Player Bias

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-09-2019, 06:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Can you provide some breakdown showing Ross number of snaps by route and/or yards downfield? I am having a hard time finding. I have looked across many sites include pro-football-reference, PFF, ESPN, Player Profiler, etc and cannot find.

I have an idea. I have Game pass so i can watch coaches tape from every game last year. I can sit down and chronicle every single route Ross ran. 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-09-2019, 06:13 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I have an idea. I have Game pass so i can watch coaches tape from every game last year. I can sit down and chronicle every single route Ross ran. 

I was hoping there was some secret site that had that collected that I either didn't know about or don't pay for lol

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2019, 06:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 14 yards is a lot. AJs was almost 2 yards less and he's their primary deep target. How do you not understand that?


It's basic math.

I understand basic math just fine.  IN fact I have used it repeatedly to prove my point.

If Ross's average was 14 that means for every 30 yard deep pass he would have to run on average four 10-yard routes to average 14.

I am not denying that Ross ran deep routes, but you seem to be denying that a majority of his routes were mush shorter.

[BengalChris]

(08-09-2019, 05:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How do you know he ran a bunch of wrong routes? How do you know he didn't run the correct route but the ball was under or overthrown? There's evidence of that multiple times in the clip I posted of the Saints game. A deep ball underthrown. A crosser that was thrown too far ahead of Ross.

It's pretty clear Ross and Dalton don't have their timing down and that Dalton struggles with hitting receivers in stride with the deep ball. We've seen the deep ball issues with other receivers with Dalton. The difference is most of the other receivers going deep (like AJ and Marvin Jones) are taller and therefore have better ability to come back to the underthrown ball and high point it. Ross isn't going to out-leap defenders.

Routes are designed to be run in a certain way, not just in a particular line. For example, on an out route (and say the defender has inside leverage) the player is suppose to run the defender inside towards where he defender already is (hopefully getting the defender to turn inside or at the very least get the defender leaning that way), then the WR cuts outside and should be wide open. He might need to run him in a certain speed as he goes up, then cut out and race to a spot where the ball is suppose to be. It can be run wrong a number of different ways, but there is only one right way to run that particular route against a defender with inside leverage.

I've seen him turn the wrong way, ball thrown to his right (as defender is on his left), but he turns left into the defender. Result, ball and Ross are not in the same spot and ball isn't catchable, except maybe by a safety coming in. In that case, he is suppose to edge the defender left, then turn and come right for the ball. That should give him at least two steps on the defender covering him.

But how many times have seen Ross caught up with defenders with the ball in the air? He's not AJ Green who can out jump most defenders and come down with contested balls. Ross needs to create space between him and the defender. With his speed it seems like a no brainer, except it isn't cause he doesn't.

We hear from camp that he has consistency problems. Well, what can that consist of? Clue, it's not running fast. He's not running the routes right or he's not catching it or both.

Why would our QBs suddenly not be able to throw the ball when Ross is the receiver? That makes no sense. There is a case that the QBs don't trust him. But that's still on him for not gaining their trust in practice. You can blame Dalton all you want, or Lewis, but the evidence just doesn't bear out when you look at the history of WRs who have played for Lewis and played with Dalton.

210 yards in 16 games over two years for a top 10 WR pick is bad.

 

[BengalChris]

(08-09-2019, 06:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 14 yards is a lot. AJs was almost 2 yards less and he's their primary deep target. How do you not understand that? If they were running Ross underneath, like they should, his average would be much lower. 

It's basic math.

The difference between 14 yards and 12.7 yards is about 4 feet. You are bringing up 4 feet as an excuse for Ross' poor catch percentage? Think about it. Four feet!

[Socal Bengals fan]

For rookies it’s usually harder playing inside positions like Oline than outside wide receiver, DBs. I still have Hope for Price.

[GreenCornBengal]

We should have taken LaQuon Treadwell or Mike Williams....

Oh wait....

The complaints on Ross gets old. Has he done well? no. Is he un-salvagable? NO! He can still become a good player.

You guys LOVE Tyler Boyd, but his first two years weren't anything to write home about (especially year 2, where a lot of you guys would have shipped him away for a few picks).

He is on the 2019 Bengals, and will get his chances. Discussing his previous 2 years just gets OLD. If he doesn't perform this year, then I'll join you, but until he messes up this year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-09-2019, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I understand basic math just fine.  IN fact I have used it repeatedly to prove my point.

If Ross's average was 14 that means for every 30 yard deep pass he would have to run on average four 10-yard routes to average 14.

I am not denying that Ross ran deep routes, but you seem to be denying that a majority of his routes were mush shorter.

It's because i don't believe the majority of his routes were shorter. 

I will say it's entirely possible that he ran some hooks or curls that were out of the picture of the camera but i can't really remember many crossing routes, if any at all. I do though remember more than a few go routes where passes were attempted his way. 

I was actually only half kidding before when i said i could watch games to see every route he ran. 

All that said, 14 yards per target is a large number for a guy like Ross. Not so much so for guys like Jones and Green though. 

[McC]

(08-09-2019, 01:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ross's average targeted air yards was 14 so for every 20 to 30 yard deep pass there were a few short ones.  He was targeted over 50 times.  I know they were not all deep passes. 

And if Ross's success in the red zone was due to some special skill he would be able to exploit it between the 20's where he has even MORE room to work open.

He does have a special skill.  It's called short space quickness.  

[NKURyan]

(08-09-2019, 09:48 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: We should have taken LaQuon Treadwell or Mike Williams....

Oh wait....

The complaints on Ross gets old. Has he done well? no. Is he un-salvagable? NO! He can still become a good player.

You guys LOVE Tyler Boyd, but his first two years weren't anything to write home about (especially year 2, where a lot of you guys would have shipped him away for a few picks).

He is on the 2019 Bengals, and will get his chances. Discussing his previous 2 years just gets OLD. If he doesn't perform this year, then I'll join you, but until he messes up this year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I agree for the most part. I will say that Tyler Boyd actually showed pretty well his rookie year, though he fell off the radar completely for most of his sophomore season.

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-09-2019, 09:48 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The complaints on Ross gets old. Has he done well? no. Is he un-salvagable? NO! He can still become a good player.

You guys LOVE Tyler Boyd, but his first two years weren't anything to write home about (especially year 2, where a lot of you guys would have shipped him away for a few picks).

He is on the 2019 Bengals, and will get his chances. Discussing his previous 2 years just gets OLD. If he doesn't perform this year, then I'll join you, but until he messes up this year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well said and I 100 and 10% agree

If you look up the top 50 WR's of all time I guarantee you'll find a bunch that didn't blow the stat book up in their first two seasons. Let it go and let's see what he does this season.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-09-2019, 08:57 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The difference between 14 yards and 12.7 yards is about 4 feet. You are bringing up 4 feet as an excuse for Ross' poor catch percentage? Think about it. Four feet!

I've not even commented on his catch percentage. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-09-2019, 09:48 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: We should have taken LaQuon Treadwell or Mike Williams....

Oh wait....

The complaints on Ross gets old. Has he done well? no. Is he un-salvagable? NO! He can still become a good player.

You guys LOVE Tyler Boyd, but his first two years weren't anything to write home about (especially year 2, where a lot of you guys would have shipped him away for a few picks).

He is on the 2019 Bengals, and will get his chances. Discussing his previous 2 years just gets OLD. If he doesn't perform this year, then I'll join you, but until he messes up this year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Didn't Boyd have like 600 yards his rookie season? 

[BengalChris]

(08-09-2019, 09:48 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: We should have taken LaQuon Treadwell or Mike Williams....

Oh wait....

The complaints on Ross gets old. Has he done well? no. Is he un-salvagable? NO! He can still become a good player.

You guys LOVE Tyler Boyd, but his first two years weren't anything to write home about (especially year 2, where a lot of you guys would have shipped him away for a few picks).

He is on the 2019 Bengals, and will get his chances. Discussing his previous 2 years just gets OLD. If he doesn't perform this year, then I'll join you, but until he messes up this year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

What gets old is people blaming Ross' poor play on other people. It is constant dribble. Ultimately, the only one responsible for Ross' performance is Ross himself.

If Ross were a more capable receiver last year, he would have caught more passes. He had plenty of opportunities. It had nothing to do with Marvin Lewis, Andy Dalton or anyone other than John Ross.

In fact, Ross' position coach this year, Bob Bicknell, was his position coach last year. So even if Ross explodes this season all it tells us is that it took him three years to show up.

 

[Whatever]

(08-09-2019, 08:50 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Routes are designed to be run in a certain way, not just in a particular line. For example, on an out route (and say the defender has inside leverage) the player is suppose to run the defender inside towards where he defender already is (hopefully getting the defender to turn inside or at the very least get the defender leaning that way), then the WR cuts outside and should be wide open. He might need to run him in a certain speed as he goes up, then cut out and race to a spot where the ball is suppose to be. It can be run wrong a number of different ways, but there is only one right way to run that particular route against a defender with inside leverage.

I've seen him turn the wrong way, ball thrown to his right (as defender is on his left), but he turns left into the defender. Result, ball and Ross are not in the same spot and ball isn't catchable, except maybe by a safety coming in. In that case, he is suppose to edge the defender left, then turn and come right for the ball. That should give him at least two steps on the defender covering him.

But how many times have seen Ross caught up with defenders with the ball in the air? He's not AJ Green who can out jump most defenders and come down with contested balls. Ross needs to create space between him and the defender. With his speed it seems like a no brainer, except it isn't cause he doesn't.

We hear from camp that he has consistency problems. Well, what can that consist of? Clue, it's not running fast. He's not running the routes right or he's not catching it or both.

Why would our QBs suddenly not be able to throw the ball when Ross is the receiver? That makes no sense. There is a case that the QBs don't trust him. But that's still on him for not gaining their trust in practice. You can blame Dalton all you want, or Lewis, but the evidence just doesn't bear out when you look at the history of WRs who have played for Lewis and played with Dalton.

210 yards in 16 games over two years for a top 10 WR pick is bad.

 

If he constantly ran the wrong routes, he would also run the wrong routes in the red zone.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(08-09-2019, 10:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Well said and I 100 and 10% agree

If you look up the top 50 WR's of all time I guarantee you'll find a bunch that didn't blow the stat book up in their first two seasons. Let it go and let's see what he does this season.

Well year 3 isn’t looking very promising since he’s not even healthy enough to practice. Imagine when there’s contact involve I’m sure you will be injury free.

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-09-2019, 01:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It would be pretty hard for either of them to get below a 49.3 rating...

Yep, everyone clearly hates Ross.....Price, too, I guess but not as much. 

When people say Ross didn't come back after underthrown balls or fight in contested pass situations, they must be holding on to the first images they saw where Ross did that.  I saw him improve.  I saw him get VERY open in 7 Red Zone TDs.  I saw him play in 13 games with very little weapons around him and only be used as a draw in between the 20s, thus limiting his chances.  

You will say that I am just making excuses for Ross....and I guess that I am.  But it doesn't change anything.  I am just trying to get people to see he can still be a HUGE weapon on this team and gives this team something they haven't had before.  I am very excited to see what ZT can do with him.  

Price fought through a VERY early injury and being a foot it likely greatly impacted his play.  I have seen the guy in person last year and this year and he looks different, in a good way.  I thought he looked good last year, but lost some of his training ability with the injury.  He looks like a beats this year and I can't wait for him, either.  

It's ok when people feel the need to take shots at them since they have failed to come close to their expectations.  I just believe there is still a lot of positive to them and they can help our team win.  

[BengalsRocker]

Since you guys are just arguing about how good/bad Ross is.... I'm going to throw something else in about Price.

Our fan base needs Price to be good at C or at least solid and that's the perception.

Ross would've been nice to see add to our offense.

So "Yes" Billy gets more of a pass not only because he's young but we're desperate for him to be good.

All those years of having bad play at Center make us as fans wish for the best and not having to hit the reset button once again.

Price was not only good in College but stellar in his short time and won the Remington.

As stated before, there is Ohio State bias and those people have seen a lot of his play which was dominant.

Someone else mentioned in an earlier post that drafted Centers don't usually start at C and slide over once NFL assimilated.

I actually thought Price should have been plugged in at G while leaving Hopkins at Center for a while.

It still wouldn't have been a bad thing to do so, going into this season but after signing/re-signing other players that's probably not even an option now.

Lastly I'm sorry to the OP that you don't understand why people are harder on Ross than Price at this point.

I guarantee if he stinks up the field this year people will be more apt to tossing him into the "Ogbuehi" bust pile.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-10-2019, 08:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep, everyone clearly hates Ross.....Price, too, I guess but not as much. 

When people say Ross didn't come back after underthrown balls or fight in contested pass situations, they must be holding on to the first images they saw where Ross did that.  I saw him improve.  I saw him get VERY open in 7 Red Zone TDs.  I saw him play in 13 games with very little weapons around him and only be used as a draw in between the 20s, thus limiting his chances.  

You will say that I am just making excuses for Ross....and I guess that I am.  But it doesn't change anything.  I am just trying to get people to see he can still be a HUGE weapon on this team and gives this team something they haven't had before.  I am very excited to see what ZT can do with him.  

Price fought through a VERY early injury and being a foot it likely greatly impacted his play.  I have seen the guy in person last year and this year and he looks different, in a good way.  I thought he looked good last year, but lost some of his training ability with the injury.  He looks like a beats this year and I can't wait for him, either.  

It's ok when people feel the need to take shots at them since they have failed to come close to their expectations.  I just believe there is still a lot of positive to them and they can help our team win.  

That is the thing, most that hate on Ross never had any expectations for him in the first place and hated the pick.

Rooting for both these guys big time.

(08-10-2019, 09:19 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Since you guys are just arguing about how good/bad Ross is....  I'm going to throw something else in about Price.

Our fan base needs Price to be good at C or at least solid and that's the perception.

Ross would've been nice to see add to our offense.

So "Yes" Billy gets more of a pass not only because he's young but we're desperate for him to be good.

All those years of having bad play at Center make us as fans wish for the best and not having to hit the reset button once again.

Price was not only good in College but stellar in his short time and won the Remington.

As stated before, there is Ohio State bias and those people have seen a lot of his play which was dominant.

Someone else mentioned in an earlier post that drafted Centers don't usually start at C and slide over once NFL assimilated.

I actually thought Price should have been plugged in at G while leaving Hopkins at Center for a while.

It still wouldn't have been a bad thing to do so, going into this season but after signing/re-signing other players that's probably not even an option now.

Lastly I'm sorry to the OP that you don't understand why people are harder on Ross than Price at this point.

I guarantee if he stinks up the field this year people will be more apt to tossing him into the "Ogbuehi" bust pile.

Great post. Price if he plays stellar would improve this team probably more than any other player.

Starts from him on out. Think he will grow into this player, sure hoping he will.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2019, 10:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Well said and I 100 and 10% agree

If you look up the top 50 WR's of all time I guarantee you'll find a bunch that didn't blow the stat book up in their first two seasons. Let it go and let's see what he does this season.

I think it's more than blowing up stats. I doubt that Jerry Rice was injured this much in his 1st 2 years and I doubt that Rice looked as lost out there as Ross does.

I doubt that Rice didn't fight for balls.

There's nothing about Ross that indicates future star. Maybe he's salvageable? But, at some point he's going to need to actually practice to improve.

And Rice had 927 yards as a rookie and 1570 yards in Year 2. Steve Largent had 705 yards and 643 yards in his 1st 2 seasons.