So...was Marvin holding Ross back?

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 11:24 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Clearly, neither.

Thanks for proving my point.  No matter what Marvin did you would squeal that it was wrong.

We have no idea if Marvin held Ross back.  It could very well be that Ross just worked harder and fixed his problems.  Players improve all the time without getting new coaches.

And how well is Ogbuehi thriving under a new coach?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-12-2019, 11:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving my point.  No matter what Marvin did you would squeal that it was wrong.

We have no idea if Marvin held Ross back.  It could very well be that Ross just worked harder and fixed his problems.  Players improve all the time without getting new coaches.

And how well is Ogbuehi thriving under a new coach?

Oh bs. I don’t “squeal” wrt everything Marvin did. I’ll give him credit for the Burfict’s, Reggie, Nelson’s, etc.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-12-2019, 11:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You don't think Ross ever messed up in games?

You have no problem with him trying to hide an injury form coaches?

Seriously?

Do you really think Ross is the first player to ever try to hide an injury ?

Seriously ?

[*ochocincos*]

(09-12-2019, 11:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving my point.  No matter what Marvin did you would squeal that it was wrong.

We have no idea if Marvin held Ross back.  It could very well be that Ross just worked harder and fixed his problems.  Players improve all the time without getting new coaches.

And how well is Ogbuehi thriving under a new coach?

He was inactive last week.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 12:13 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Do you really think Ross is the first player to ever try to hide an injury ?

Seriously ?

What is your point?

Because other players have done it before Ross should not have been held accountable?

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-12-2019, 12:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What is your point?

Because other players have done it before Ross should not have been held accountable?

I think you know what my point is. You're trying to act like he committed some unforgivable crime. Entered a place players just don't go. Broke a rule that can't be forgiven !

When in fact nearly every player that's ever played the game has done it to one degree or another at some point in their career.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 12:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think you know what my point is. You're trying to act like he committed some unforgivable crime. Entered a place players just don't go. Broke a rule that can't be forgiven !

No I am not saying anything like that at all.

What I am saying is that Ross sucked because he was injured and playing like shit so Marvin was right to bench him.

But you want to complain about Marvin never holding players accountable and at the same time say he should not have held Ross accountable.  He should have played Ross even though he sucked and was injured.

[impactplaya]

I think Ross hid a injury from ML for several reasons
Maybe he felt ML was going to bury him on the
Depth chart no matter how well he did in training
Camp.
Just admitting a injury would have widened the gap
Between him and ML.
You know it goes you get a injury
And the next thing you know your passed up on
The depth chart.with no chance of ascending
Maybe Ross felt a disconnect with him and ML

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-12-2019, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I am not saying anything like that at all.

What I am saying is that Ross sucked because he was injured and playing like shit so Marvin was right to bench him.

But you want to complain about Marvin never holding players accountable and at the same time say he should not have held Ross accountable.  He should have played Ross even though he sucked and was injured.

Fred I don't in any way think Ross was totally innocent. In fact in many ways he was probably his own worst enemy !

But in the same breath I strongly feel Marvin cut him zero breaks. Did nothing, and I mean NOTHING to help him out, work him into the gameplan etc.

ML in many ways had it out for Ross from the beginning.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 01:02 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Maybe he felt ML was going to bury him on the
Depth chart no matter how well he did in training
Camp.

Why would he.  Marvin had been an NFL head coach for 13 years and he had never done anything like that before.  He gave rookies starts and playing time as much as the average NFL head coach.

All of this is just stuff you are making up out of thin air to support your position.  There is no basis in actual facts.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 01:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: But in the same breath I strongly feel Marvin cut him zero breaks. Did nothing, and I mean NOTHING to help him out, work him into the gameplan etc.

ML in many ways had it out for Ross from the beginning.

More claims fabricated out of thin air.

Why would a head coach do things to make it harder for him to win?  No one can ever give me a reasonable answer for that question.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-12-2019, 01:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would he.  Marvin had been an NFL head coach for 13 years and he had never done anything like that before.  He gave rookies starts and playing time as much as the average NFL head coach.

All of this is just stuff you are making up out of thin air to support your position.  There is no basis in actual facts.

I wasn't there and I don't know for sure, it's just an opinion formed from little snippets here, a few words there, and actually watching the games. 

Like 85% or something in there of human communication is nonverbal. It's a guess but I'd say Ross "felt" the tension right from the jump. Just because you say it wasn't so doesn't make it any less speculation or an opinion than mine is.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-12-2019, 11:11 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So did a bum like Cedric Ogbuehi, yet Marvin kept trotting him out there...

He clearly was harder on the kid than he was most players.

Don't forget the special teams dynamo, Cody Core!!!!!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-12-2019, 01:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would he.  Marvin had been an NFL head coach for 13 years and he had never done anything like that before.  He gave rookies starts and playing time as much as the average NFL head coach.

All of this is just stuff you are making up out of thin air to support your position.  There is no basis in actual facts.

There is plenty basis in actual facts. A simple Google search shows it.  Here's a couple articles, there are PLENTY more out there, but my phone is giving me fits.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/05/05/cincinnati-bengals-rookie-playing-time/26840963/

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/2/9/14547480/marvin-lewis-fear-playing-rookies-bengals


https://www.bengals.com/news/taylor-s-opening-day-lineup-sends-a-message


Also, Jessie Bates was the first rookie to start on defense since Rey Maualuga. That's NINE years.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-12-2019, 01:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: More claims fabricated out of thin air.

Why would a head coach do things to make it harder for him to win?  No one can ever give me a reasonable answer for that question.

Because Marvin didn't realize being stubborn in his antiquated ways was making it harder for him to win..... it's why he's unemployed.

[McC]

(09-12-2019, 01:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Fred I don't in any way think Ross was totally innocent. In fact in many ways he was probably his own worst enemy !

But in the same breath I strongly feel Marvin cut him zero breaks. Did nothing, and I mean NOTHING to help him out, work him into the gameplan etc.

ML in many ways had it out for Ross from the beginning.

Bottom line, Zac found the key to unlock the player's potential and Marvin couldn't do that, for whatever reason.

[McC]

(09-12-2019, 01:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: More claims fabricated out of thin air.

Why would a head coach do things to make it harder for him to win?  No one can ever give me a reasonable answer for that question.

It wasn't so much that he was doing things to make it harder for him to win.  It was more like he was running on fumes by then and he was just just plain spent. 

This is not to say he was lazy or didn't care, just that he was at the end of his rope and he had, figuratively speaking, thrown his hands up in despair.  It was written all over his face and it was right there in his demeanor.

His pressers were all but saying, "You think you can do better?"

If John Ross had come along earlier in Marvin's time here, it might have been a totally outcome.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 01:44 PM)Wyche Wrote: There is plenty basis in actual facts. A simple Google search shows it.  Here's a couple articles, there are PLENTY more out there, but my phone is giving me fits.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/05/05/cincinnati-bengals-rookie-playing-time/26840963/

Maybe it would help if you actually read what these articles say instead of just frothing to rip Marvin.


The first one is from may 2105 and it says

Let's take a look around the rest of the AFC using Pro Football Focus' cumulative stat breakdowns beginning in 2011.

For the Bengals Russell Bodine (1,082), Kevin Zeitler (1,077), Dalton (1,056) and Green (915) have been the exceptions as the only rookies to play 900 or more snaps in their first year.

Pittsburgh has not had a single rookie play at least 900 snap.

Like the Bengals, the Baltimore Ravens have had four

New England has not had a single rookie crack the 900-snap plateau, just like Pittsburgh.

Denver has had three.

Indianapolis has also had three.

So what does this say?

It shows that, with a few exceptions, winning teams are looking for players who can play a bit as rookies, but are seen as long-term contributors to keep that team in the playoffs.

And this is what I have always said.  Winning teams depend on rookies less than other teams.
 

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 02:06 PM)McC Wrote: Bottom line, Zac found the key to unlock the player's potential and Marvin couldn't do that, for whatever reason.

Bottom line?  Really?

How is it possible that Adam Thielen went from a total of 20 receptions his first two years to 69 in his third without a new head coach?

And is Zac to blame for Mixon looking so bad?  Joe sure had better numbers when Marvin was coach.

The REAL bottom line is that we do not know why Ross has gotten better.  The people who don't like Marvin will blame him no matter what.

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2019, 01:44 PM)Wyche Wrote: There is plenty basis in actual facts.

Here are the facts (from 2017)

(03-07-2017, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games.  Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team.  Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.

When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much.  Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years.  That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.  

233 players had two seasons with at least 14 starts in their first 3 years.  That is an average of 7.6 per team and the Bengals have had 7.

Only 80 players started at least 14 games in each of their first three seasons.  That is an average of 2.5 per team and the Bengals have had 3.