Chase Young or Joe Burrow ?

[Murdock2420]

(11-29-2019, 12:45 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: #1OA drafted QBs: 24 total since 1970, 22 qualify @ 2 full years in NFL. 

Playoffs; Goff, Luck, Newton, Stafford, Smith, EManning, Palmer, Vick, PManning, Bledsoe, George, Aikman, Testeverde, Elway, Bartkowski, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (17) 77%

SBs; Goff, Newton, EManning, PManning, Bledsoe, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (9) 41%
SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%
Multiple SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%

HoF; PManning (lock), Aikman, Elway, Bradshaw. (4) 18%

Never made playoffs; Winston, Bradford, Russell, Carr, Couch. (5) 23%

Busts; Russell (1) 5%

(11-29-2019, 02:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: None of them were #1OA.

What you are both forgetting and can not over look is the factor in all draft picks known as the Bengal factor.

It is this amazing factor that allows even the most elite and sure fire lock of a pick to come in and under-perform with very few exceptions (A.J. Green, Munoz for example)

What you really need to look at before you say we need Burrow is this team's history of first round QB's


1969 - Pick 5 - Greg Cook - His season started spectacularly, as he led the Bengals to a 3–0 record. However, in game three versus Kansas City, Cook felt a pop in his right (throwing) shoulder after being tackled by linebacker Jim Lynch and missed the next three games. 


Despite this, Cook went on to pass for 1,854 yards and led the Bengals to wins over the Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders, two of the three best teams in the AFL. His 9.411 yards per pass attempt and 17.5 yard per completion are rookie records that still stand. Cook was UPI's choice for AFL Rookie of the year.

The rotator cuff began deteriorating after the season; during surgery, it was revealed that Cook also had a partially detached biceps muscle. After three operations proved futile, he retired. A 1973 comeback attempt failed and Cook retired permanently. The NFL Network NFL Top Ten series named Cook the #1 One Shot Wonder in NFL history




1979 - Pick 3 - Jack Thompson - Played for six seasons and only completed more then 50% of his passing attempts in one year and that was for Tampa Bay.


1992 - Pick 6 (how fitting) - David Klingler - The hot shot cannon arm wonder from Houston, who had no offensive line and washed out of the league after six seasons. 


1999 - Pick 3 - Akili Smith - Do I even need to say anything here??? we all know how bad this guy was.

2003 - Pick 1 - Carson Palmer - To this day I love Carson Palmer and support him flipping off Mike Brown and leaving, but talk about wasted talent and injuries and what if's surrounding a guy. Never won a playoff game with him here despite all the talent he had, and it took a trip to Oakland then Arizona for him to once again look like the guy he was in college.



Now, let's look at where the two QB's who have won playoff games were drafted.

1971 - Round 3 - Pick 67 - Ken Anderson


1984 - Round 2 - Pick 38 - Norman "Boomer" Esiason






If you like Burrow why would you wish it upon him to see his career wither and die here in Cincy??

We got close with another 2nd rounder in Dalton, so with this year's crop of QB's I say take the edge rusher or trade down to get more picks and take a guy at 33 in the 2nd round like Hurts or Love and trust in history.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 01:56 AM)J24 Wrote: Ok then insert Winston over Mariota and yes all of the guys I mentioned were busts.

Winston isn't a bust. 4,000 yards twice, averages 24TDs a year. 90+ rating twice. 

He's just a turnover machine. That doesn't make him a bust. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2019, 02:57 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: What you are both forgetting and can not over look is the factor in all draft picks known as the Bengal factor.

It is this amazing factor that allows even the most elite and sure fire lock of a pick to come in and under-perform with very few exceptions (A.J. Green, Munoz for example)

What you really need to look at before you say we need Burrow is this team's history of first round QB's


1969 - Pick 5 - Greg Cook - His season started spectacularly, as he led the Bengals to a 3–0 record. However, in game three versus Kansas City, Cook felt a pop in his right (throwing) shoulder after being tackled by linebacker Jim Lynch and missed the next three games. 


Despite this, Cook went on to pass for 1,854 yards and led the Bengals to wins over the Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders, two of the three best teams in the AFL. His 9.411 yards per pass attempt and 17.5 yard per completion are rookie records that still stand. Cook was UPI's choice for AFL Rookie of the year.

The rotator cuff began deteriorating after the season; during surgery, it was revealed that Cook also had a partially detached biceps muscle. After three operations proved futile, he retired. A 1973 comeback attempt failed and Cook retired permanently. The NFL Network NFL Top Ten series named Cook the #1 One Shot Wonder in NFL history




1979 - Pick 3 - Jack Thompson - Played for six seasons and only completed more then 50% of his passing attempts in one year and that was for Tampa Bay.


1992 - Pick 6 (how fitting) - David Klingler - The hot shot cannon arm wonder from Houston, who had no offensive line and washed out of the league after six seasons. 


1999 - Pick 3 - Akili Smith - Do I even need to say anything here??? we all know how bad this guy was.

2003 - Pick 1 - Carson Palmer - To this day I love Carson Palmer and support him flipping off Mike Brown and leaving, but talk about wasted talent and injuries and what if's surrounding a guy. Never won a playoff game with him here despite all the talent he had, and it took a trip to Oakland then Arizona for him to once again look like the guy he was in college.



Now, let's look at where the two QB's who have won playoff games were drafted.

1971 - Round 3 - Pick 67 - Ken Anderson


1984 - Round 2 - Pick 38 - Norman "Boomer" Esiason






If you like Burrow why would you wish it upon him to see his career wither and die here in Cincy??

We got close with another 2nd rounder in Dalton, so with this year's crop of QB's I say take the edge rusher or trade down to get more picks and take a guy at 33 in the 2nd round like Hurts or Love and trust in history.

If we’re going to be too scared to do something based off history we might as well fold up shop. What we need is that guy that can overcome all this organizations shortcomings and turn the franchise around. That’s not going to be a DE.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 02:20 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Ryan Leaf? Todd Marinovich? David Klingler? Akili Smith? Johnny Manziel?...sorry I may have misunderstood your post but I decided to name just a few first round QB busts.

First overall draft pick in the draft. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2019, 03:09 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Winston isn't a bust. 4,000 yards twice, averages 24TDs a year. 90+ rating twice. 

He's just a turnover machine. That doesn't make him a bust. 

I wouldn’t consider Bradford a bust either tbh. A bust to me is someone who’s clearly terrible, and doesn’t last very long in the league (like Russell).

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 02:57 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: What you are both forgetting and can not over look is the factor in all draft picks known as the Bengal factor.

It is this amazing factor that allows even the most elite and sure fire lock of a pick to come in and under-perform with very few exceptions (A.J. Green, Munoz for example)

What you really need to look at before you say we need Burrow is this team's history of first round QB's


1969 - Pick 5 - Greg Cook - His season started spectacularly, as he led the Bengals to a 3–0 record. However, in game three versus Kansas City, Cook felt a pop in his right (throwing) shoulder after being tackled by linebacker Jim Lynch and missed the next three games. 


Despite this, Cook went on to pass for 1,854 yards and led the Bengals to wins over the Chiefs and the Oakland Raiders, two of the three best teams in the AFL. His 9.411 yards per pass attempt and 17.5 yard per completion are rookie records that still stand. Cook was UPI's choice for AFL Rookie of the year.

The rotator cuff began deteriorating after the season; during surgery, it was revealed that Cook also had a partially detached biceps muscle. After three operations proved futile, he retired. A 1973 comeback attempt failed and Cook retired permanently. The NFL Network NFL Top Ten series named Cook the #1 One Shot Wonder in NFL history




1979 - Pick 3 - Jack Thompson - Played for six seasons and only completed more then 50% of his passing attempts in one year and that was for Tampa Bay.


1992 - Pick 6 (how fitting) - David Klingler - The hot shot cannon arm wonder from Houston, who had no offensive line and washed out of the league after six seasons. 


1999 - Pick 3 - Akili Smith - Do I even need to say anything here??? we all know how bad this guy was.

2003 - Pick 1 - Carson Palmer - To this day I love Carson Palmer and support him flipping off Mike Brown and leaving, but talk about wasted talent and injuries and what if's surrounding a guy. Never won a playoff game with him here despite all the talent he had, and it took a trip to Oakland then Arizona for him to once again look like the guy he was in college.



Now, let's look at where the two QB's who have won playoff games were drafted.

1971 - Round 3 - Pick 67 - Ken Anderson


1984 - Round 2 - Pick 38 - Norman "Boomer" Esiason






If you like Burrow why would you wish it upon him to see his career wither and die here in Cincy??

We got close with another 2nd rounder in Dalton, so with this year's crop of QB's I say take the edge rusher or trade down to get more picks and take a guy at 33 in the 2nd round like Hurts or Love and trust in history.

You just said it all in your comments about Palmer. He's the only one that the Bengals had a chance to draft without having to wait to see who was left. In his second year starting, he had the Bengals as serious SB contenders and he was considered a top 3 QB in the entire NFL. 

If you have the #1 overall pick in the draft and a guy is the clear #1 (which Burrow is due to his stats and Tua's injury) you take him. If this was a Manning/Leaf, Luck/RG3, Winston/Mariota type year, then i would be 100% convinced they would screw up and take the wrong guy. I just don't get why people don't want to take a QB #1 "because Bengals" but they have no problem with taking a lower-tier guy in rd2, as if they're not more likely to screw that up. 

True thought, the Bengals, more than anyone else, would/will have the ability to kill any good/great QBs career. Doesn't mean i don't want them to try for "the guy" though. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 03:09 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: If we’re going to be too scared to do something based off history we might as well fold up shop. What we need is that guy that can overcome all this organizations shortcomings and turn the franchise around. That’s not going to be a DE.

And as stupid as this organization is, they can still see what a shitstorm this Oline is, so they will not go into next year with the same guys that have played most of this year. They'll at least try to imporve the line, as incompetent as they are. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 03:11 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wouldn’t consider Bradford a bust either tbh. A bust to me is someone who’s clearly terrible, and doesn’t last very long in the league (like Russell).

Exactly. Couch could and maybe should have that label too, but it's hard to give it to him simply because he played on a really crappy expansion Browns team that would switch QBs, HCs and GMs every couple years. 

[Murdock2420]

(11-29-2019, 03:09 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: If we’re going to be too scared to do something based off history we might as well fold up shop. What we need is that guy that can overcome all this organizations shortcomings and turn the franchise around. That’s not going to be a DE.

I would love to have a guy come in and change this culture but behind this o line with the current approach to Free Agency this is just going to end poorly. I hope I am wrong but the Bengals have shown me they can screw anything up. 

[coachmcneil71]

Just to be clear, I really like Joe Burrow! What's not to like? That said, this is the worst defense in the league....by far.
So, we bring Joe n at #1. Maybe he's able to help us score a few more points, maybe? With this oline it's not happening!!

Isn't going to matter when the defense is giving up 30 per game. In this division you win with defense! Been that way in the
North for a long time. Just ask the perenial playoff teams in the division.

You build GREAT teams with defense. A game manager at QB can win a SB as long as he has a run game, and a badass defense. This has been proven time and time again.
Dilfer-Balt, Johnson-Tampa, Ben , Brady, Bradshaw, and even Montana won SBs because their defense was that good! Manning-Denver, 85 Bears, even Brees and the mighty Saints offense won their SB with defense! Not offense!!

There are plenty more examples of this being the case throughout the leagues history.

[*Synric*]

(11-29-2019, 04:05 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Just to be clear, I really like Joe Burrow! What's not to like? That said, this is the worst defense in the league....by far.
So, we bring Joe n at #1. Maybe he's able to help us score a few more points, maybe? With this oline it's not happening!!

Isn't going to matter when the defense is giving up 30 per game. In this division you win with defense! Been that way in the
North for a long time. Just ask the perenial playoff teams in the division.

You build GREAT teams with defense. A game manager at QB can win a SB as long as he has a run game, and a badass defense. This has been proven time and time again.
Dilfer-Balt, Johnson-Tampa, Ben , Brady, and Bradshaw won SBs because their defense was that good! Manning-Denver, even Brees and the mighty Saints offense won their SB with defense! Not offense!!
There are plenty more examples of this being the case throughout the leagues history.

Lol you mention some of the all time great at QB and say they won superbowls with defense. 


Look you win superbowls with a great team but there is 1 position that effects the game more than any other and that's QB. If you have a shot a a real franchise star QB you take it no matter what because its the most important position and hardest to find.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-29-2019, 04:05 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Just to be clear, I really like Joe Burrow! What's not to like? That said, this is the worst defense in the league....by far.
So, we bring Joe n at #1. Maybe he's able to help us score a few more points, maybe? With this oline it's not happening!!

Isn't going to matter when the defense is giving up 30 per game. In this division you win with defense! Been that way in the
North for a long time. Just ask the perenial playoff teams in the division.

You build GREAT teams with defense. A game manager at QB can win a SB as long as he has a run game, and a badass defense. This has been proven time and time again.
Dilfer-Balt, Johnson-Tampa, Ben , Brady, Bradshaw, and even Montana won SBs because their defense was that good! Manning-Denver, 85 Bears, even Brees and the mighty Saints offense won their SB with defense! Not offense!!

There are plenty more examples of this being the case throughout the leagues history.

Understood.  However, a team still has to build a lead, in order to have one for a defense to protect.  You can't win, if you don't score.  This current team's inability to score points surpasses the defenses inability to stop other teams from scoring points.

[Catmandude123]

Chase Young zero tackles and zero sacks in the biggest game of the season. If college tackles can stop him how will he fare against NFL quality players?

[*jason*]

(11-30-2019, 07:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Chase Young zero tackles and zero sacks in the biggest game of the season. If college tackles can stop him how will he fare against NFL quality players?

He was constantly in the backfield... That's not stopping him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-30-2019, 08:02 PM)jason Wrote: He was constantly in the backfield... That's not stopping him.

[*Synric*]

(11-30-2019, 08:02 PM)jason Wrote: He was constantly in the backfield... That's not stopping him.

Not really...He didnt have a pressure the entire first half....he probably finished the night with 3 or so and never touched the QB. He did set the edge really well against the run even if he didnt have any tackles. Overall Michigan handled him fairly well. 

Doesnt take away from his season though he is still a contender for #1 overall.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-30-2019, 09:22 PM)Synric Wrote: Not really...He didnt have a pressure the entire first half....he probably finished the night with 3 or so and never touched the QB. He did set the edge really well against the run even if he didnt have any tackles. Overall Michigan handled him fairly well. 

Doesnt take away from his season though he is still a contender for #1 overall.

Exactly, his presence opened the door for a couple of other defenders to get to Patterson, a time or two.  Chase Young is a great player, just not 1st overall good..

[coachmcneil71]

(11-29-2019, 04:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Understood.  However, a team still has to build a lead, in order to have one for a defense to protect.  You can't win, if you don't score.  This current team's inability to score points surpasses the defenses inability to stop other teams from scoring points.

 This defense has been Swiss cheese with the exception of maybe three games. Go do some research on where they are ranked in NFL history. HISTORY!! Then get back with us.

The offense will not be getting any better in Zac/McVay's offense. The league has caught on to it. That's how this league works. If you want offensive success, you need to start praying for a new OC, HC, or play caller.

(11-30-2019, 09:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Exactly, his presence opened the door for a couple of other defenders to get to Patterson, a time or two.  Chase Young is a great player, just not 1st overall good..

Nearly every scout and GM in the league considers Young to be by far the best NFL immediate ready player in this draft.

He's what's called " a sure thing!" Joe played great tonight against a 5 loss team! A 5 loss team and they played at night, in Death Valley. Joe played as he should have. Ts, both Chase and Jefferson are future NFL WRs. Jefferson will be a star WR in the league. Helps having those guys to throw it to.

Let's be honest here, both are terrific players. 
It comes down to either drafting Burrow, then a bunch of O-Line and LBs, or getting the consensus #1 defender in this class AND a very good QB to boot. This is at the very least a two year rebuild. Neither player will carry this team to a winning record in their rookie season. Especially, with this overmatched coaching staff for a handicap.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-01-2019, 01:11 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote:  This defense has been Swiss cheese with the exception of maybe three games. Go do some research on where they are ranked in NFL history. HISTORY!! Then get back with us.

The offense will not be getting any better in Zac/McVay's offense. The league has caught on to it. That's how this league works. If you want offensive success, you need to start praying for a new OC, HC, or play caller.

Nearly every scout and GM in the league considers Young to be by far the best NFL immediate ready player in this draft.

He's what's called " a sure thing!" Joe played great tonight against a 5 loss team! A 5 loss team and they played at night, in Death Valley. Joe played as he should have. Ts, both Chase and Jefferson are future NFL WRs. Jefferson will be a star WR in the league. Helps having those guys to throw it to.

Let's be honest here, both are terrific players. 
It comes down to either drafting Burrow, then a bunch of O-Line and LBs, or getting the consensus #1 defender in this class AND a very good QB to boot. This is at the very least a two year rebuild. Neither player will carry this team to a winning record in their rookie season. Especially, with this overmatched coaching staff for a handicap.

You don’t draft any player (especially a QB) for just their rookie season. You grab Burrow because you might not get a better chance at an elite franchise QB.

[coachmcneil71]

(11-29-2019, 04:17 PM)Synric Wrote: Lol you mention some of the all time great at QB and say they won superbowls with defense. 


Look you win superbowls with a great team but there is 1 position that effects the game more than any other and that's QB. If you have a shot a a real franchise star QB you take it no matter what because its the most important position and hardest to find.

As for you and your "Lol", we all know that you really like Joe. I wouldn't be upset if we draftd him. He's good! 
Ts, I could blast you out of the water with QB stats and numbers, but I'm not going to. You can do your own research.
Just go look at the HOF QBs and it will show you what the success rate is for drafting QBs. I already told you what it was once, around 54% in round one.

So basically half of the QBs in the HOF weren't drafted in round one. Half!! 

As far as SF, NE, and Pitt winning some of their SBs with defense; I "LOL" at you! 
Even more so since he you're a Bengals fan.

 You need look no further than 89' SB to see where SF won a SB with defense. Montana had maybe two good drives in the entire game. The score was 16-13 until the game winning drive. Jerry Rice 215 yards receiving, most if it in the 4th Q, and the D essentially won that SB for SF. Yes, Taylor scored the winner, but 16-13 with 3 minutes left in that game. Boomer and the Bengals high octane offense never scored a TD in that game!! This after rolling through the AFC, while putting up ridiculous numbers! Ronnie Lott, Bill Romanowski...ect..Hmmm, yeah!

Harrison returns an interception for a TD on the last play of the first half for Pitt in 09'. Remember the famed group named The Steel Curtain n the 70's? Uhm, yeah.....

Now onto New England! They won a SB when Malcolm Butler made an int to seal the deal in 14'. All Russ or Lynch had to do was run it in from the one. Yes, TB was the MVP with 4 tds, but he also threw two picks!! Now, a question for you!! If NE wins it again this season who gets the credit? TB or their defense?