Carlos and Geno. Not just "age"

[THE PISTONS]

(11-11-2019, 02:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Could this possibly be just a bunch of bad coaches coaching badly and causing the entire team to regress?

The DL troubles are just a microcosm of what is happening with the entire team, save for special teams.

 

Yes! 

[THE PISTONS]

(11-11-2019, 03:01 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I don't think any player on the Bengals can be fairly evaluated until changes are made at coaching staff, at least defensively.

Indeed. Which is why I'd fire Lou asap.

re: Taylor - He's a bad OC.

But, he's also the guy that decided to do a light camp. He hasn't shown any ability to be a good HC either in my opinion.

[sonofstat]

(11-11-2019, 11:42 AM)Au165 Wrote: These stats can be a bit misleading. We are 3rd (in terms of least) in the NFL in opponent passing attempts per game, that is because we are 1st (in terms of most) in the NFL in rushing attempts against. We only have 29.2 passing attempts per game against us this season compared to last year where we were passed against the 7th most in the NFL at 36.5 passing attempts per game. Over the course of a season that is roughly 112 rush attempts not taking to account snaps played on passing downs versus rushing down. 

Has there been a little regression? Maybe. Sacks are often viewed as a bit of luck so I'd be curious about his pressure stats, but I think as much of the issue is teams are just running over us.

I do think (and pray) there are some wider reasons for the reduced production from Geno/Carlos

we've been behind in all the games, we've faced a fair few mobile QB's which means they've needed to be disciplined and they've just missed sacks with QB's escaping the pocket. Also i think with the LB deficiency we've seen the DL drop back into coverage more than you would want to see?

Of course all of that sounds like excuses but I sure as hell would give geno/carlos the benefit of the doubt .vs. our coaching staff right now

[impactplaya]

Dunlap and Atkins started to decline last year.
When was the last time Dunlap.and Atkins made a game changing
Play?
Atkins played well in that 4-1 stretch last year than after that
Became invisable...
Dunlap has a got a pass here for the last 2 years

[J24]

(11-11-2019, 08:47 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Dunlap and Atkins started to decline last year.
When was the last time Dunlap.and Atkins made a game changing
Play?
Atkins played well in that 4-1 stretch last year than after that
Became invisable...
Dunlap has a got a pass here for the last 2 years

Geno had Two sacks against the Jaguars this year. So you are either being obtuse or not watching (which I don't blame you). Also 2015-18 both guys were in the top 10 in pressures.
If you want to blame someone put the blame on the LB Core.
Here are some stats
1.) Dre Kirkpatrick has more solo Tackles than Preston Brown
2.) Neither are leading the team in Tackles
3.) Preston Brown has zero TFLs in his 16 game career
4.) The starting Defensive Line has a PFF collective rating of 73 the LBers have a rating of 46.4.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-11-2019, 07:20 PM)sonofstat Wrote: I do think (and pray) there are some wider reasons for the reduced production from Geno/Carlos

we've been behind in all the games, we've faced a fair few mobile QB's which means they've needed to be disciplined and they've just missed sacks with QB's escaping the pocket. Also i think with the LB deficiency we've seen the DL drop back into coverage more than you would want to see?

Of course all of that sounds like excuses but I sure as hell would give geno/carlos the benefit of the doubt .vs. our coaching staff right now

QB's escaping would factor into the pressure stats.

I don't know...it seriously looked like our defense gave up versus the Ravens.

[BengalFanInNJ]

Taylor will be the head coach next year regardless of what happens. He may make a token firing during the offseason, but, I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps the whole staff. What's going to happen is, this year, we finish 1-15 or 2-14 at best. Taylor gets another offseason of putting "his team" together and come 2020, we go 5-11 and Mike Brown continues to sit on his ass and makes no changes because we are "improving".

[J24]

(11-11-2019, 09:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: QB's escaping would factor into the pressure stats.

I don't know...it seriously looked like our defense gave up versus the Ravens.

We had 4 hits and a sack on Sunday. Geno missed a sack when Lamar Juked him.

[Catmandude123]

(11-11-2019, 11:45 AM)Big Boss Wrote: At least they aren't taking up a lot of cap space.


o_o

Geno and Dunlap almost 15 mil each. Another example of paying players who have zero chance of earning their paychecks. AJ is next in line for a MB welfare check.

[TKUHL]

You mean our D line is actually trying? I thought they were protesting the tick tack roughing the passer rule by not sacking the QB.

Ok serious now. I thought the lack of QB pressure and sacks might be a coaching thing but how hard is it for these guys to just get to the QB? I mean even if it’s poor scheming does it really effect the battle up front that much to get to the QB? I’m asking cause I’m sure someone here has a heck of a lot more knowledge about D line play than myself. It just seems like D line is more about power and skill, beat the guy in front of you, than schemes. Adkins, Dunlap, Billings etc just seem to not have that fire. I get it we are 0-9 but damn show some heart.

[Catmandude123]

(11-11-2019, 09:36 PM)J24 Wrote: Geno had Two sacks against the Jaguars this year. So you are either being obtuse or not watching (which I don't blame you). Also 2015-18 both guys were in the top 10 in pressures

Geno had two sacks in the first quarter against the Jags then disappeared the rest of the game.  He has one other sack in the other eight games.  He had 4 sacks in the last 10 games last year and three of them were in one game. That means he had ONE sack in the other nine games. Not exactly pro bowl stats or worth 15 mil/yr. BTW he is under contract until 2023.

[J24]

(11-11-2019, 11:05 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Geno had two sacks in the first quarter against the Jags then disappeared the rest of the game.  He has one other sack in the other eight games.  He had 4 sacks in the last 10 games last year and three of them were in one game. That means he had ONE sack in the other nine games. Not exactly pro bowl stats or worth 15 mil/yr. BTW he is under contract until 2023.

What do you expect the guy to do? Have 12 sacks a game to be worth it? He had 2 sacks, 2 TFL, and 2 QB hits in that game.  If you think that isn't good then you suck as a football fan.
Is he having a bad year for him? Sure but he is still one of the best at his position and he is the best player on our team.

[impactplaya]

(11-11-2019, 09:36 PM)J24 Wrote: Geno had Two sacks against the Jaguars this year. So you are either being obtuse or not watching (which I don't blame you). Also 2015-18 both guys were in the top 10 in pressures.
If you want to blame someone put the blame on the LB Core.
Here are some stats
1.) Dre Kirkpatrick has more solo Tackles than Preston Brown
2.) Neither are leading the team in Tackles
3.) Preston Brown has zero TFLs in his 16 game career
4.) The starting Defensive Line has a PFF collective rating  of 73 the LBers have a rating of 46.4.

Where was Geno when Kyler Murray drove down the field in the final 1:45 a few weeks ago ?
Where was Geno when the Steelers behind Mason Rudolph put up 24 on the Bengals ?
How many times has Geno Stonewalled a RB this year In the hole?
I could less about his 2 sacks vs the Jags. 
Yeah and Andy threw for 400 vs the Seahawks and where is he now?
I could care less about pressures from him and Dunlap 
Cause the last time I checked all those pressures has meant
Very little cause the Bengals haven't beat a winning QB in YEARS 
pressures mean nothing if doesn't alter the design of the pass play. 
I've seen pressures only to see the QB still fire the ball for a 3rd down conversion.
This defense has lacked leadership from Atkins and Dunlap 
Ever since Burfict started declining 
Face it Atkins and Dunlap are coasting now and just collecting 
A paycheck.
They are going 75% trying not to get hurt 

[Catmandude123]

(11-11-2019, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: What do you expect the guy to do? Have 12 sacks a game to be worth it? He had 2 sacks, 2 TFL, and 2 QB hits in that game.  If you think that isn't good then you suck as a football fan.
Is he having a bad year for him? Sure but he is still one of the best at his position and he is the best player on our team.

There you go making it personal again.  Again he has three sacks in nine games and no sacks in seven games this year. That means that he was only a factor in two games. Against the Jags he had two sacks early then disappeared. The pressure the d line brings directly effects the whole opposing offense. Shutting down the run game and pressuring the QB wins games and while we are 0-9 guess what we aren't doing.

[J24]

(11-11-2019, 11:56 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Where was Geno when Kyler Murray drove down the field in the final 1:45 a few weeks ago ?
Where was Geno when the Steelers behind Mason Rudolph put up 24 on the Bengals ?
How many times has Geno Stonewalled a RB this year In the hole?
I could less about his 2 sacks vs the Jags. 
Yeah and Andy threw for 400 vs the Seahawks and where is he now?
I could care less about pressures from him and Dunlap 
Cause the last time I checked all those pressures has meant
Very little cause the Bengals haven't beat a winning QB in YEARS 
pressures mean nothing if doesn't alter the design of the pass play. 
I've seen pressures only to see the QB still fire the ball for a 3rd down conversion.
This defense has lacked leadership from Atkins and Dunlap 
Ever since Burfict started declining 
Face it Atkins and Dunlap are coasting now and just collecting 
A paycheck.
They are going 75% trying not to get hurt 

Wait what? Pressures are what Dlineman are judged by how can you not care about them.

(11-12-2019, 12:10 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: There you go making it personal again.  Again he has three sacks in nine games and no sacks in seven games this year. That means that he was only a factor in two games. Against the Jags he had two sacks early then disappeared. The pressure the d line brings directly effects the whole opposing offense. Shutting down the run game and pressuring the QB wins games and while we are 0-9 guess what we aren't doing.

Coming into this week Geno was tied for 5th in pass rush productivity with Aaron Donald(amongst DTs). Saying that the guy hasn't been good or isn't trying is just absurd.
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2019/11/8/20952350/bengals-weekly-lineman-midseason-review-of-the-trenches

[reuben.ahmed]

(11-11-2019, 02:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Could this possibly be just a bunch of bad coaches coaching badly and causing the entire team to regress?

The DL troubles are just a microcosm of what is happening with the entire team, save for special teams.

 

How much can coaching cause an "excellent" player to look and perform very poorly? Honest question.

I don't think an excellent player would put up with a coach's bullshit. There are few excellent players.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-11-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

That almost doesn't seem possible.  He had almost that many in the first game of the season!

[BengalChris]

(11-12-2019, 08:18 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: How much can coaching cause an "excellent" player to look and perform very poorly? Honest question.

I don't think an excellent player would put up with a coach's bullshit. There are few excellent players.

Bad schemes. Example, sending Billings out in coverage. How can a 340lb slow guy get out into the flat and cover anyone? We've seen that.

How about making Geno the spy on an athletic QB? We've seen that.

Predictable pass rush play calling. We've seen that.

Coaches want things done a certain way. Maybe that way isn't the way the player excel at.

Put up with coach's bullshit? What can they do about it? Quit the team? Get their agent to try and negotiate a trade? Be in concussion protocol and injury list for more than half a season? Retire?

Haven't we seen all those things this season?

 

[fredtoast]

(11-11-2019, 08:47 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Dunlap has a got a pass here for the last 2 years

Dunlap has been playing very well until this year.

According to ProFootballOutsiders for each of the last three seasons Dunlap has ranked top 30 in hurries and either first or second in the league in their "disruption" stat which includes batting passes and hitting the QB while throwing.  In 2018 Dunlap was 6th in "QB hits" and 10th in "knockdowns" (sacks + QB hits).

[impactplaya]

(11-12-2019, 03:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has been playing very well until this year.

According to ProFootball for each of the last three seasons Dunlap has ranked top 30 in hurries and either first or second in the league in their "disruption" stat which includes batting passes and hitting the QB while throwing.  In 2018 Dunlap was 6th in "QB hits" and 10th in "knockdowns" (sacks + QB hits).

Does PFF have a stat for disuptions in the 4th q.?
We really need defensive players that can make plays 
When the game is on the line. ?