Posts: 19,658
Threads: 633
Reputation:
85300
Joined: Oct 2016
(10-12-2019, 01:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That is all possible, but at the same time how can a franchise that has had 2 QBs for nearly 20 years and 0 post-season wins to show for it be scared to try a new QB? As much as we say a high 1st pick QB could be the next Ryan Leaf I can see other fanbases say "Sure, we COULD stick with our QB but what if we end up like the Bengals and spend two decades with 2 QBs and win nothing?"
Building the line BEFORE we draft a QB is a logical move, but our o-line has been bad for years and despite Mike Brown actually trying (in his own half-assed way) to fix it, it is WORSE than before he tried to fix it. When is our o-line going to be good enough to warrant drafting a QB? It's been years with no relief in sight...so we just extend Dalton until 2025 and hope that at some point the o-line will finally be good enough to boot his ass and put someone else in there? Oof!
Indeed...and we've seen some teams with good offensive lines who struggle to find a QB for 5-10 years. Thus, effectively wasting the offensive line.
I think you just have to build with the players available to you. IF you can get a franchise QB, you take them. Franchise Tackle...take them.
That said, for all we know we could draft an OT at 2 who is a bust or Jonah could be a bust. You never know.
Posts: 19,645
Threads: 144
Reputation:
162254
Joined: May 2015
Location: Covington, Ky
(10-12-2019, 03:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Quick question... you and I have beaten this to death, I know your stance, you know mine, so no need to keep going on about it.
Do you honestly think that Dalton doesn't win in '15? The one year he had a decent OLine (Bodine was the only real weakness). Green, Jones and Sanu at WR. Eifert stayed healthy. Bernard and Hill were considered a dual RB threat.
It is even possible had he not been freakishly injured, that we have a playoff bye and the Steelers don't even qualify.
(When I say win, I don't mean SB, but I do mean a playoff game)
I think '15, along with '13 were the best chances. We saw what McCarron did, almost helping the team to a win and he didn't really play well until the 4th quarter. I'd like to believe Dalton would have, just like i'd like to believe Carson would have in '05...but there's nothing to make me say "they would have" definitively.
As i referenced with '13, there's no way they should have lost that game. Had recently beaten them in SD, MJ had a great game. Dalton played a really good game in the 1st half, and short of a Gio fumble...they would have had a bigger lead going into the half. Problem is, we saw what happened in the 2nd half. They stopped running effectively, the defense shit the bed and allowed the Chargers to run all over them and Dalton did his part by playing bad in the 2nd half.
There are always great 'what if's' in Bengals lore which keeps people believing that would have been the year. But...all the other years that were actually finished by Carson and Dalton ended without a playoff win and even without the QB being let down at the end of the game after getting a lead late.
DAmn...that was a long answer for a short question. Sorry
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
Posts: 25,840
Threads: 650
Reputation:
243154
Joined: May 2015
Location: Jackson, OH
(10-12-2019, 02:50 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The thing is, you're sticking to the old ways. That's not the NFL anymore. More and more athletic DEs come into the league and defenses build pressure packages to disrupt pocket passers. You absolutely need a mobile QB these days that can extend plays and drives with his feet as well as his arm. The Bengals don't have a mobile QB.
And that has boggled me, for the longest. We know that Andy can run, he's got some quickness. Heck, he was an RPO QB in college. But when it comes to moving around in the pocket, forget about it. It's like he's frozen, and forgets that he has genuine athletic ability or something.
Edit: This is from his draft profile on NFL.com
Quote:STRENGTHS
Dalton is a well prepared player that scans the whole field and makes solid decisions. Has a quick release, a strong arm and is an accurate passer, especially on the run. Has great mobility in the pocket and shows very good instincts as a runner. Extremely productive collegiate career.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
-Frank Booth 1/9/23
Posts: 19,645
Threads: 144
Reputation:
162254
Joined: May 2015
Location: Covington, Ky
(10-12-2019, 04:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And that has boggled me, for the longest. We know that Andy can run, he's got some quickness. Heck, he was an RPO QB in college. But when it comes to moving around in the pocket, forget about it. It's like he's frozen, and forgets that he has genuine athletic ability or something.
Makes sense though. You can teach RPO and when to hand off and when to run based on reads. You can't teach innate ability to feel pressure and move away from it.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
Posts: 7,135
Threads: 50
Reputation:
49019
Joined: May 2015
(10-12-2019, 03:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed...and we've seen some teams with good offensive lines who struggle to find a QB for 5-10 years. Thus, effectively wasting the offensive line.
I think you just have to build with the players available to you. IF you can get a franchise QB, you take them. Franchise Tackle...take them.
That said, for all we know we could draft an OT at 2 who is a bust or Jonah could be a bust. You never know.
I think another thing people miss is that just because you drafted a QB in the first doesn't mean you can't also work to rebuild the OL.
Dalton has a cap hit of $17.7 mil next year with zero dead money if cut or traded. That's what a quality starting RT would cost in FA. If you sign a RT in FA, draft a LG in the 2nd, and resign Hopkins, the OL looks fairly solid on paper.
The other issue with building the OL first is that if you have a good enough OL to make a mediocre QB serviceable, then you're winning too many games to be in position for a top QB prospect without working a ridiculous trade. Frankly, that's kind of where we've been the past few years. We don't have enough talent to compete for a title, but we have too much talent to completely bottom out and get a potential franchise QB or snag one of those 1st round prospects that falls into the top of the 2nd.
Posts: 19,645
Threads: 144
Reputation:
162254
Joined: May 2015
Location: Covington, Ky
(10-12-2019, 04:53 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think another thing people miss is that just because you drafted a QB in the first doesn't mean you can't also work to rebuild the OL.
Dalton has a cap hit of $17.7 mil next year with zero dead money if cut or traded. That's what a quality starting RT would cost in FA. If you sign a RT in FA, draft a LG in the 2nd, and resign Hopkins, the OL looks fairly solid on paper.
The other issue with building the OL first is that if you have a good enough OL to make a mediocre QB serviceable, then you're winning too many games to be in position for a top QB prospect without working a ridiculous trade. Frankly, that's kind of where we've been the past few years. We don't have enough talent to compete for a title, but we have too much talent to completely bottom out and get a potential franchise QB or snag one of those 1st round prospects that falls into the top of the 2nd.
That is exactly what i'm hoping they do. Conklin and Kindley. They're my guys!!!!! (Kindley's gonna be gone by the 2nd though, that's why they need to trade someone or find some way to trade up in the draft).
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
Posts: 326
Threads: 3
Reputation:
1540
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-12-2019, 04:45 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think '15, along with '13 were the best chances. We saw what McCarron did, almost helping the team to a win and he didn't really play well until the 4th quarter. I'd like to believe Dalton would have, just like i'd like to believe Carson would have in '05...but there's nothing to make me say "they would have" definitively.
As i referenced with '13, there's no way they should have lost that game. Had recently beaten them in SD, MJ had a great game. Dalton played a really good game in the 1st half, and short of a Gio fumble...they would have had a bigger lead going into the half. Problem is, we saw what happened in the 2nd half. They stopped running effectively, the defense shit the bed and allowed the Chargers to run all over them and Dalton did his part by playing bad in the 2nd half.
There are always great 'what if's' in Bengals lore which keeps people believing that would have been the year. But...all the other years that were actually finished by Carson and Dalton ended without a playoff win and even without the QB being let down at the end of the game after getting a lead late.
DAmn...that was a long answer for a short question. Sorry
No worries on a long response. I have them myself. Too much info to put out.
'15 was the best chance we had at winning. '13 was closer than we all believed. SD was missing some key players that first match up. Also our defense didn't stop SD, they stopped themselves. I always looked at our win in SD as fool's gold. It was nice, but it wasn't us winning as much as them losing.
As you said, in '15 we almost pulled out a win with McCarron at QB. We also had a full compliment of players and no injuries aside from Dalton himself. I know people look at Burfict's hit and Jones' outburst, but I believe that if Hill doesn't fumble we win. The coaches to me should have put in Burkhead at that point. Hill was just too emotional.
Posts: 27,916
Threads: 349
Reputation:
239155
Joined: Aug 2016
(10-12-2019, 03:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Quick question... you and I have beaten this to death, I know your stance, you know mine, so no need to keep going on about it.
Do you honestly think that Dalton doesn't win in '15? The one year he had a decent OLine (Bodine was the only real weakness). Green, Jones and Sanu at WR. Eifert stayed healthy. Bernard and Hill were considered a dual RB threat.
It is even possible had he not been freakishly injured, that we have a playoff bye and the Steelers don't even qualify.
(When I say win, I don't mean SB, but I do mean a playoff game)
Great. One single playoff win in 9 years...
Sorry if some of us are hoping for a little more. Tim Tebow and Mark Sanchez can win playoff games too when everything is perfect around them...
Posts: 25,840
Threads: 650
Reputation:
243154
Joined: May 2015
Location: Jackson, OH
(10-12-2019, 05:32 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: No worries on a long response. I have them myself. Too much info to put out.
'15 was the best chance we had at winning. '13 was closer than we all believed. SD was missing some key players that first match up. Also our defense didn't stop SD, they stopped themselves. I always looked at our win in SD as fool's gold. It was nice, but it us winning as much as them losing.
As you said, in '15 we almost pulled out a win with McCarron at QB. We also had a full compliment of players and no injuries aside from Dalton himself. I know people look at Burfict's hit and Jones' outburst, but I believe that if Hill doesn't fumble we win. The coaches to me should have put in Burkhead at that point. Hill was just too emotional.
Yes, that '15 team was special. That was the first time that I went all in, and was completely emotionally invested, since the '05 season. They were a supremely talented group, that worked well together. Like yourself, I truly believe that we were a broken thumb, and Bodine being able to get push on a NT, from going the distance.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
-Frank Booth 1/9/23
Posts: 326
Threads: 3
Reputation:
1540
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-12-2019, 05:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Great. One single playoff win in 9 years...
Sorry if some of us are hoping for a little more. Tim Tebow and Mark Sanchez can win playoff games too when everything is perfect around them...
Seriously... is that what you think I said? That we would only win 1? Hell that '15 team was just about as good as anyone. Remember we played Denver that year and with McCarron almost came away with a win. I don't think we lose that with Dalton as the QB. Denver as you remember won the SB that year. Yes, I did say not necessarily winning the SB, but that doesn't mean we don't win it either.
However the reason I do limit it to just a playoff win, is because that seems to be what many view a good QB, as someone who wins in the playoffs.
As to QBs winning when everything is perfect, that is EVERY QB in the league. No QB will win playoff games if they don't have WRs to throw to, TEs catching easy passes or defense doing their job either.
Posts: 11,477
Threads: 19
Reputation:
78962
Joined: May 2015
Location: Where Mr. Kotter was before returning
(10-12-2019, 02:46 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm with you on wanting to see Dalton go to a good team but for different reasons. To prove that he is just an average QB that doesn't have (whatever it takes) to make the throws in the most critical situations, and win there.
I honestly don't dislike the guy. I've met him twice, once with his wife and kids and he's a good down to earth person that takes playing football into perspective.
All of my malice (what i've heaped on him lately) is due to fans that can't see he's not the guy to take this team through the playoffs and compete for a SB, and continue to rush to his defense with a mountain of excuses. And i'm quite tired of seeing him run out there game after game to do juuuuust enough so those fans (and the coaching staff, to my horror) think that he's right on the cusp of getting over the top. It's not going to happen, anywhere. Write that down for posterity (as far as predictions go).
Eight years and 5 games and he has top 10 numbers (yards, tds, gwd, etc) gained mostly with an elite defense, an adequate running game at least part of the time and good to great WRs to throw to, as well as a top 10 pass blocking line for his first 5 years.
His team has failed just as hard, in the playoffs especially, but he's done nothing to overcome it and get past the 1st round of the playoffs while he had the talent around him.
I get that... I feel differently about him, but whatever. Bottom line is this whole ***** team ain't the guy to get them anywhere in the playoffs. The one stud we have on the roster, half of us wanna trade away now. It gonna be a long couple of years around here. The Bengals have a shitty roster, an incompetent coaching staff, and Mike Brown. Even when they were making the playoffs, they failed as a team. They got ran over, couldn't pressure, couldn't cover, fumbled... And Andy Dalton is the guy that can't overcome all that....
Tough crowd.
I'm gonna break every record they've got. I'm tellin' you right now. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but it's goin' to get done.
- Ja'Marr Chase
April 2021
Posts: 532
Threads: 17
Reputation:
4191
Joined: Apr 2018
Dalton isn't our biggest problem. But he's not a solution either. He doesn't elevate other guys.
Posts: 27,916
Threads: 349
Reputation:
239155
Joined: Aug 2016
(10-12-2019, 08:51 PM)Jason_NC Wrote: Dalton isn't our biggest problem. But he's not a solution either. He doesn't elevate other guys.
Our biggest problem owns the team, and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about that.
QB, OL (outside Hopkins), LB, and coaching are all problems right now. What percentage you want to assign blame to each will vary depending who you ask.
Posts: 19,645
Threads: 144
Reputation:
162254
Joined: May 2015
Location: Covington, Ky
(10-12-2019, 08:42 PM)jason Wrote: I get that... I feel differently about him, but whatever. Bottom line is this whole ***** team ain't the guy to get them anywhere in the playoffs. The one stud we have on the roster, half of us wanna trade away now. It gonna be a long couple of years around here. The Bengals have a shitty roster, an incompetent coaching staff, and Mike Brown. Even when they were making the playoffs, they failed as a team. They got ran over, couldn't pressure, couldn't cover, fumbled... And Andy Dalton is the guy that can't overcome all that....
Tough crowd.
He couldn't overcome all that? How about making the 1 throw he needed to make to AJ in 2012? How about not throwing 2 picks and fumbling in 2013?
Is that asking too much?
Your answer pretty much encapsulates those that defend him. Don't look for the minimum he could have done, just go straight to the extreme.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
Posts: 27,916
Threads: 349
Reputation:
239155
Joined: Aug 2016
(10-13-2019, 01:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He couldn't overcome all that? How about making the 1 throw he needed to make to AJ in 2012? How about not throwing 2 picks and fumbling in 2013?
Is that asking too much?
It’s like Sisyphus and his boulder trying to combat the endless excuses isn’t it? And we’re punished by Zues...I mean Zac by being forced to watch #14 do the same shit over and over again...
Posts: 18,677
Threads: 463
Reputation:
119184
Joined: May 2015
Location: Nashville, TN
It’s hard to believe basically the same team got 6 wins last year. This play calling is atrocious and both coordinators need removed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Zac Taylor 2023: 9 wins despite losing Burrow half the season
Zac Taylor 2024: Started 1-4. If he can turn this into a playoff appearance, it will be impressive.
Sorry for Party Rocking!
Posts: 2,343
Threads: 14
Reputation:
7714
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 8,782
Threads: 219
Reputation:
29892
Joined: May 2015
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia
(10-13-2019, 05:18 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Our QB sucks ass
Our LB sucks more ass & don't get me started on the Offensive line.
Posts: 8,655
Threads: 301
Reputation:
73224
Joined: Jan 2016
Location: Kettering, Ohio
The Bengals had 33 total rushing yards today. That’s the issue.
Posts: 1,976
Threads: 0
Reputation:
7390
Joined: Jan 2016
(10-12-2019, 08:51 PM)Jason_NC Wrote: Dalton isn't our biggest problem. But he's not a solution either. He doesn't elevate other guys.
Completely agree with this. I really do still think a lot of people underrate the guy, he's really not THAT bad. But he doesn't take us to the next level like the top QBs do. He doesn't find a way or a will to win like some other QBs do.
I like Andy, but he has been here for a while now and we haven't won that playoff game, despite a long stretch at having chances to. It doesn't all rest on Dalton thats for sure, the team as a whole choke away the big games all the damn time. But Andy's playoff performances were by and large very bad. He's clearly not the guy to take this team forward.
We're one of the worst teams in the league now, and that isn't due to the QB. The OL is appalling, and a number of other positions are pretty bad. QB isn't one of them. But it's definitely time to look at what's up next after Dalton. We have had teams where most of those other issues were fixed and he still didn't win.
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
