in the trenches. It has been stated by Lap and others that when an OL player's name is called, it is usually due to a mistake or a penalty. OL players are rarely noticed for the "good" plays they make. They tend to be unsung heroes. Conversely, there is a different lens to view skilled set players, especially at QB. Similarly, WR are "expected" to catch the ball and score. Skilled set players are visible heroes or visible failures. Their performance stands-out and is magnified to the average fan. When a WR makes spectacular catches they are somewhat glorified, but when they may spectacular drops, they are vilified. Price and Ross have different roles and different expectations.

Finally, like others have previously stated, Ross was viewed as a bad draft choice from the start due to his injury issues, maybe due to the perception that there were better players available to fit the needs of the team (like you stated in OJ Howard). Price was viewed (at the time) as the BPA at a position of need. Negative first impressions are hard to shake unless the player exceeds expectations. It is safe to conclude that Ross has not succeeded expectations up to this point.

I personally want both Ross and Price to succeed expectations this year.

[McC]

The biggest difference is that a lot of people take the shortcomings of Ross personally, like he did something to them. Never seen so much anger directed at a guy in my whole history as a Bengal fan. He's been rooted against since day one.

So far at least, no one has actively been rooting against Price. But hey, give it time.

Bengal fans turn on people in the blink of an eye and no amount of logic or common sense will ever change their minds. It's a constitutional right of today's fan to hate and complain about anything and everything. Today's fan acts like he's a stock holder in the organization or the owner of the company. And then, once they get on something, they feel the need to repeat it seven million times, hourly, daily, incessantly.

[Brownshoe]

I think it's because Ross is more visible. Most people dont pay attention to OL, and only really notice when they do really bad. If Ross runs a wrong route, drops a ball, quits on a route, ect ect it's way more noticeable. I'm not a huge fan of Ross, but I didnt care for the pick when we made it. I'm still hopeful for Price since he was injured and it was his rookie year. That doesnt mean I'll give him a pass forever though.

[*jason*]

(08-08-2019, 04:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: At the time, Ross was expected to be the guy to extend the field and open up underneath routes for the other receivers. I don't think that was quite a luxury as some think.

As for those who thought the Bengals should have drafted Mahomes, well...I'm sorry but I don't remember seeing a single mock draft or thread on this site wanting the Bengals to draft Mahomes. Any QB being discussed on this MB was Trubisky vs Watson. Mahomes was near-universally thought of as the 3rd QB in the class.

FWIW, I wanted OJ Howard, as I was expecting/wanting the Bengals to prep for Eifert's departure in FA after the 2017 season.

OJ was my guy too.

[*SHRacerX*]

All I know is the needle is pointing up for both players, regardless of what hate is spewed in their direction.

[Au165]

For me it's because one guy is going into year 3 and the other is year 2, pretty simple.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2019, 07:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Everyone knows the #3 WR is a starter in today's NFL, fred.  If we're comparing apples to apples, Ross had to actually earn his playing time.  Price just walked in and was handed the starting job despite being outplayed by his backup.  

Erickson out performed Ross by quite a bit last year but Ross was handed the position in fornt of him.  Alex had a 69% catch rate and averaged 5.8 yards per target compared to Ross's 36% and 3.6.  Ross played close to twice as many snaps as Erickson (602 to 364) and had ONE more reception.

Meanwhile Hopkins only played 30 more snaps than Price but gave up twice as many sacks (3.0 to 1.5)

[Whatever]

(08-09-2019, 09:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Erickson out performed Ross by quite a bit last year but Ross was handed the position in fornt of him.  Alex had a 69% catch rate and averaged 5.8 yards per target compared to Ross's 36% and 3.6.  Ross played close to twice as many snaps as Erickson (602 to 364) and had ONE more reception.

Meanwhile Hopkins only played 30 more snaps than Price but gave up twice as many sacks (3.0 to 1.5)

Ross had a 72.73% red zone catch rate, while Erickson only managed 33.33% to go with that massive gap in TD's.  Ross was also primarily used between the 20's to cut the top off the defense to create room for guys to work underneath and Erickson can't be used in that fashion effectively.  Finally, people dog Ross for his catch rate, but fail to take into account that most of his targets between the 20's were on fly routes.  I haven't seen the 2018 data yet, but in 2017 the fly route only had a 25% success rate league wide.  Route selection makes a huge difference in catch %.

Hopkins gave up 3.5 sacks last year, but lined up all over the OL, not just C.  That's an apples to oranges comparison.  

[*ochocincos*]

(08-08-2019, 05:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is the number one reason.

Many fans also dislike Ross because he seems to quit on routes and pull stunts like posting practice video to try and show up the coaches when he actually was not earning playing time.

From what I recall, he only "quit" on a route once, maybe twice? I really don't remember more than that.
Posting the practice video was an unprofessional move, but I don't think the intention was to be malicious. I think Ross was getting tired of being hounded by fans on social media and just wanted to try to show it wasn't fully because of what people thought.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2019, 09:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Erickson out performed Ross by quite a bit last year but Ross was handed the position in fornt of him.  Alex had a 69% catch rate and averaged 5.8 yards per target compared to Ross's 36% and 3.6.  Ross played close to twice as many snaps as Erickson (602 to 364) and had ONE more reception.

Meanwhile Hopkins only played 30 more snaps than Price but gave up twice as many sacks (3.0 to 1.5)

Typical post of why sometimes you make me angry Fred.

Lets pick and choose stats and even leave out TD's why don't we?

(08-09-2019, 09:52 AM)Whatever Wrote: Ross had a 72.73% red zone catch rate, while Erickson only managed 33.33% to go with that massive gap in TD's.  Ross was also primarily used between the 20's to cut the top off the defense to create room for guys to work underneath and Erickson can't be used in that fashion effectively.  Finally, people dog Ross for his catch rate, but fail to take into account that most of his targets between the 20's were on fly routes.  I haven't seen the 2018 data yet, but in 2017 the fly route only had a 25% success rate league wide.  Route selection makes a huge difference in catch %.

Hopkins gave up 3.5 sacks last year, but lined up all over the OL, not just C.  That's an apples to oranges comparison.  

Thank you.

BTW, i think both of these guys will have a good to great year barring injuries (knock on wood).

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2019, 12:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Typical post of why sometimes you make me angry Fred.

Lets pick and choose stats and even leave out TD's why don't we?

Ross's success in the red zone was clearly not due to any special skill.  Instead they must have been based on favorable match ups against red zone defenses.

If they were due to any special skill then that skill would have worked over the entire field.  In fact any special skill would have worked BETTER between the 20's where offensive players have more room to maneuver.

[McC]

(08-09-2019, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ross's success in the red zone was clearly not due to any special skill.  Instead they must have been based on favorable match ups against red zone defenses.

If they were due to any special skill then that skill would have worked over the entire field.  In fact any special skill would have worked BETTER between the 20's where offensive players have more room to maneuver.

You can't say that without knowing how many times he was used on that type of pattern between the twenties.  I watched every game and my answer to that would be never to rarely.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2019, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ross's success in the red zone was clearly not due to any special skill.  Instead they must have been based on favorable match ups against red zone defenses.

If they were due to any special skill then that skill would have worked over the entire field.  In fact any special skill would have worked BETTER between the 20's where offensive players have more room to maneuver.

So you are saying Ross's quickness in short space is not a special skill?

The guy has always been a red zone nightmare for Defenses and we saw this last season.

He just was dropping passes too much, quit on a couple routes and was not used correctly except in the Red Zone.

Expect this to change under Taylor and for Ross to make catches over the entire field this season barring injury.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-09-2019, 01:00 PM)McC Wrote: You can't say that without knowing how many times he was used on that type of pattern between the twenties.  I watched every game and my answer to that would be never to rarely.

Just on memory, they seemed to use him a lot more vertically between the 20s. Which would drive me crazy and cause me to yell at the TV, "stop running verticals all the time and run him across the middle!". 

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2019, 01:00 PM)McC Wrote: You can't say that without knowing how many times he was used on that type of pattern between the twenties.  I watched every game and my answer to that would be never to rarely.

Ross's average targeted air yards was 14 so for every 20 to 30 yard deep pass there were a few short ones.  He was targeted over 50 times.  I know they were not all deep passes. 

And if Ross's success in the red zone was due to some special skill he would be able to exploit it between the 20's where he has even MORE room to work open.

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2019, 01:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So you are saying Ross's quickness in short space is not a special skill?

I am saying that if his success in the red zone was due to "quickness in short space" then he would also use it between the 20's instead of just in the red zone.