Why the squabbles among fans of the same team?

[BengalChris]

(09-25-2019, 12:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eh, Marv wasn't the problem in the regular season when not playing in Primetime games or against the Steelers.

0-7 is a problem though, anyway you slice it.



Great post.   



And another great post, well done.

Well, I can't argue with you on the primetime, playoffs and the Steelers. Marv just couldn't get over those.

I've been looking forward to seeing if the new coaching staff would fair better against the Steelers and have had this week's game marked in my mind as a key game for ZT as HC. It can still happen.

 

[*jason*]

(09-25-2019, 11:30 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Well, I can't argue with you on the primetime, playoffs and the Steelers. Marv just couldn't get over those.

I've been looking forward to seeing if the new coaching staff would fair better against the Steelers and have had this week's game marked in my mind as a key game for ZT as HC. It can still happen.

 

Too bad Marvin never got a shot at a toothless Steelers team like this one.

[reuben.ahmed]

The question is why all of us remain fans of a team. What is the purpose of loyalty when the other is not giving you their 100% (think of your job, too). Some live in the city, some don't, some grew up liking them, others didn't. Hard to tell why people become a fan of a team (maybe for the dumbest of reasons if others knew, in my case, it's the tiger). Then we let the team affect our emotions or take up half our weekend and depress us, and question why, lol. What if the paradigm is we just became a fan of players, and not actually a team - oh man would the league lose a lot of money maybe with half filled stadiums. Or maybe get more money, with wearing one team's hat, another team's jersey, and another team's jacket. That really seems like all that matters to the NFL, making money, it's a business. Holding calls are slowing the game down? We'll stop calling them.

Maybe the subconscious thoughts we have are these kids make a lot of money and it doesn't seem like all of them are living up to their potential, which can be aggravating, and none of us know the reason(s) why, and it comes out differently with posters attacking each other. When I'm at games I'm usually the one yelling at Andy while wearing an AJ Green jersey. Not that I hate Andy, but I know he (and others) can do better given certain situations.

As "realistic" as I am (which others view as negativity), I also get irritated with the happy go lucky positiviity that isn't half sarcasm. It may be true the positive people are the ones that can accomplish their goal, but right now the Bengals have accomplished nothing worthwhile in over 30 years. Time to be realistic lol.

[XenoMorph]

(09-26-2019, 12:01 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: The question is why all of us remain fans of a team. What is the purpose of loyalty when the other is not giving you their 100% (think of your job, too). Some live in the city, some don't, some grew up liking them, others didn't. Hard to tell why people become a fan of a team (maybe for the dumbest of reasons if others knew, in my case, it's the tiger). Then we let the team affect our emotions or take up half our weekend and depress us, and question why, lol. What if the paradigm is we just became a fan of players, and not actually a team - oh man would the league lose a lot of money maybe with half filled stadiums. Or maybe get more money, with wearing one team's hat, another team's jersey, and another team's jacket. That really seems like all that matters to the NFL, making money, it's a business. Holding calls are slowing the game down? We'll stop calling them.

Maybe the subconscious thoughts we have are these kids make a lot of money and it doesn't seem like all of them are living up to their potential, which can be aggravating, and none of us know the reason(s) why, and it comes out differently with posters attacking each other. When I'm at games I'm usually the one yelling at Andy while wearing an AJ Green jersey. Not that I hate Andy, but I know he (and others) can do better given certain situations.

As "realistic" as I am (which others view as negativity), I also get irritated with the happy go lucky positiviity that isn't half sarcasm. It may be true the positive people are the ones that can accomplish their goal, but right now the Bengals have accomplished nothing worthwhile in over 30 years. Time to be realistic lol.

if you question you fandom were you ever a fan to begin with?  

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 12:01 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: The question is why all of us remain fans of a team. What is the purpose of loyalty when the other is not giving you their 100% (think of your job, too). Some live in the city, some don't, some grew up liking them, others didn't. Hard to tell why people become a fan of a team (maybe for the dumbest of reasons if others knew, in my case, it's the tiger). Then we let the team affect our emotions or take up half our weekend and depress us, and question why, lol. What if the paradigm is we just became a fan of players, and not actually a team - oh man would the league lose a lot of money maybe with half filled stadiums. Or maybe get more money, with wearing one team's hat, another team's jersey, and another team's jacket. That really seems like all that matters to the NFL, making money, it's a business. Holding calls are slowing the game down? We'll stop calling them.

Maybe the subconscious thoughts we have are these kids make a lot of money and it doesn't seem like all of them are living up to their potential, which can be aggravating, and none of us know the reason(s) why, and it comes out differently with posters attacking each other. When I'm at games I'm usually the one yelling at Andy while wearing an AJ Green jersey. Not that I hate Andy, but I know he (and others) can do better given certain situations.

As "realistic" as I am (which others view as negativity), I also get irritated with the happy go lucky positiviity that isn't half sarcasm. It may be true the positive people are the ones that can accomplish their goal, but right now the Bengals have accomplished nothing worthwhile in over 30 years. Time to be realistic lol.

Fandom is emotional not rational. If it was rational, a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 28+ years would have 0 fans.

That said, the NFL is somewhat like a casino. They keep pulling you back in with the lure that the next hand will be a winner. Teams can go 0-16 and bam you get a slightly easier schedule next year. And you get higher draft picks! While most picks don't help a team win in Year 1, fans are all excited about them. And then there's free agency! Coaching changes!

ie The cycle in the NFL is to build hope.

And basically all but a few cities have teams that atleast occasionally drink from the playoff win chalice. We're just an extreme outlier...as are the Lions.

The Rams had a bad 1990's like us and won a SB in the 2000's with Warner and they hit the right mix again recently...so turnarounds can happen, but you have to change variables. The Bengals were hesitant to even change a HC. I doubt Tobin gets fired any time soon.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-25-2019, 11:32 PM)jason Wrote: Too bad Marvin never got a shot at a toothless Steelers team like this one.

I remember a game, back like 2011 or 12 where they had like two or three top players on O and a couple on D all out and they had lost like 2 of their last 3 and I was thinking we'll blast em this time. 

Nope, they took us out behind the woodshed.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 11:34 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I remember a game, back like 2011 or 12 where they had like two or three top players on O and a couple on D all out and they had lost like 2 of their last 3 and I was thinking we'll blast em this time. 

Nope, they took us out behind the woodshed.

Their dominance defies logic, doesn't it?

[*ochocincos*]

(09-24-2019, 08:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Being a fan of the Bengals is a lot like being a part of a family.  Some teams have large, nationwide fan bases, the Bengals are not one of those teams.  The Bengals have the unsavory tag of being a "small market" team, and therefore our numbers as fans are also reflective of that designation.  It's true, the team is off to a bad start, losing three to open the season, and two of those games very winnable.  This is nothing new to the older Bengal fans.  We have seen the last three head coaches of the team start their careers 0-3.  With that in mind, let's all try to get through this transition together, without making enemies of one another.  


It's a rough time for all fans, both optimistic and pessimistic.  No matter how one chooses to articulate and display their thoughts and feelings about what is shaping up to be a bad season, we do need to keep a few things in mind.  We are all fans of the same team, or else we wouldn't be here.  And with the previous statement being true, fans of other teams are likely happy for our misery, and we need to stay peaceful amongst ourselves.  As Bengal fans, all we have is eachother, nobody else gives a damn about the Bengals but us.

With that in mind, I ask everyone to have a little understanding for how their fellow fans choose to respond to the teams failures.  Don't respond with vitriol, don't make things personal. Maybe show a bit of resilience, toughen up a little bit, let some things roll by.  

Pretty much everyone knew that this year was going to be something we haven't seen in over 15 years. In a way, it's uncharted territory.
There wasn't a lot of certainty with how the season was going to go.
New HC who had never been HC before.
New coordinators.
Some new position coaches.
For the most part, the personnel stayed the same. Most expected the players acquired in the offseason would either not play much (draft) or just be a decent-not-great contributor at best (FA).
A LOT of injuries to key players (primarily on the offensive side of the ball).
Those who were optimistic have seen the scheme, while exciting in some moments, not exciting overall, and therefore are now not as optimistic has before but still trying to be hopeful because it's only three games into the season.
Those who were pessimistic have (somewhat) resorted to the "I told you so" model, trying to find some way to feel better by feeling like they were right.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 03:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pretty much everyone knew that this year was going to be something we haven't seen in over 15 years. In a way, it's uncharted territory.
There wasn't a lot of certainty with how the season was going to go.
New HC who had never been HC before.
New coordinators.
Some new position coaches.
For the most part, the personnel stayed the same. Most expected the players acquired in the offseason would either not play much (draft) or just be a decent-not-great contributor at best (FA).
A LOT of injuries to key players (primarily on the offensive side of the ball).
Those who were optimistic have seen the scheme, while exciting in some moments, not exciting overall, and therefore are now not as optimistic has before but still trying to be hopeful because it's only three games into the season.
Those who were pessimistic have (somewhat) resorted to the "I told you so" model, trying to find some way to feel better by feeling like they were right.

I feel like my biggest disappointments are the schemes. On defense, I didn't expect much with Lou. But, on offense, I've been particularly disappointed. It seems predictable. I expected a lot more misdirection. Sure, there's some, but I expected a lot more to keep the defense off balance and open un the running game for Mixon.

The biggest hope is that the coaches can improve...but I don't know.

And for all I know, maybe the Rams offense would fail too without a good offensive line.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2019, 03:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I feel like my biggest disappointments are the schemes. On defense, I didn't expect much with Lou. But, on offense, I've been particularly disappointed. It seems predictable. I expected a lot more misdirection. Sure, there's some, but I expected a lot more to keep the defense off balance and open un the running game for Mixon.

The biggest hope is that the coaches can improve...but I don't know.

And for all I know, maybe the Rams offense would fail too without a good offensive line.

For sure the Rams wouldn't be as good if they didn't pick up great FAs in Whitworth and Sullivan in 2017. There was no Whitworth-caliber guy available in FA this year for the Bengals to go get. They also had a good veteran LG and outstanding, young RT already on the roster in Saffold and Havenstein go to along with Whitworth and Sullivan.

As for receiving options, they didn't have a single guy hit 1000 yards. Everything revolved around All-Pro Todd Gurley, who put up 2000+ yards from scrimmage. But they did have four good receiving options in Watkins, Woods, Kupp, and Gurley. They hardly used TEs as pass catchers.

Last, they had an All-Pro kicker who hit 95% of his FGs including 6 of 7 from 50+ that year.

People were hoping Taylor to turn the Bengals into the Rams without having near the level of personnel that the Rams had.
Taylor also needs more than a few games before people start considering him a bust as a HC. He's going to go through growing pains, as is his staff and the players. Let's reevaluate in December.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-26-2019, 04:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Taylor also needs more than a few games before people start considering him a bust as a HC. He's going to go through growing pains, as is his staff and the players. Let's reevaluate in December.

Absolutely

It's way, way, way to early to come to any conclusions about what ZT and Co. will end up being.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 04:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: For sure the Rams wouldn't be as good if they didn't pick up great FAs in Whitworth and Sullivan in 2017. There was no Whitworth-caliber guy available in FA this year for the Bengals to go get. They also had a good veteran LG and outstanding, young RT already on the roster in Saffold and Havenstein go to along with Whitworth and Sullivan.

As for receiving options, they didn't have a single guy hit 1000 yards. Everything revolved around All-Pro Todd Gurley, who put up 2000+ yards from scrimmage. But they did have four good receiving options in Watkins, Woods, Kupp, and Gurley. They hardly used TEs as pass catchers.

Last, they had an All-Pro kicker who hit 95% of his FGs including 6 of 7 from 50+ that year.

People were hoping Taylor to turn the Bengals into the Rams without having near the level of personnel that the Rams had.
Taylor also needs more than a few games before people start considering him a bust as a HC. He's going to go through growing pains, as is his staff and the players. Let's reevaluate in December.

The Bills signed 22 free agents and are 3-0 now. Man would a Jordan Hicks and LJ Fort be looking good at LB for us.

Honestly, I don't think our schemes are as good as the Rams and neither are the players. We're like a generic version of them.

Now maybe had we added Saffold, Hicks, and Fort in free agency we're looking good now. Hard to say really.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 04:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Absolutely

It's way, way, way to early to come to any conclusions about what ZT and Co. will end up being.

I'll say this: IF Taylor coached a team that had a great front office, I'd be more confident in him. That management would address roster weaknesses and give him a better chance to succeed.

Taylor won't say this, but I assume he'll realize it too.

[3wt]

(09-26-2019, 12:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Their dominance defies logic, doesn't it?

It's a culture thing.   It takes a lot to change a team culture, workplace culture or family culture.   Culture change is truly rare.

In terms of examples I think of what happened in New England.   It took a new head coach and an injury to their "franchise" QB to jump start the team.  And more than a couple of years combined with that to establish a new and winning culture.  The Steelers were a really bad team before Rooney and Noll changed the culture.

I feel like it's happened successfully on the RAMs team, but took a couple of years.  I think it's happening in San Francisco, but has taken 3 years to take hold.   It happened in Seattle with Pete Carrol, and it happened with Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay but took a long time and was finally cashed in on by Gruden.

I think we have the start of a culture change happening.  But it's going to take some time.  ZT is going to have his own growing pains, and the jury is out on Tobin and the Blackburns.  I have been unhappy with much of the drafting since 2015, but it hasn't been a wash.  And the whole fiasco with the Hart contract has been discouraging.  But despite his growing pains I think ZT was a good hire and that encourages me.

As for this board, we have our own culture.  There are always those who beat a dead horse, become overly negative, vituperative or just plain nasty - including myself.   But by and large I like the culture here and the diversity of perspectives.  There are some pretty smart people on this board - and some really nice people.   I have those days like all of you where I get tired of the whining and negativity - but for the most part I really appreciate almost all of you.

We probably aren't going to the Super Bowl this year.   But personally I plan on sticking with the team and all of you.   I would be very unhappy if we did not have an NFL team - and I'm committed to this team since I've been around since 1968.

And I'd be very unhappy if this board was not around.  Hang in their brothers and sisters!

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2019, 04:45 PM)3wt Wrote: It's a culture thing.   It takes a lot to change a team culture, workplace culture or family culture.   Culture change is truly rare.

In terms of examples I think of what happened in New England.   It took a new head coach and an injury to their "franchise" QB to jump start the team.  And more than a couple of years combined with that to establish a new and winning culture.  The Steelers were a really bad team before Rooney and Noll changed the culture.

I feel like it's happened successfully on the RAMs team, but took a couple of years.  I think it's happening in San Francisco, but has taken 3 years to take hold.   It happened in Seattle with Pete Carrol, and it happened with Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay but took a long time and was finally cashed in on by Gruden.

I think we have the start of a culture change happening.  But it's going to take some time.  ZT is going to have his own growing pains, and the jury is out on Tobin and the Blackburns.  I have been unhappy with much of the drafting since 2015, but it hasn't been a wash.  And the whole fiasco with the Hart contract has been discouraging.  But despite his growing pains I think ZT was a good hire and that encourages me.

As for this board, we have our own culture.  There are always those who beat a dead horse, become overly negative, vituperative or just plain nasty - including myself.   But by and large I like the culture here and the diversity of perspectives.  There are some pretty smart people on this board - and some really nice people.   I have those days like all of you where I get tired of the whining and negativity - but for the most part I really appreciate almost all of you.

We probably aren't going to the Super Bowl this year.   But personally I plan on sticking with the team and all of you.   I would be very unhappy if we did not have an NFL team - and I'm committed to this team since I've been around since 1968.

And I'd be very unhappy if this board was not around.  Hang in their brothers and sisters!

Culture is generally set from the top down. It's hard for someone in the middle to change it, but I'm sure Marvin and ZT tried/will try.

I really feel like IF they'd just hire more quality scouts, fire Tobin and replace him with an outsider with a proven football background, and start signing a couple upgrades in free agency...that this organization would win a playoff game over the next few seasons.

It's hard to change the culture when management and management practices stay the same. I'm sure there are rare coaches who could do it, but most would fail. Coughlin questioned if he could win here the way it was structured.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2019, 04:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bills signed 22 free agents and are 3-0 now. Man would a Jordan Hicks and LJ Fort be looking good at LB for us.

Honestly, I don't think our schemes are as good as the Rams and neither are the players. We're like a generic version of them.

Now maybe had we added Saffold, Hicks, and Fort in free agency we're looking good now. Hard to say really.

The Bills had $75 mill in cap space before FA started. That's nearly $30 mill more than the Bengals had.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-25-2019, 11:30 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Well, I can't argue with you on the primetime, playoffs and the Steelers. Marv just couldn't get over those.

I've been looking forward to seeing if the new coaching staff would fair better against the Steelers and have had this week's game marked in my mind as a key game for ZT as HC. It can still happen.

 

Feel the same. Actually expecting us to go into Pitt and beat them this time under Taylor.

We have played good on the road against much better teams IMO...

And Taylor is not a Steelers fan like Marv has always been.

(09-25-2019, 11:32 PM)jason Wrote: Too bad Marvin never got a shot at a toothless Steelers team like this one.

True, should be the time to take them and give our young coaches and players confidence.

[fredtoast]

(09-26-2019, 12:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Their dominance defies logic, doesn't it?

Yes it does.  The Steelers were a better team than the Bengals most of the time, but not by that much.  The numbers for the Marvin era Bengals against the Steelers are ridiculous. (winning teams = teams that finished with winning record)

First of all most people don't realize that during the Marvin Era only 5 teams (Phi, Ind, Den, Pitt, NE) had more wins against winning teams than the Bengals 42.  New England is the only team who had more wins against winning teams than the Steelers 57, but look at the breakdown of the Bengals and Steelers wins.

Bengals had 38 wins against winning teams other than Steelers.
Steelers had 38 wins against winning teams other than Bengals.

Bengals had 4 wins against Steelers when they finished with a winning record.
Steelers had 19 wins against Bengals when they finished with a winning record. 

ONE THIRD of all of the Steelers wins against winning teams came against just one team, the Bengals.  They were not that much better than us, but they absolutely owned us.

[XsandOs]

(09-26-2019, 11:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Fandom is emotional not rational. If it was rational, a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 28+ years would have 0 fans.

I would argue that true non-bandwagon fandom is a hereditary emotional disease that is forced upon children by cruel parents.

My sons wanted Aikman and Brady jerseys. But Palmer is what they received.

So, as long as there are terrible parents out there, I doubt the Bengals will end up short of fans.

BTW, I know most of you on this board are guilty of the same torturous crime.

Shame on you!

[SunsetBengal]

(09-26-2019, 04:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bills signed 22 free agents and are 3-0 now. Man would a Jordan Hicks and LJ Fort be looking good at LB for us.

Honestly, I don't think our schemes are as good as the Rams and neither are the players. We're like a generic version of them.

Now maybe had we added Saffold, Hicks, and Fort in free agency we're looking good now. Hard to say really.

As long as we're playing "what if"?  If Jonah Williams had not gotten injured, Clint Boling not retired, Cordy Glenn not suffered apparent permanent brain damage, and AJ Green not suffered a freak injury;  The Bengals Offense would likely be looking like the class of the league right now.