Maybe QB isn't our biggest problem?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 08:48 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I agree that a talented QB can potentially change the trajectory of an organization...but the organization has to be willing to do what it takes to make that QB successful. When you say "you can work on other pieces" - well, how long will that take with a franchise that still isn't willing to be buyers in the free agent market, who have not had great success with their last few drafts and who's current roster is littered with problems? 

Say we take a Tua, Hebert or whoever. How much of an impact will he make if the o-line is still shit, they can't run consistently, can't tackle, get pressure, make proper adjustments, have more subpar drafts, continue to sign lower-tier FA's???

Again, I'm all for replacing Andy, but replacing the QB - on this particular team - is just one piece of a very big, problem filled puzzle, no matter how good he is. Like I said, if they replace Andy and don't do the other things that are desperately needed...then we will be nothing more than a team with a talented QB surrounded by a lot of other problems.

I would love to see them not only replace Andy, but be extremely serious and aggressive about fixing this roster. I was hopeful we would see a step in that direction this offseason with the new HC and staff, but it was more of the same...with Hart, Miller, Webb and Wynn being the crown jewels of the offseason. 

I guess what I'm saying is that the front office needs to get off their complacent asses and get serious about building a winner. No more interviews about how they want to win, no more letters to fans about how they are trying to win...just go out and do what it takes to make this franchise successful and quit settling for "occasionally good" as the goal.

Great post! And people say it will take time for ZT to change culture...which is a crock. You either change it when you come in, or it's REALLY HARD to change.

What would have changed the culture was bringing in a new HC, Staff, and 2-3 free agent upgrades that show 'Hey, we want to win!' It's what the Rams did. It's a pretty proven blueprint.

The Bengals whiffed on that. At a certain point, the players will start to have doubts about Taylor and the staff.

While I don't feel Taylor is qualified to be a HC, this is the perfect storm of management setting a naieve guy up to fail. It's just plain ineptness.

[J24]

(10-13-2019, 10:11 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I posted stats a couple weeks back about how bad they've been against the run over the last 3 plus years. 

It's just hard to watch at this point...getting ran all over again and again.

The frustrating part it's an easy fix get some modern day LBers.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 08:52 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: LB and Oline kind of run neck in neck for the biggest problem. 

Lemme tell you though. As usual with this team, probably, theee biggest problem has been injuries (plus a retirement). 

Put Jonah at LT. Put Glenn at RT. Put Boling at LG. Put AJ in the starting lineup. Are we looking at a 0-6 team? I doubt it. 

A better, higher scoring offense keeps the D off the field more and scores more points. Shootouts may be necessary but at least the pieces are there to pull it off, e.g., Atlanta last year.

That's just it though...and I agree...Glenn and Jonah should have been the Tackles. They had Hart penciled in at RT and were going to move Glenn to Guard. I think IF Glenn and Boling were healthy, that one of Glenn or Boling would have been waived.

But, yes IF 100% healthy we probably win a game or 2.

When was the last time we were 100% healthy though? It just doesn't happen here.

Maybe some of that is the strength and conditioning program? Yeah some injuries will happen. But, some might be avoidable.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2019, 08:48 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Say we take a Tua, Hebert or whoever. How much of an impact will he make if the o-line is still shit, they can't run consistently, can't tackle, get pressure, make proper adjustments, have more subpar drafts, continue to sign lower-tier FA's???

Again, I'm all for replacing Andy, but replacing the QB - on this particular team - is just one piece of a very big, problem filled puzzle, no matter how good he is. Like I said, if they replace Andy and don't do the other things that are desperately needed...then we will be nothing more than a team with a talented QB surrounded by a lot of other problems.

See, this is what i've been spewing about for the last couple weeks (maybe longer--it's in a reply somewhere on here). A good QB can move and avoid the rush better than Dalton which gives him a chance to complete more passes or run for more yards. Completing those passes or running, turns into more opportunities for first downs which does 2 things; gives a better chance at scoring points and keeps the defense off the field longer. 

A QB can mask a teams deficiencies on both sides of the ball simultaneously. He can also give you a chance when the defense is crapping all over themselves by being able to put more points on the board, keeping the team in the game. The Bengals currently have enough talented skill position players to help a good QB out. Even moreso with AJ back in the lineup. 

All that said, a shiny new athletic QB can't carry a team for his career without help, see; Carson Palmer. Other areas still need to be addressed in order to make the team a true SB contender. 

A new QB is more like stitches to close a wound. 

Right now, Andy Dalton is a guy ripping those stitches out.

P.S. As an example, Deshaun Watson gets sacked more than Dalton (i have a post about that around here somewhere too--most sacked QBs), but he's able to still avoid more often than not and extend drives, helping his team win games. He does it with his feet as well as his arm. Today's dual threat QB is not like yesterday's dual threat QB. He's not a guy that can barely pass but is a good runner, ala, Vick, he's a guy that can hurt you running AND passing equally. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: See, this is what i've been spewing about for the last couple weeks (maybe longer--it's in a reply somewhere on here). A good QB can move and avoid the rush better than Dalton which gives him a chance to complete more passes or run for more yards. Completing those passes or running, turns into more opportunities for first downs which does 2 things; gives a better chance at scoring points and keeps the defense off the field longer. 

A QB can mask a teams deficiencies on both sides of the ball simultaneously. He can also give you a chance when the defense is crapping all over themselves by being able to put more points on the board, keeping the team in the game. The Bengals currently have enough talented skill position players to help a good QB out. Even moreso with AJ back in the lineup. 
All that said, a shiny new athletic QB can't carry a team for his career without help, see; Carson Palmer. Other areas still need to be addressed in order to make the team a true SB contender. 
A new QB is more like stitches to close a wound. 

P.S. As an example, Deshaun Watson gets sacked more than Dalton (i have a post about that around here somewhere too--most sacked QBs), but he's able to still avoid more often than not and extend drives, helping his team win games. He does it with his feet as well as his arm. Today's dual threat QB is not like yesterday's dual threat QB. He's not a guy that can barely pass but is a good runner, ala, Vick, he's a guy that can hurt you running AND passing equally. 
Right now, Andy Dalton is the guy that keeps ripping those stitches out. 

I harp on pocket presence but I don't know that a lot of people get it. Brady's lineman give up pressure too, but he sense it and moves up 2 feet in the pocket and the DE has no angle to sack him.

Dalton may be the worst QB in the NFL at moving around the pocket to avoid the blitz. He just doesn't have it. So he gets sacked when a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger wouldn't.

It's teachable to some extent...but not at this point in his career.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-13-2019, 10:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I harp on pocket presence but I don't know that a lot of people get it. Brady's lineman give up pressure too, but he sense it and moves up 2 feet in the pocket and the DE has no angle to sack him.

Dalton may be the worst QB in the NFL at moving around the pocket to avoid the blitz. He just doesn't have it. So he gets sacked when a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger wouldn't.

It's teachable to some extent...but not at this point in his career.

But according to many here Brady has never even been breathed on, let alone pressured or sacked!

You’re telling me that’s not true??

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But according to many here Brady has never even been breathed on, let alone pressured or sacked!

You’re telling me that’s not true??

Brady's offensive line is nothing special. Heck, they traded for a few guys...Bodine being one before the season.

The Patriots coach their line up. And Brady has great pocket presence.

Honestly, even without Green...Dalton has better skill position players than Brady with Mixon, Boyd, Ross, Eifort, Bernard. But the Patriots have MUCH BETTER coaching and system around them.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But according to many here Brady has never even been breathed on, let alone pressured or sacked!

You’re telling me that’s not true??

Brady's offensive line is nothing special. Heck, they traded for a few guys...Bodine being one before the season.

The Patriots coach their line up. And Brady has great pocket presence.

Honestly, even without Green...Dalton has better skill position players than Brady with Mixon, Boyd, Ross, Eifort, Bernard. But the Patriots have MUCH BETTER coaching and system around them.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2019, 10:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I harp on pocket presence but I don't know that a lot of people get it. Brady's lineman give up pressure too, but he sense it and moves up 2 feet in the pocket and the DE has no angle to sack him.

Dalton may be the worst QB in the NFL at moving around the pocket to avoid the blitz. He just doesn't have it. So he gets sacked when a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger wouldn't.

It's teachable to some extent...but not at this point in his career.

That has to be it. As many times as Ben was sacked the first half of his career, he avoided so many more. He was known for extending plays when the line broke down and he's not some smallish, athletic guy that is RBish (like Lamar). 

That's all it takes, a guy that can move just enough to give himself a chance to complete a pass. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2019, 10:07 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: They gave up 200 + yards on the ground for the third time this season . You're not going to win many games doing that. 
Andy isn't the answer (especially at his price) but my God we need to stop  the run. It's like ground hog day every Sunday since 2017 no LB core and No offensive line.

LB is the huge problem on defense, both in run and pass. 

[*Synric*]

(10-13-2019, 10:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That has to be it. As many times as Ben was sacked the first half of his career, he avoided so many more. He was known for extending plays when the line broke down and he's not some smallish, athletic guy that is RBish (like Lamar). 

That's all it takes, a guy that can move just enough to give himself a chance to complete a pass. 

Drew Brees is the master when in the pocket he never moves 2 inches when 1 would do...

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That has to be it. As many times as Ben was sacked the first half of his career, he avoided so many more. He was known for extending plays when the line broke down and he's not some smallish, athletic guy that is RBish (like Lamar). 

That's all it takes, a guy that can move just enough to give himself a chance to complete a pass. 

Yep. And when you extend the play from say taking a sack in 3 seconds to 6-7 seconds...guys get open. Defenses can't cover that long.

Another issue with Dalton, is he generally seems to know where he wants to throw the ball early on...maybe as the ball is snapped and doesn't do a great job of switching off of that if the guy is covered. He'll force the throw in some cases.

When Green comes back, you can't just add a TD to our offensive output, because Dalton forces the ball to him and WILL throw more Int's.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, a Pittsburgh third string quarterback is ripping the Chargers a new arsehole 21 - 0 at halftime by mixing short passes with gashing runs by James Conner and Benny Snell. Conner has 39 yards rushing and 66 yards catching passes out of the backfield. That’s what Giovani Bernard used to do.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: LB is the huge problem on defense, both in run and pass. 

Yes! And when you have 2 slow LB's...what's the worst scheme you could put them in?

A 4-2-5! In this scheme, you need fast LB's who are versatile.

Honestly, shame on the front office AND coaches for signing off on this with the personnel we have.

[*bengalfan74*]

Yes it is

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:49 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, a Pittsburgh third string quarterback is ripping the Chargers a new arsehole 21 - 0 at halftime by mixing short passes with gashing runs by James Conner and Benny Snell.  Conner has 39 yards rushing and 66 yards catching passes out of the backfield.  That’s what Giovani Bernard used to do.

Well, one of those scores was defensive and the 2nd was the result of a short field after a turnover...but yes.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-13-2019, 10:45 PM)Synric Wrote: Drew Brees is the master when in the pocket he never moves 2 inches when 1 would do...

Honestly, can you name 1 great QB who doesn't have that type of pocket presence?

It seems to be THE big skill along with accuracy and arm strength. But having accuracy and arm strength alone isn't enough.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-13-2019, 10:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That has to be it. As many times as Ben was sacked the first half of his career, he avoided so many more. He was known for extending plays when the line broke down and he's not some smallish, athletic guy that is RBish (like Lamar). 

That's all it takes, a guy that can move just enough to give himself a chance to complete a pass.

At the first sign of any pressure Dalton panics. He's like a teenage boy trying to hide a Playboy magazine back under his bed when mom walks in his room.

[*bfine32*]

(10-13-2019, 10:49 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, a Pittsburgh third string quarterback is ripping the Chargers a new arsehole 21 - 0 at halftime by mixing short passes with gashing runs by James Conner and Benny Snell.  Conner has 39 yards rushing and 66 yards catching passes out of the backfield.  That’s what Giovani Bernard used to do.

The dude has less than 100 passing yards going into the 3rd quarter and both his RBs are having crappy games running the ball. 

[*Nately120*]

Remember when Hue Jackson was our OC and Andy Dalton was playing like a pseudo-MVP?