Stop comparing Joe Burrow to Dalton

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2020, 02:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You really think sack numbers are an indication of movement in the pocket?

No.

Like a great number of things Fred is fluid on this. Deshaun Watson has been sacked over 100 times the last 2 years and Russell Wilson has been sacked 99 and counting and it's not because they have poor pocket presence. It's because they look to extend the play and don't look to pad their "quickest release in the NFL" stat.

[Sled21]

I haven't read through this thread, but the title on it's face makes no sense. Burrow will supposedly replace Dalton. Of course people are going to compare the two, just like the compared Dalton to Palmer.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I can't analyze footwork or delivery motion.  I can't analyze the complex route combination and or the way defenses disguise their coverage schemes to understand why the QB made good or bad decisions. 

And I definitely can not watch college QBs scorched inferior competition and tell which ones will transfer their skills to the NFL while others will flop.

Aren't you one of the people who complain about our small scouting department?  why do we need any scouts at all when we have an owner who (unlike you) actually played QB in college?  Surely he can just watch a few college games on TV and know which players are the best, right? 

I rarely bring up the size of the scouting department. As a matter of fact, i can't remember the last time i mentioned it. 

My biggest beef with the front office is, it seems that no matter what circumstance they're given, they **** it up and pick the wrong guy somehow, while a few other guys that they passed on went on to have good/very good careers. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-03-2020, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I will admit that I do not have the knowledge or resources to be an NFL scout.

How many college QB workouts are you going to be attending and when are your interviews scheduled with all of them?

Aren't you one of the guys who complains about our small scouting department?  What is the problem if all they need to do is watch a couple of college games on TV to know everything about the players?

Burrow has been on tv every week not in the backwoods of Cambodia. People who are professionals have deemed him THE best player in all of college football. Because you want to be contrary to anything positive and stir the pot to get reactions like you always do , your words hold little value to those who know your modus operandi.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-03-2020, 02:49 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I haven't read through this thread, but the title on it's face makes no sense. Burrow will supposedly replace Dalton. Of course people are going to compare the two, just like the compared Dalton to Palmer.

The meaning of the thread is that some scouts say that the best comp for Burrow is Andy Dalton.  I don't see that at all.  To me, Jake Fromm is the Dalton clone.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Guy we know yall called for Finley/McCarron/Driskel to start over Dalton. Not trying to dig up old post, because I really don't have to. It's common knowledge Dalton haters have swung and missed on these QBs' that were supposedly upgrades over Dalton. Like Dalton "haters" poor scouting of QB's is the worst kept secret on the boards. Now folks try to rewrite history because... well... they know they've swung and missed. But it's not that easy.

Yes. I wanted all 3 of those guys tried to see if they could do better.

Read that last sentence closely. I don't say put X in because he's a better QB. Especially those guys. I definitely did want to see if they could come in and do better because Dalton did nothing to get the Bengals over the playoff hump. 

YOU can't rewrite history and make it sound like i ever said the backup was better. I wanted to see if he was or not. 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like a great number of things Fred is fluid on this. Deshaun Watson has been sacked over 100 times the last 2 years and Russell Wilson has been sacked 99 and counting and it's not because they have poor pocket presence. It's because they look to extend the play and don't look to pad their "quickest release in the NFL" stat.

Finley did not extend anything.  He just got sacked twice as often, put the ball on the ground 3 times as often and completed less than half of his passes for 158 yards a game.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: Either the scout, Tobin and the FO sucks or they don't. But Dalton haters trying to now boost up our roster now after years of complaining about the FO "Model Model", failed first round picks and overall drafts (no probowlers since 2012) is just another twist and turn to downplay 5 straight playoff seasons.

Why folks won't wait until we go to the playoffs 5+ straight years to brag about the lameness of 5 straight playoff seasons is beyond me. Actually it isn't. They don't bother waiting until the record run is broken because they know it likely won't be (if it wasn't for Burrow), after 10 more lost seasons they'd look even worse shaming the run. So get it out now. As if not respecting it after 4 losing seasons wasn't bad enough, it will only get worse if Burrow for some unforeseen reason doesn't work out.

Don't take this wrong because i don't mean disrespect...but use your head. If Dalton made it to the playoffs his first 5 (4 years actually) years, but hasn't the last 4...why is that?

Because his roster was better. Specifically his Oline and defense. 

Give him a great supporting cast and he can help get to the playoffs, but not win. Woo freaking hoo. 

Give him a lesser supporting cast and he can do no better than sub .500.

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I will admit that I do not have the knowledge or resources to be an NFL scout.

How many college QB workouts are you going to be attending and when are your interviews scheduled with all of them?

Aren't you one of the guys who complains about our small scouting department?  What is the problem if all they need to do is watch a couple of college games on TV to know everything about the players?

Nope. I'm one of the guys that say it's more important to have good scouts than lots of scouts. Plus a good analytics department.

Also there are tons of people that watch give great player analysis during the season. Even this board has a few guys that know what they are talking about. You have multiple podcasts, PFF, The Draft Network, CBS etc...Facebook is a great resource actually there are groups of that are full of people like High School Peewee even College coaches. People love to talk football.

The OP linked some great YouTube Videos about Joe Burrow's throwing mechanics.

Edit: Paul Alexander's twitter is chalk full of great breakdowns for OL and DL.

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 02:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: My biggest beef with the front office is, it seems that no matter what circumstance they're given, they **** it up and pick the wrong guy somehow, while a few other guys that they passed on went on to have good/very good careers. 

Well that was quick. Less than one page later and we are back to picking wrong guys and building bad rosters....

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like a great number of things Fred is fluid on this. Deshaun Watson has been sacked over 100 times the last 2 years and Russell Wilson has been sacked 99 and counting and it's not because they have poor pocket presence. It's because they look to extend the play and don't look to pad their "quickest release in the NFL" stat.

Inevitably, i always find myself knee deep in this before i wonder WTF i'm doing, again. 

Why can't i just ignore the people that are so out of touch with reality?

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Synric Wrote: Nope. I'm one of the guys that say it's more important to have good scouts than lots of scouts. Plus a good analytics department.

Also there are tons of people that watch give great player analysis during the season. Even this board has a few guys that know what they are talking about. You have multiple podcasts, PFF, The Draft Network, CBS etc...Facebook is a great resource actually there are groups of that are full of people like High School Peewee even College coaches. People love to talk football.

The OP linked some great YouTube Videos about Joe Burrow's throwing mechanics.

Why do the Bengals need professional scouts at all if all that info is out there for everyone?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:03 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well that was quick. Less than one page later and we are back to picking wrong guys and building bad rosters....

Right...because either the team ALWAYS picks the right guys or ALWAYS picks the wrong guys. 

It's not possible to have a few good drafts and couple that with good/great coordinators, and then go back to picking the wrong guys. 


I'm done with this stupid bullshit. If people can't see that the world is fluid and not static...i'm not wasting my time explaining it to them any more. 

[jj22]

I just don't get the Dalton hate now that he is out the door. We should be thanking him for his time here and moving on. Folks still kicking him as he leave. I mean really, what the guy do to folks? He's a great character guy, overachiever given his limitations and 2nd round pick. He's never done anything wrong around here to be hated this passionately by folks. I understand the frustration when he was playing but now that the season is over and he's likely gone, why haven't we circled the wagon around him and appreciated his time here as we move on? The hate is far too serious for a qb who ended up with a winning record with THIS franchise after 9 years. Sure he didn't win a playoff game. But for this franchise, 5 straight playoff appearances should get a QB a tip of the hat as they leave.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Don't take this wrong because i don't mean disrespect...but use your head. If Dalton made it to the playoffs his first 5 (4 years actually) years, but hasn't the last 4...why is that?

Because his roster was better. Specifically his Oline and defense. 

Same reason Drew Brees only made the playoffs twice in his first 8 seasons and then had three straight losing seasons from '14 to '16.

The QB who can win with no talent around him is a myth.

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 03:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why do the Bengals need professional scouts at all if all that info is out there for everyone?

Why would you need the Media's in depth breakdown to make up your mind if only NFL Scout's opinions matter?

[depthchart]

(01-03-2020, 01:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Probably trade back and draft a different QB this year.  At this point it is hard to say who would be the best option.  The full draft evaluation has not even started.  People forget that at this time in 2013 Teddy Bridgewater was a top five pick.  In '15 Carson Wentz was a late-first early-second round prospect.  Same for Josh Allen in '17.

The trade value of a top 5 pick is generally grossly overvalued.  They often bring a shitload of picks in return yet over the last 20 years only about 1/3rd of the time has the best QB in the draft been selected in the top 5.  So we would have to look closely at what QB to target and how far top trade back.

Keep in mind that it takes two teams to trade.  Too often I hear fans say that if there is not a player available that we want at a certain pick that we should just trade back.  But sometimes that is impossible because there is not another team willing to give up decent value to trade up.

And I also may change my opinion on Burrows when the in-depth draft evaluation is complete.  But right now I am really concerned that he was never a good QB in 4 years and then became great over-night with a new coach and receivers.

Fair enough.

I saw Trent Dilfer get interviewed by Colin Cowherd a few days ago.

Colin asked Trent who he would take between Tua Tagovailoa and Joe Burrow.

Dilfer said "I think Tua is the single best prospect I have ever studied". He also said that Tua was "so uniquely gifted in so many ways" and that he could be a generational talent.

Dilfer also said that Tua was "head and shoulders" better than Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert.

I also heard Dilfer say that Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields were more gifted prospects than Joe Burrow. Dilfer implied that he has first hand knowledge of these players.

Dilfer did say that Burrow's football IQ was beyond his years.

It will be interesting to see how NFL scouts view these prospects and how they might rate them compared to other recent prospects that have been successful.

Joe Burrow is getting a lot of Media attention right now but as you say the full Draft evaluation process is still ahead.

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 02:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: My biggest beef with the front office is, it seems that no matter what circumstance they're given, they **** it up and pick the wrong guy somehow, while a few other guys that they passed on went on to have good/very good careers. 

This attack on the FO sounded pretty cut and dry. Not very fluid.....

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:15 PM)Synric Wrote: Why would you need the Media's in depth breakdown to make up your mind if only NFL Scout's opinions matter?

Most of the media experts get their info from NFL scouts.


Why do draft rankings change after the college season is over EVERY YEAR?

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Most of the media experts get their info from NFL scouts.


Why do draft rankings change after the college season is over EVERY YEAR?

Did you watch the videos in the OP? You should they have some excellent information. I implore you to expand the knowledge of the subject you post about regularly on a daily basis.