Tired of Model model?

[CJD]

The interesting part about that is, while OL is definitely considered a foundation on which to build a franchise, the LB position has, historically, not been considered foundational in the NFL. It's been all about the DL. If your DL can occupy blockers, your LBers should be able to run towards the ball unabated.

It's the same reason that RB has long been considered not a foundation piece. If your OL is good enough, they'll open holes big enough for just about any competent RB to run through. The same was considered for LBers regarding DL (the DL takes up the blockers, opening up lanes for LBers to run through towards the ball carrier).

There's a reason that non-pass rushing LBers going in the top 10 is very rare, with this year being the first time 2 have been taken in the top 10...in a while. I don't know exactly when and if it happened last, but I can't recall a time when it did.

And the Bengals have definitely invested in their DL. So you'd think that would fix their LB problem.

I think the problem is Marvin and his various D Coordinators were completely and utterly incapable of taking any LB prospect and converting them into a competent LB. So even though we've had an above average to fantastic Dline for most of this decade, we have never had a truly dominant defense, because the LBers can't hold even their relatively small amount of water in regards to their responsibilities on the field.

Hopefully, our new coaching staff bucks that trend and finds a way to develop competent and serviceable linebackers for once in the last 20 years of this franchise's history.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 01:28 PM)Joelist Wrote: Jonah Williams is not a whiff. He got injured after we took him - it happens. He’ll be back.

We really don't know what we have in Jonah. I think he should be a fine Pro...but people thought Price would too and he can't beat out Hopkins who was already on the roster.

Missing a full year of development could end up stunting Jonah's growth.

But, I agree with your premise that it's too soon to declare him a miss.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 01:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The interesting part about that is, while OL is definitely considered a foundation on which to build a franchise, the LB position has, historically, not been considered foundational in the NFL. It's been all about the DL. If your DL can occupy blockers, your LBers should be able to run towards the ball unabated.

It's the same reason that RB has long been considered not a foundation piece. If your OL is good enough, they'll open holes big enough for just about any competent RB to run through. The same was considered for LBers regarding DL (the DL takes up the blockers, opening up lanes for LBers to run through towards the ball carrier).

There's a reason that non-pass rushing LBers going in the top 10 is very rare, with this year being the first time 2 have been taken in the top 10...in a while. I don't know exactly when and if it happened last, but I can't recall a time when it did.

And the Bengals have definitely invested in their DL. So you'd think that would fix their LB problem.

I think the problem is Marvin and his various D Coordinators were completely and utterly incapable of taking any LB prospect and converting them into a competent LB. So even though we've had an above average to fantastic Dline for most of this decade, we have never had a truly dominant defense, because the LBers can't hold even their relatively small amount of water in regards to their responsibilities on the field.

Hopefully, our new coaching staff bucks that trend and finds a way to develop competent and serviceable linebackers for once in the last 20 years of this franchise's history.

We typically went after slower, run thumping LB's. The league shifted to speed and guys who can cover.

I think a corollary to your premise is that basically every position on a team has some importance. A good C is just as valuable or nearly as valuable as a good T.

On defense, every spot is pretty key and weaknesses at any position group can sink a team.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2019, 01:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We typically went after slower, run thumping LB's. The league shifted to speed and guys who can cover.

The funny thing is that early on Marvin focused on drafting light, fast LBs like Khalid Abdullah, Landon Johnson, and Caleb Miller.  Even Nate Webster was considered small for a MLB.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 01:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The funny thing is that early on Marvin focused on drafting light, fast LBs like Khalid Abdullah, Landon Johnson, and Caleb Miller.  Even Nate Webster was considered small for a MLB.

I wonder what would have happened IF Odell Thurman stayed out of trouble. He was a pretty awesome LB. Fast and could shed blocks.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2019, 01:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wonder what would have happened IF Odell Thurman stayed out of trouble. He was a pretty awesome LB. Fast and could shed blocks.

Thurman was a little overrated by Bengal fans, but he certainly would have been better than what we had after he was gone. 

He was out of position a lot, and our defense got gashed for huge yardage while he was starting, but he had instincts that can't be taught.  He had potential to be something special.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 01:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sure, everyone likes a genuine bargain, every now and again.  However, the old saying goes "You get what you pay for", for a reason.

Bargain shopping aside, that still doesn't even begin to cover the poor talent evaluation and subsequent whiffing on high round draft picks as a result.

I agree.
I think the big thing with the draft picks was that we all knew what the areas of weakness were that these players had. The coaches/organization thought those weaknesses could be improved (or at least masked) with proper coaching, but either the coaching wasn't good enough or there was no hope of those improvements even with a great coach.

Ogbuehi - Lack of strength/anchor, technique, bad hands. Injured when drafted.
Fisher - Lack of length, strength, run blocking, penalties. 
Dawson - Terrible attitude, discipline. 
Ross - Lack of size, fighting for the ball, multiple big injuries. Injured when drafted. 
Price - Lack of length, lunges, footwork. Injured when drafted. 
Jefferson - Lack of instincts.


What do each of these guys have in common? All have (had) high ceilings due to their elite traits that couldn't be coached, but for one reason or another their weaknesses didn't improve enough to make them a solid starter (yet in the cases of Ross and Price).

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 01:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree.
I think the big thing with the draft picks was that we all knew what the areas of weakness were that these players had. The coaches/organization thought those weaknesses could be improved (or at least masked) with proper coaching, but either the coaching wasn't good enough or there was no hope of those improvements even with a great coach.

Ogbuehi - Lack of strength/anchor, technique, bad hands. Injured when drafted.
Fisher - Lack of length, strength, run blocking, penalties. 
Dawson - Terrible attitude, discipline. 
Ross - Lack of size, fighting for the ball, multiple big injuries. Injured when drafted. 
Price - Lack of length, lunges, footwork. Injured when drafted. 
Jefferson - Lack of instincts. Great size-speed combination.


What do each of these guys have in common? All have (had) high ceilings due to their elite traits that couldn't be coached, but for one reason or another their weaknesses didn't improve enough to make them a solid starter (yet in the cases of Ross and Price).

I think that those of us who follow drafts closely every year could kind of see those trends in the guys you mentioned. (Well...maybe not Price), but the others all had warning signs.

Ced probably wasn't going to get drafted in the 1st Round. He gave up a decent amount of sacks in college too.

Look at this scouting report:

The senior moved to left tackle for 2014. He got off to a strong start in the early portion of the year before hitting a slump. Versus Ole Miss, Ogbuehi was beaten for one sack and gave up a critical hit on Kenny Hill that helped result in a 75-yard pick six. Against Mississippi State, Ogbuehi had a disappointing game as he allowed three sacks. The outing against Alabama was the third-straight game in which Ogbuehi played poorly. He gave up two sacks and multiple other pressures and hits on his quarterback to the Crimson Tide.


Ogbuehi suffered a common problem in those sacks: He was getting in position perfectly, but couldn't sustain his blocks. The reason for his failures was a lack of strength. Sources said that Ogbuehi was playing with a back injury that prevented him from lifting weights, thus he was lacking strength. After that rough stretch, Ogbuehi finished the year playing better and moved around between right tackle to left tackle.

For the NFL,

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015cogbuehi.php#ixzz5yTvrwBi4

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015cogbuehi.php#xApQUAu5U86kmCs5.99

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 01:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We really don't know what we have in Jonah. I think he should be a fine Pro...but people thought Price would too and he can't beat out Hopkins who was already on the roster.

Missing a full year of development could end up stunting Jonah's growth.

But, I agree with your premise that it's too soon to declare him a miss.

The difference is Price had some pretty well-known weaknesses coming into the league, but his strengths (power, aggressiveness) were thought of compensating for those weaknesses until they improved.

Williams didn't really have any weakness coming in aside from length. He was actually the safest OL prospect in the draft.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 01:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think that those of us who follow drafts closely every year could kind of see those trends in the guys you mentioned. (Well...maybe not Price), but the others all had warning signs.

Ced probably wasn't going to get drafted in the 1st Round. He gave up a decent amount of sacks in college too.

Look at this scouting report:

The senior moved to left tackle for 2014. He got off to a strong start in the early portion of the year before hitting a slump. Versus Ole Miss, Ogbuehi was beaten for one sack and gave up a critical hit on Kenny Hill that helped result in a 75-yard pick six. Against Mississippi State, Ogbuehi had a disappointing game as he allowed three sacks. The outing against Alabama was the third-straight game in which Ogbuehi played poorly. He gave up two sacks and multiple other pressures and hits on his quarterback to the Crimson Tide.


Ogbuehi suffered a common problem in those sacks: He was getting in position perfectly, but couldn't sustain his blocks. The reason for his failures was a lack of strength. Sources said that Ogbuehi was playing with a back injury that prevented him from lifting weights, thus he was lacking strength. After that rough stretch, Ogbuehi finished the year playing better and moved around between right tackle to left tackle.

For the NFL,

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015cogbuehi.php#ixzz5yTvrwBi4

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2015cogbuehi.php#xApQUAu5U86kmCs5.99

Yep. I think those that believed Ogbuehi could turn into a great OT thought that adding strength was all he needed to do and was something that could be easily done within a year or two.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-03-2019, 01:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree.
I think the big thing with the draft picks was that we all knew what the areas of weakness were that these players had. The coaches/organization thought those weaknesses could be improved (or at least masked) with proper coaching, but either the coaching wasn't good enough or there was no hope of those improvements even with a great coach.

Ogbuehi - Lack of strength/anchor, technique, bad hands. Injured when drafted.
Fisher - Lack of length, strength, run blocking, penalties. 
Dawson - Terrible attitude, discipline. 
Ross - Lack of size, fighting for the ball, multiple big injuries. Injured when drafted. 
Price - Lack of length, lunges, footwork. Injured when drafted. 
Jefferson - Lack of instincts.


What do each of these guys have in common? All have (had) high ceilings due to their elite traits that couldn't be coached, but for one reason or another their weaknesses didn't improve enough to make them a solid starter (yet in the cases of Ross and Price).

More than just those guys, we also got nothing from Dennard or WJIII in their rookie years.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-03-2019, 02:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: More than just those guys, we also got nothing from Dennard or WJIII in their rookie years.

Kirkpatrick took 3 years.

[THE PISTONS]

I get that 5 years $85 million is overpaying for CJ Moseley...but IF we did that just once and addressed our need at LB...it would boost the spirits of every guy on the team and show that management was committed to winning.

So we save that money, and we overpay Gio. We overpay Hart bidding against ourselves. Then we sign an average guy like Brown.

Might be better off just signing 1 elite player.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-03-2019, 02:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Kirkpatrick took 3 years.

So, what is that, 7 out of the last 10 1st round picks were not full contributors in their 1st season with the team? 


That's more than just "bad luck", that's a definite pattern of failure in drafting. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 02:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: More than just those guys, we also got nothing from Dennard or WJIII in their rookie years.

True.
WJ3 got hurt in camp though, not an injury when drafted.
Dennard was drafted with Jones, Kirkpatrick, and Newman all in front of him.
The Bengals were definitely guilty of drafting 1st round CBs with 2-3 good starters already on the team, which would make it hard for that player to get playing time.

Just like with Ross, the Bengals preemptively draft players sometimes to replace a starter in 2-3 years, therefore not contributing much early on. When Ross was drafted, the Bengals had Green, LaFell, and Boyd as the starting 3.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 02:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, what is that, 7 out of the last 10 1st round picks were not full contributors in their 1st season with the team? 


That's more than just "bad luck", that's a definite pattern of failure in drafting. 

I wouldn't call that a pattern of failure in drafting. It was a strategy that the Bengals had. Rather than draft for immediate need, they drafted future replacements of starters that were aging.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(09-03-2019, 12:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The issue the Bengals keep running into is that they keep trying to get players at a value.
Players who were once good but maybe had a bad year or two, had an injury, etc.

It worked a few years back, mainly under Zimmer and mainly in the secondary - Reggie Nelson, Terence Newman, Pacman Jones, even Burfict to an extent. Not so many examples on the other side of the ball - other than Mixon maybe Cedric Benson (RIP) was the last one on Offense?

But it seems to have been a long while since we bought low on a former 1st round pick. And whilst draft position isn't the be all end all, the talent we've been signing has gradually been dropping in draft pedigree. This this year's free agents - Miller, Jerry were 3rd rounds and Webb 4th round. Last year's was Preston Brown 3rd round and Matt Barkley 4th round. Year before Minter (2nd round); in 2016 it was Dansby (2nd round) and LaFell (3rd round) and you have to go back all the way to 2015 for AJ Hawk for a former 1st rounder. That 2010-2015 when we made the play-offs 5 years in a row we signed a whole slew of former first rounders - the aforementioned Nelson and Pacman Jones (2010), Nate Clements and Kelly Jennings (2011), Newman, Jason Allen, Jamaal Anderson and Manny Lawson (2012) plus in 2011 former 2nd rounders Thomas Howard and Taylor Mays. Not all of them were good or even made it in the end but it put talent on the roster in training camp for a good co-ordinator to make the most of. 

Maybe the issue is less that they've been trying to get players at value but as Tobin's influence has grown they've moved away from such types of reclamation projects and just don't have the high end talent? Maybe they need to go back to buying low?

[*ochocincos*]

(09-03-2019, 02:34 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: It worked a few years back, mainly under Zimmer and mainly in the secondary - Reggie Nelson, Terence Newman, Pacman Jones, even Burfict to an extent. Not so many examples on the other side of the ball - other than Mixon maybe Cedric Benson (RIP) was the last one on Offense?

But it seems to have been a long while since we bought low on a former 1st round pick. And whilst draft position isn't the be all end all, the talent we've been signing has gradually been dropping in draft pedigree. This this year's free agents - Miller, Jerry were 3rd rounds and Webb 4th round. Last year's was Preston Brown 3rd round and Matt Barkley 4th round. Year before Minter (2nd round); in 2016 it was Dansby (2nd round) and LaFell (3rd round) and you have to go back all the way to 2015 for AJ Hawk for a former 1st rounder. That 2010-2015 when we made the play-offs 5 years in a row we signed a whole slew of former first rounders - the aforementioned Nelson and Pacman Jones (2010), Nate Clements and Kelly Jennings (2011), Newman, Jason Allen, Jamaal Anderson and Manny Lawson (2012) plus in 2011 former 2nd rounders Thomas Howard and Taylor Mays. Not all of them were good or even made it in the end but it put talent on the roster in training camp for a good co-ordinator to make the most of. 

Maybe the issue is less that they've been trying to get players at value but as Tobin's influence has grown they've moved away from such types of reclamation projects and just don't have the high end talent? Maybe they need to go back to buying low?

It worked to an extent but would it have been better if the 1st round CB would have been put toward another position with a bigger need and maybe take a mid-round CB instead? We'll never know, but I always thought yes.

It always seems like the team's player acquisitions is for 3 years from now, never for this year.

[bengalguy71]

(09-03-2019, 12:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s definitely been too loyal to Jason Garrett.

Not to mention he fired his HC after back to back championships!

[Shake n Blake]

(09-03-2019, 12:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Stupid Bengals.

They NEVER use high draft picks on OL.

Or trade for high paid starting O-linemen.

Or sign a free agent LB who led the league in tackles.

Or let good interior linemen walk.

Or prioritize skill position players over linemen.

Oh wait.