Joe Burrow vs Trevor Lawrence

[Catmandude123]

(12-29-2019, 03:33 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Wow... Burrow is only a sure thing draft wise.  His success is not guaranteed.

No.  My proposal has always been who do you take IF they were in the same draft.  As to my previous post, I did post how it COULD happen, but that is only due to people claiming incorrectly that Lawrence is off the table.  Truth is we don't know where we will be picking in 2021 and we don't know if Lawrence will declare.  Odds are that he does declare and odds are we will have a top 10 pick.  It is rare for a team to go 1OA twice in a row, but not unheard of.  So we do have a reason to compare the 2 QBs.

Finally, it sounds like you are taking sides.  I can't crack confidence in fans.... either Burrow is the guy or he isn't.  Either the other fans are happy with the selection or they aren't.  The purpose of the thread is who do you take... Lawrence or Burrow.  We know what the Bengals are doing, we know who they are taking and we know that even if we have the 1OA next year, we won't be taking Lawrence.  So all of that is moot and not important.  The question is for the fans to pick who they would take between the 2.

I am going to state my point of view as an analogy. Someone is going to give me a 2020 Lamborghini but I refuse because the ever so slight chance someone may give me a 2021 Bugatti next year. Sounds pretty stupid right?

[SunsetBengal]

(12-29-2019, 05:06 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I am going to state my point of view as an analogy. Someone is going to give me a 2020 Lamborghini but I refuse because the ever so slight chance someone may give me a 2021 Bugatti next year. Sounds pretty stupid right?

(In my best John Gruden voice)  Cat-man-dude 1-2-3, what can you say about this guy?  I mean he lays as savage a response, as I've ever read on a football message board.  The folks over at thebengalsboard.com should feel very comfortable with him laying down the smack on an utterly preposterous OP...  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-29-2019, 02:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: How can I not know his name... everyone post it and talks about him.  Get over the extra letter that happens from time to time.  Burrow or Burrows, you know who the person is.  This is such a weak position.

You can play the what if game and it is simple here let me show you.

Is Burrows better than Mahomes, Jackson, Mayfield, Watson or Lawrence.  If he is NOT then you don't take him.  Why take a guy you aren't 100% sure on?  Burrows will have to play against these guys while he is in the league and IF he isn't the guy that can beat them then why waste the pick?

My stance on Burrow has been pretty clear.  He will be the pick, it will be a mistake.   Now I am comparing him to other QBs to get other posters take on which of these 2 they would take.  Looks like they will take Burrow and that is fine. 

Of course all they seem to go on are these year's numbers.  Post a pass that the WR made a great adjustment in order to make the catch.  Of course the QB gets credit for the completion, but that is more on the talent of the WR making a great adjustment.

The Bengals had to play Brady this year so by your logic the Bengals shouldn’t draft a QB unless they can draft one better than Brady. But, only if the Bengals are 100% sure this yet to be named QB a s better than Brady. That is a weak position. There is no such thing as a sure thing in the draft. Burrow is a very good, but not perfect, QB prospect because there aren’t any perfect prospects. Including Brady when he was in the draft.

Instead of discussing hypothetical situations that are highly unlikely to happen such as a team trading away the chance to draft Lawrence to the Bengals, why don’t you actually discuss valid criticisms of Burrow like is he the product of a system or a one year wonder vs natural progression via hard work and experience?

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2019, 01:48 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Nah it's totally fine.  All we have to do is:

1) Hope Lawrence declares next year.
2A) Hope we win less than 2 games next year.
2B) Hope that the Bengals are willing to give up the farm to trade up to #1 overall.
3B) Hope that whatever team is picking #1 next year is even willing to accept that offer.  

Perfectly realistic scenarios that we can totes plan around.

4. Hope Lawrence doesn't suffer major injury
5. Hope Lawrence doesn't decide to play baseball.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 05:06 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I am going to state my point of view as an analogy. Someone is going to give me a 2020 Lamborghini but I refuse because the ever so slight chance someone may give me a 2021 Bugatti next year. Sounds pretty stupid right?

Your analogy is a bad one.  You are making the assumption that either player are the vehicles you are putting toward them.  Both could actually be bad, did you ever think of that?

How it also fails is that you take the best player. Period.  So which car is better the Bugatti or the Lamborghini?  At those levels it comes down to preference. 

3rd... it isn't about passing on something good now for something good later.  It is about who you take, Burrow or Lawrence IF they were in the same draft.  Lawrence wasn't able to declare this year because of the silly rules.  If he were able to be drafted would you take Burrow still or pass on him for Lawrence?

So, I am not calling you stupid, but your analogy doesn't fit and is stupid.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 06:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Bengals had to play Brady this year so by your logic the Bengals shouldn’t draft a QB unless they can draft one better than Brady. But, only if the Bengals are 100% sure this yet to be named QB a s better than Brady. That is a weak position. There is no such thing as a sure thing in the draft. Burrow is a very good, but not perfect, QB prospect because there aren’t any perfect prospects. Including Brady when he was in the draft.

Instead of discussing hypothetical situations that are highly unlikely to happen such as a team trading away the chance to draft Lawrence to the Bengals, why don’t you actually discuss valid criticisms of Burrow like is he the product of a system or a one year wonder vs natural progression via hard work and experience?

What type of mental gymnastics did you have to do to come to this conclusion?

The logic is that IF Lawrence were eligible for the draft and he declared and you had Burrow and Lawrence, both available to you with this 1st pick, who do you take?

The lack of actual responses to the poll and thread and more of "Why are you asking this?" seems to indicate that some fans are scared that Burrows may not be the answer for us.  I know that I have been accused of "scaring" fans, but either you like Burrow enough to take him no matter who he is up against or you don't.

I have already posted the criticisms of Burrow, it is in the 1st post.  However this board should also be about this hypothetical situations to compare the 2 prospects that will be facing off in a few years.  That is IF Burrows last that long.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 05:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: (In my best John Gruden voice)  Cat-man-dude 1-2-3, what can you say about this guy?  I mean he lays as savage a response, as I've ever read on a football message board.  The folks over at thebengalsboard.com should feel very comfortable with him laying down the smack on an utterly preposterous OP...  

If bad analogies are your thing then sure...

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 04:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: In the same draft, I would take Burrow.  The margin by which Burrow has outplayed Lawrence is much bigger than the margin Lawrence outplayed him last year.  Their stats over the last two years...

Burrow 590/857 68.8% 8102 yards 71 TD's 11 Int's

Lawrence 509/767 66.4% 6711 yards 66 TD's 12 Int's

Burrow also has the edge in rushing yards (710 to 691) and rushing TD's (11 to 9).

On top of that, Burrow has done it in a tougher conference and done it in a pro style offense.  Lawrence has better physical traits, but a lot of the hype with him was that he was good in year one and should only improve.  He has really only improved slightly in year 2.

Finally someone with the sense to see the question and post actual thoughts and rebuttals.

What you say about Lawrence is true, but the point is that he did improve.  The numbers are similar but I give the edge to Lawrence because Lawrence has done it for longer, which speaks of sustained success.

If not for the year he had, Burrow may not even be in discussion.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 03:56 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I don't know who this Fred Johnson guy is I didn't know he was on the team but he's doing well at left tackle

We seen players do well at the end of seasons before and then fall off the radar the next year.  I hope Johnson continues to play well, but the song and dance routine of players like him playing well and then disappearing the following season is an old one for the Bengals.

I remember Westerman playing well against the Ravens that we won and sent the Bills to the Playoffs.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 04:37 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Let's just cut the pretense and get right to the bottom line:

We are not going to draft Trevor Lawrence.  Best let that go.

Or... on a Message Board we actually discuss 2 players that play the same position and 1 will be on the team and the other could have been an option if not for the rules.

It is OK to talk hypothetically... unless this board has a rule against it.  I haven't seen anything in the CoC to suggest it is a violation to have a poll like this.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 04:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Literally no one on this board has said that. No one. Yet, you keep saying it's a thing. You're putting words in people's mouth so that you can argue against an absurd position that nobody actually believes. 

It has been inferred multiple times.  Will anyone be brave enough to stand behind Burrow and call for him to be more successful than Dalton?  No.  They will say he is better than Dalton but then stay silent if he has bad seasons. 

They are behind him now, but it won't be long before they are against him.

This board is starting to bore me.  I think I may just move on.  I wish I could say it was fun but it wasn't, unfortunately.  There doesn't seem to be anything of substance being posted and even hypothetical situations that should be there for people to think get bashed.

Have fun.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-29-2019, 06:44 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What type of mental gymnastics did you have to do to come to this conclusion?

The logic is that IF Lawrence were eligible for the draft and he declared and you had Burrow and Lawrence, both available to you with this 1st pick, who do you take?

The lack of actual responses to the poll and thread and more of "Why are you asking this?" seems to indicate that some fans are scared that Burrows may not be the answer for us.  I know that I have been accused of "scaring" fans, but either you like Burrow enough to take him no matter who he is up against or you don't.

I have already posted the criticisms of Burrow, it is in the 1st post.  However this board should also be about this hypothetical situations to compare the 2 prospects that will be facing off in a few years.  That is IF Burrows last that long.

I’m using your logic. You’re the one who wants to compare Burrow to NFL QBs and then state you wouldn’t draft Burrow if you weren’t 100% sure he was better than those QBs.

Are you married? Or have a girlfriend? Why? When Miley Cyrus is single and you might marry her next year. All ya gotta do is move to TN or CA, randomly run into her on the street, start dating, have her fall in love with you, propose, then get married. Now Miley’s not my cup of tea, but you seem like someone who would love them some Miley Cyrus. If not, my apologies. But, you get the point because there is a greater hypothetical chance you’ll marry Miley Cyrus next year than the Bengals will draft Trevor Lawrence.

I think the lack of responses indicates more of a problem with your hypothetical premise than fans afraid of drafting Burrow.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-29-2019, 07:11 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m using your logic. You’re the one who wants to compare Burrow to NFL QBs and then state you wouldn’t draft Burrow if you weren’t 100% sure he was better than those QBs.

Are you married? Or have a girlfriend?  Why? When Miley Cyrus is single and you might marry her next year. All ya gotta do is move to TN or CA, randomly run into her on the street, start dating, have her fall in love with you, propose, then get married. Now Miley’s not my cup of tea, but you seem like someone who would love them some Miley Cyrus. If not, my apologies. But, you get the point because there is a greater hypothetical chance you’ll marry Miley Cyrus next year than the Bengals will draft Trevor Lawrence.

I think the lack of responses indicates more of a problem with your hypothetical premise than fans afraid of drafting Burrow.

There are some terrible analogies... Miley Cyrus?  Gross.

I said that if there are any doubts about him being the guy... you don't draft him.  You somehow with your impeccable intellect came with the wrong conclusion. 

It isn't just the lack of response but the open hostility.  That means there is fear there.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-29-2019, 11:30 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Again he point is knowing how Burrow stacks up compared to other QBs.  People always want the best QB, which is a mistake as the right QB is usually the better option.  However if we want the best and we have 2 QBs right now that are coming into the league, Burrow this year and Lawrence next year, then it is prudent to look at who is the better prospect and take that one.

I disagree that we miss out on Lawrence from the perspective of competent management, but we both know that we don't have that and in reality you are right, we would miss out on Lawrence.

You have answered that Lawrence is the better QB...

That is the point of the thread.  Quit looking for angles.  There isn't any.

Now the way to go about Lawrence from a competent management standpoint.  This year we take Thomas and work on solidifying that OLine.  Even if great Andy shows up and we have the 32nd pick in the draft we can trade up (even if it by a lot) to draft Lawrence next year.  It depends one where we are exactly but again I use the extremes to show the possibility.  We trade Dalton (after Tagging him) and our 1st round pick and the following year's 2nd round that could be a conditional 1st, to the team that has the 1st pick.  If that team doesn't want/need Dalton then trade 2 1st round picks and a 3rd that could be conditional to 2nd.

This way, you have an OLine and a QB for the future.

Geez, I don’t know. Is Thomas better than Whitworth? Pace? Ogden? Munoz? If you aren’t 100% sure the Bengals should probably draft someone else.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-29-2019, 07:19 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: There are some terrible analogies... Miley Cyrus?  Gross.

I said that if there are any doubts about him being the guy... you don't draft him.  You somehow with your impeccable intellect came with the wrong conclusion. 

It isn't just the lack of response but the open hostility.  That means there is fear there.

Based upon this thread you seemed like a guy who likes to make bad decisions. So I guessed Miley Cyrus. Maybe Lindsey Lohan?

Open hostility like insulting someone’s intelligence? Bengals.com has a safe place on their message board with Denny if you need one.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2019, 03:21 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: You don't have to listen to my "I told you so"... I will have it written down for you to read.
 

Sorry, you don't get an "i told you so" in any shape, manner or form. You look to be the biggest Dalton backer around here and he hasn't won jack shit besides regular season games and even then, he's been average to below more than not, and you poo pooo current QBs that have had success and are clearly better than Dalton. 

You.Get.Nothing.

[Big Boss]

(12-29-2019, 06:56 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Or... on a Message Board we actually discuss 2 players that play the same position and 1 will be on the team and the other could have been an option if not for the rules.

It is OK to talk hypothetically... unless this board has a rule against it.  I haven't seen anything in the CoC to suggest it is a violation to have a poll like this.

There is zero joy in discussing a hypothetical that has no basis in reality or objective thinking.  

Sorry, fam.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-29-2019, 06:51 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Finally someone with the sense to see the question and post actual thoughts and rebuttals.

What you say about Lawrence is true, but the point is that he did improve.  The numbers are similar but I give the edge to Lawrence because Lawrence has done it for longer, which speaks of sustained success.

If not for the year he had, Burrow may not even be in discussion.

So during the past two years Lawrence and Burrow both improved, but you give the edge to Lawrence because he has improved longer? Are Clemson years like dog years compared to LSU years?

And if Burrow didn’t improve he wouldn’t be in the discussion? What was it you just wrote? Something about, “the point is he did improve.” How did you forget your point from one paragraph to the next?

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2019, 06:44 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What type of mental gymnastics did you have to do to come to this conclusion?


The lack of actual responses to the poll and thread and more of "Why are you asking this?" seems to indicate that some fans are scared that Burrows may not be the answer for us. 

*asks question then pulls the same exact stunt just a few lines later*

OP: "hmm. let's come up with a hypothetical poll. no real reason, i just want to claim a bunch of stuff that's not true and base it all on 'what if' instead of something that's concrete and happening in about 4 months."

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2019, 06:51 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Finally someone with the sense to see the question and post actual thoughts and rebuttals.

What you say about Lawrence is true, but the point is that he did improve.  The numbers are similar but I give the edge to Lawrence because Lawrence has done it for longer, which speaks of sustained success.

If not for the year he had, Burrow may not even be in discussion.

You are too much. The stats he provided are stats from each IN THE LAST 2 YEARS. 

That very last line is lolercopter-worthy. If my Uncle didn't have a dick, he'd be my aunt.