Do you trust Zac with player overhaul too?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2019, 02:43 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I prefer to believe that Taylor was convinced by the front office to not make many personnel changes. I also like to think Taylor is upset at the kind of crap he currently has that he could've addressed this past offseason. So, I'm hoping Taylor is going to pull out all the stops and do everything within his power to get his kind of players here this next offseason.

It may be more wishful thinking than anything based in reality, but I don't care.

I feel the same. The FO and the coaches left over from the previous regime likely gave their input and he didn't have enough time to do proper evaluations since he hadn't worked with any of these players in the past.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-01-2019, 02:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think a big problem is Taylor's staff, for the most part, hand't worked first-hand with Hart and Brown and didn't have an opportunity to do so before FA hit. Therefore, they had to take the input from the staff members who were there from last year.

If this team cannot attract quality FAs, this is going to be a multi-year rebuild and overly reliant on draft picks developing well.

Right. And college coaches...and watch tape, etc.

The problem with build through the draft is 1st Round picks may have a 40% chance of being good. So you have an issue, you draft a guy in the 1st Round...40% it's solved.

OR) Do you sign a free agent who you know can play well against NFL talent?

Really scouts come in both places. We have, what 2?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2019, 02:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Right. And college coaches...and watch tape, etc.

The problem with build through the draft is 1st Round picks may have a 40% chance of being good. So you have an issue, you draft a guy in the 1st Round...40% it's solved.

OR) Do you sign a free agent who you know can play well against NFL talent?

Really scouts come in both places. We have, what 2?

Even proven FAs can flounder if not put in the right system. One great example I always think of is Nnamdi Asomugha being a complete lockdown corner in Oakland but dropping off when he went to Philly and played in their zone scheme.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-01-2019, 02:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Even proven FAs can flounder if not put in the right system. One great example I always think of is Nnamdi Asomugha being a complete lockdown corner in Oakland but dropping off when he went to Philly and played in their zone scheme.

That's where scouts come in. Determining fit, etc.

It's not as easy as needing a LB and signing one.

Look what we do though. We let free agency happen and wait until a week is gone or so then start signing guys. What are the odds that the leftovers are perfect fits for our system? Why not go out and identify and target a few guys that we think will fit here? And go sign them.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2019, 02:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's where scouts come in. Determining fit, etc.

It's not as easy as needing a LB and signing one.

Look what we do though. We let free agency happen and wait until a week is gone or so then start signing guys. What are the odds that the leftovers are perfect fits for our system? Why not go out and identify and target a few guys that we think will fit here? And go sign them.

The team needs more scouts for sure. It's unfair for the coaches to have to also act as scouts.
However, it is the coaches' and coordinators' responsibility to adjust the scheme based on the players brought in.

[PDub80]

I like Taylor a lot. I think he is smart, but has a ton to learn. I'm 100% willing to allow this team of coaches to evolve before getting worked up. He clearly holds himself accountable and is self analyzing. This can only lead to positive strides. How long that takes is anyone's guess. I expected a 3-13 type of season. I think the last few drafts have grossly set the Bengals back talent wise. This is not on the coaches in the building at this point. I would like to see what kind of players are brought in over the next 3 drafts. After that, I think it's fair to look at the body of work.

I'm a Bengals fan for the long haul. I want the players and staff on the roster now to all to do well, but there's an old saying: Change the people or change the people. I don't see the players on the roster changing much past what they're doing. I'm fine letting them turn the roster over to find guys who fit what they want to do. That may take a bit!

[fortyyearfan]

(10-01-2019, 10:51 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It's hard to say.
Zac Taylor couldn't technically start working with the Bengals until Feb 4.
He then had to assemble his entire staff, of which took practically the entire month.
That left very little time to research and plan for players in FA.
I think because of that whirlwind, the team relied on re-signing players like Hart, Brown, Uzomah, Eifert, and Dennard while signing backup-caliber outside FAs with ties to Anarumo like BW Webb and Kerry Wynn.

I'm willing to give Taylor one more offseason to turn things around since he'll have a full offseason starting 12/30/19 (day after Week 17) to fully dive into everything.
I'm really hoping we see one of two approaches:
1) Team truly identifies the age of the core talented players and goes all in for 2020 by picking up quality starters in FA who are in the Top 15 at their position.
2) Go full rebuild and not have the following players back who will be in the final year of their contracts or will hit FA: Green, Dalton, Glenn, Eifert, Vigil, Dennard, Smith. I'd also look to trade/cut Kirkpatrick, Hart, Brown. If the Bengals go this option, they would have $100+ mill to spend. Some FAs I'd love to see are Littleton, Castonzo and/or Bulaga, and a WR (there are plenty solid vet options to pick from).

As of right now,I do not trust ANYONE to do anything right,and I feel as if the players have already called it in.So so many of these guys were NEVER make the roster on the pats team or any team that has a good coaching staff.This was the worse embarrass ing loss to the stoolers we have ever had and what was so bad it was on Monday night with the whole world watching.We were clearly outcoached,outplayed,the steelers have real players that will simply knock your head off and our guys are a bunch of ***** out there.Please someone replaced andy Dalton and give the other guy a chance and to me he is not going to be your long term answer.To lose the way we did on MNF was the last straw to me. I hate pissburg and all of the players there and I want nothing more than to just beat them down to a pulp.I feel this team is going to struggle just to beat the cards.Please,all you fans that go to the game,just boo the whole game.ZT to me is looking more like Dave Shula and I think he is over his head,not to mention he needs a ton of players and some fire in the belly.I see none of that. :paul: :paul: :paul: :paul: :paul: :paul:

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2019, 03:14 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I like Taylor a lot. I think he is smart, but has a ton to learn. I'm 100% willing to allow this team of coaches to evolve before getting worked up. He clearly holds himself accountable and is self analyzing. This can only lead to positive strides. How long that takes is anyone's guess. I expected a 3-13 type of season. I think the last few drafts have grossly set the Bengals back talent wise. This is not on the coaches in the building at this point. I would like to see what kind of players are brought in over the next 3 drafts. After that, I think it's fair to look at the body of work.

I'm a Bengals fan for the long haul. I want the players and staff on the roster now to all to do well, but there's an old saying: Change the people or change the people. I don't see the players on the roster changing much past what they're doing. I'm fine letting them turn the roster over to find guys who fit what they want to do. That may take a bit!

If anything, Taylor deserves through the rest of this season to try to make improvements. I'm willing to give him a second season too after seeing what changes happen when he's been the HC for an entire offseason.

With that said, I also would be fine with the organization choosing to go with a different HC and staff if they really wanted to.

[*psychdoctor*]

Three things:

I think Tobin has to be fired and a reputable talent evaluator for his replacement needs to be hired first.
Turner needs to go.
Give Taylor money to bring in blue chip FA's and two full off-seasons to purge the roster and start a rebuild.

[PDub80]

(10-01-2019, 04:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If anything, Taylor deserves through the rest of this season to try to make improvements. I'm willing to give him a second season too after seeing what changes happen when he's been the HC for an entire offseason.

With that said, I also would be fine with the organization choosing to go with a different HC and staff if they really wanted to.

Ahahahahahah!

[mallorian69]

(10-01-2019, 02:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Supposedly Taylor evaluated our roster...so presumably he had atleast some say in keeping Hart and Brown. IF he said they were bad, I doubt the Bengals would have kept them.

I feel like the team banked on a new staff making these guys better.

Maybe Taylor was a smooth talker and fooled management?

Personally I think ZT was hired because he is a yes man. If you go back and reevaluate all of his pressers and comments from the first month or 2 without wearing bengals colored glasses it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[WhodeyRay]

I don't trust anyone who thinks it is a good idea to keep just 4 LB's. This includes Tobin. If we are doing roster evaluations at cut down time and the coach says we are only keeping these 4 LBs my first question would be then who are we trading that you are keeping to get to 5 or 6? If he says he only wants 4 my next question is do you have a damned clue what you are doing?

[HarleyDog]

A lot of negative on ZT. And the small zingers being tossed around like, "do we miss Marvin yet?" posts are comical. Dude is in his 4th game as HC. Losing sucks but it's part of the game. Granted, I know we got embarrassed last night and when I woke up this morning I was depressed and all I could think about was that damn loss. Partly because I hate losing to the Steelers and partly because an 0-3 team embarrassed us. Also partly because we deserve better from this team ad I was sooooo badly wanting them to deliver this year. By no means am I saying they still cant put it together this year, but now that I'm starting to remove my homer glasses it appears some of you that predicted it would take a few years to develop are probably right.

We would be foolish to get rid of ZT after the year. These coaches want to win but damn, when your OL sucks so bad that Dalton get's sacked 8 times in 1 game, that's just ridiculous. I'm also buying into some of the talk that Dalton might not be a good fit right now. He's a good QB but dude is not going to last because he's just not that mobile QB we need when our line sucks so bad. Our LB's looked horrible last night also and our DL was pretty weak too. These guys plainly didn't show up.

What I put on the coaches is the lack of preparedness, the undisciplined play and lack of of clock management. However, we can't forget what I stated above. It's only their 4th game. 4th game of ZT and 4th game of these coaches being together. They will learn and hopefully become a force to be reckoned with. ZT get's at least a 2-3yr pass from me as long as he shows improvement along the way. Same way with all these coaches.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-01-2019, 06:52 PM)mallorian69 Wrote: Personally I think ZT was hired because he is a yes man. If you go back and reevaluate all of his pressers and comments from the first month or 2 without wearing bengals colored glasses it sticks out like a sore thumb.

No doubt. But, I think reality hit the 2nd half of the Steelers game. He looked like a deer in the headlights on the sideline. Shocked.

I think it really hit him how bad this is.

Wait until he's at home getting boo'ed.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-01-2019, 07:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: A lot of negative on ZT. And the small zingers being tossed around like, "do we miss Marvin yet?" posts are comical. Dude is in his 4th game as HC. Losing sucks but it's part of the game. Granted, I know we got embarrassed last night and when I woke up this morning I was depressed and all I could think about was that damn loss. Partly because I hate losing to the Steelers and partly because an 0-3 team embarrassed us. Also partly because we deserve better from this team ad I was sooooo badly wanting them to deliver this year. By no means am I saying they still cant put it together this year, but now that I'm starting to remove my homer glasses it appears some of you that predicted it would take a few years to develop are probably right.

We would be foolish to get rid of ZT after the year. These coaches want to win but damn, when your OL sucks so bad that Dalton get's sacked 8 times in 1 game, that's just ridiculous. I'm also buying into some of the talk that Dalton might not be a good fit right now. He's a good QB but dude is not going to last because he's just not that mobile QB we need when our line sucks so bad. Our LB's looked horrible last night also and our DL was pretty weak too. These guys plainly didn't show up.

What I put on the coaches is the lack of preparedness, the undisciplined play and lack of of clock management. However, we can't forget what I stated above. It's only their 4th game. 4th game of ZT and 4th game of these coaches being together. They will learn and hopefully become a force to be reckoned with. ZT get's at least a 2-3yr pass from me as long as he shows improvement along the way. Same way with all these coaches.

Good post. I will say, that while ZT doesn't get fired after this year...they probably need to evaluate the assistants and some may need fired. And they need to bring in experienced guys.

I'd target Jay Gruden as the OC for instance. No clue IF he'd come.

And IF Zimmer gets fired...I'd offer to overpay him to get him here as the DC.

And management needs to realize you can't fix all these holes in 1 draft. They need free agents.

We both know most of those things won't happen though. They'll probably hire Hue as a consultant!

[Destro]

As long as the team held onto Marvin and these horrible draft picks, I'll give this year a pass, see what next year brings.

[PDub80]

(10-01-2019, 08:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No doubt. But, I think reality hit the 2nd half of the Steelers game. He looked like a deer in the headlights on the sideline. Shocked.

I think it really hit him how bad this is.

Wait until he's at home getting boo'ed.

I would never boo them, but I have season tix so I'll be there to witness next week. I would be lying if I didn't say I'm not secretly amuzed when the boo birds come out. They come fast these days. It's like the fans are coming into the stadium with pitchforks and torches!

[THE PISTONS]

(10-01-2019, 08:41 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I would never boo them, but I have season tix so I'll be there to witness next week. I would be lying if I didn't say I'm not secretly amuzed when the boo birds come out. They come fast these days. It's like the fans are coming into the stadium with pitchforks and torches!

Interestingly, IF they played well against Pittsburgh, I was going to drive out to the Cardinals game. Not worth it now.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2019, 06:48 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Ahahahahahah!

What’s funny about what I said?


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[chopperbobby]

(10-01-2019, 09:57 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Lots of back and forth on whether the record is primarily the product of inheriting a poor squad or poor coaching (obviously its both but that's too pragmatic a position for a message board right! )

So, simple question.

In the off season do you trust Zac leading a significant player overhaul?

What was in his control clearly this off season was the coaching overhaul and that looks dubious at the moment with particularly Turner and Lou in the crosshairs.

But do you feel confident in him assembling a roster.

Does he knows where to get his new QB, whether he values LB position or not and will invest in it, is he a 4-3/3-4 guy and does he know what players he needs to get there, does he want small speedy WR's / big bodies etc,etc.

We need a true GM. They build teams. Tobin is the special assistant to the owner. Like hue was to Marvin last year. But until we get a full scouting team with a GM. Our draft picks will suck like the last few years. It would be nice to see a 1st rounder play the first year. And contribute. Like most other teams.