Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[Gdale_Bengal]

Yes I feel that drafting burrow would potentially mean winning more games but definitely not making the play offs. It's not about just drafting burrow though, it's making Mixon the star of the show and getting that line upgraded to protect Burrow so when he does drop back to throw he has some time. Give him some roll outs, pl⁰ay action passes. We could see 6 maybe 8 wins next season? Its possible

[*bfine32*]

OP's just trolling.

When the subject becomes wins; it's not about wins

When the subject becomes individual numbers; it's not about numbers

I'm unsure what else is left.

[Luvnit2]

(01-04-2020, 08:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: OP's just trolling.

When the subject becomes wins; it's not about wins

When the subject becomes individual numbers; it's not about numbers

I'm unsure what else is left.

It is also not about 1 year either. The last and only QB Bengals took with #1 overall pick left Cincinnati with a losing record and also threw for less yards and passing TD's than Dalton and not even close in rushing TD's.

Thepoint was a roojie Joe Burrow will not be as good as a 10 year vet Dalton in year 1.

I don't see many arguments against his reasoning.

What would have Dalton stats been with his starting LT and great WR been in 2019??

We will never know.

[*bfine32*]

(01-04-2020, 09:04 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is also not bout 1 year either. The last and only QB Bengals took with #1 overall pick left Cincinnati with a losing record and also threw for less yards and passing TD's than Dalton and not even close in rushing TD's.

Thepoint was a roojie Joe Burrow will not be as good as a 10 year vet Dalton in year 1.

I don't see many arguments against his reasoning.

What would have Dalton stats been with his starting LT and great WR been in 2019??

We will never know.

Only in Cincy could you get this type of "reasoning".

Joe Burrow is the best QB in college, coming off a National semi-final game in which he scored 8 TDs and was incredible. He won the Heisman in record setting fashion. Bur somehow, someway there's no "reasoning" in suggesting he can do better than the 32nd ranked out of 32 starting QBs in the NFL. 

Funny how you try to use missing his starting LT as an excuse for his poor play. What year was that starting LT entering into in the NFL? 

[Luvnit2]

(01-04-2020, 09:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Only in Cincy could you get this type of "reasoning".

Joe Burrow is the best QB in college, coming off a National semi-final game in which he scored 8 TDs and was incredible. He won the Heisman in record setting fashion. Bur somehow, someway there's no "reasoning" in suggesting he can do better than the 32nd ranked out of 32 starting QBs in the NFL. 

Funny how you try to use missing his starting LT as an excuse for his poor play. What year was that starting LT entering into in the NFL? 

I think the point was again, many need to temper their expectations, if not Joe will be in the doghouse in year#1.

If he exceeds previous rookies, God bless him but he does need to put under a microscope in year one. Just my 2 cents.

Let's compare Joe Burrow to Joe Burrow, no AD, Peyton or Brady or other vets or past greats.

[Hoofhearted]

What does it matter if he’s a down grade next year? We’re not SB contenders anyway. But this is dumb. I’m not paying both my QBs almost 30 mil when other areas are in desperate need of upgrades

[Shake n Blake]

Dalton was about as NFL ready coming out of the draft as it gets, so I don't think his status as a 9th year vet really matters. Burrow is a superior prospect compared to Dalton and will be stepping into (hopefully) a better situation than Dalton did in 2019. Jonah will be back, Zac and staff will be entering year 2 and "seem" to have figured out the defense and run game. Hopefully we add a few other solid players as well.

We finished up 2-3 (could've easily been 3-2) so it's not hard to envision us doing better next year regardless of who the QB is, although I hope and think Burrow will be an upgrade. This front office certainly has some work to do though, and I don't think Burrow would've done any better with the 2019 version of this team.

I'm not sure if OP is hinting that we should keep Dalton and start him next year, but if so, I'd say that's be a very dumb way to spend $17 million when we have other areas we need to address. We just need to start Burrow and fix the team around him.

[Wes Mantooth]

Ok, somehow my original point was either misunderstood or has been changed to have different debates.I'm sure I could be partly to blame for that, as I'm sure some took a thread title to be overly sensitive about. Let me start to better try to explain my overall point, with a group of simple statements...

1.) I want Joe Burrow to start next year.
2.) I do not want Andy back @ 18 mil.
3.) I think Joe Burrow is the most exciting pick we've had since Carson.
4.) I think Joe Burrow could be a great, great player.
5.) I am not saying Joe Burrow is going to be terrible next year.
6.) I think our offense can and should be better next year.
7.) I think our team can and should be better next year.
8.) I am, in no way, saying I'd rather have Dalton start next year.
9.) I think Burrow is a must-start from day 1, and I think he needs experience immediately.
10.) NONE of this was meant as a knock on Burrow.

My point/position is simple. A good to great year for a rookie QB is almost always on par with at or near an average veteran QB.  That doesn't mean the stud rookie doesn't show greatness and inspire tremendous confidence moving forward. And by "average QB" Im not talking about some scrub like Mariotta or Joe Flacco this year. I'm talking a legitimate, solid QB, who ranks somewhere b/t 10-20 on overall skillset.

Despite this years numbers, I still consider Andy to fall in that range. He's not great, but he's not terrible. What he lacks in some areas he makes up in others.

I think an average, 10-20, level QB is about the ceiling from a rookie QB. And thats no knock on any rookie. It just points to how much learning and experience matters, and just how good even the "average" guys are.

Basically, I dont think Burrow on the 2020 Bengals wins you any more games than Dalton on the 2020 Bengals. Those wins will come from elsewhere. The strength of the line, improved coaching and playcalling, a better defense...

I just dont think you can list the addition of Burrow as upgrade for the 2020 year alone. Yet I see it mentioned as a reason all the time. I just think those reasons for improvement need to come from elsewhere.  Sorry to those I offended...

[Nicomo Cosca]

But Andy hasn’t been in that range for 3-4 years now...

10-20? Name me all the starting QB’s you’d rather have Dalton over?

[*Nately120*]

Hopefully Burrow isn't an instant upgrade over Dalton in the same way that ZT was an instant upgrade over Marvin.

[N_B]

(01-04-2020, 09:53 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the point was again, many need to temper their expectations, if not Joe will be in the doghouse in year#1.

If he exceeds previous rookies, God bless him but he does need to put under a microscope in year one. Just my 2 cents.

Let's compare Joe Burrow to Joe Burrow, no AD, Peyton or Brady or other vets or past greats.

This was a total non response to a great rebuttal to your prior post

[N_B]

(01-04-2020, 10:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Ok, somehow my original point was either misunderstood or has been changed to have different debates.I'm sure I could be partly to blame for that, as I'm sure some took a thread title to be overly sensitive about. Let me start to better try to explain my overall point, with a group of simple statements...

1.) I want Joe Burrow to start next year.
2.) I do not want Andy back @ 18 mil.
3.) I think Joe Burrow is the most exciting pick we've had since Carson.
4.) I think Joe Burrow could be a great, great player.
5.) I am not saying Joe Burrow is going to be terrible next year.
6.) I think our offense can and should be better next year.
7.) I think our team can and should be better next year.
8.) I am, in no way, saying I'd rather have Dalton start next year.
9.) I think Burrow is a must-start from day 1, and I think he needs experience immediately.
10.) NONE of this was meant as a knock on Burrow.

My point/position is simple. A good to great year for a rookie QB is almost always on par with at or near an average veteran QB.  That doesn't mean the stud rookie doesn't show greatness and inspire tremendous confidence moving forward. And by "average QB" Im not talking about some scrub like Mariotta or Joe Flacco this year. I'm talking a legitimate, solid QB, who ranks somewhere b/t 10-20 on overall skillset.

Despite this years numbers, I still consider Andy to fall in that range. He's not great, but he's not terrible. What he lacks in some areas he makes up in others.

I think an average, 10-20, level QB is about the ceiling from a rookie QB. And thats no knock on any rookie. It just points to how much learning and experience matters, and just how good even the "average" guys are.

Basically, I dont think Burrow on the 2020 Bengals wins you any more games than Dalton on the 2020 Bengals. Those wins will come from elsewhere. The strength of the line, improved coaching and playcalling, a better defense...

I just dont think you can list the addition of Burrow as upgrade for the 2020 year alone. Yet I see it mentioned as a reason all the time. I just think those reasons for improvement need to come from elsewhere.  Sorry to those I offended...

Andy this year was definitively a below average QB, if burrow hits 10-20 best in the league then he’s a clear upgrade

[masonbengals fan]

Veteran Burrow >>> Veteran Dalton

[Catmandude123]

(01-04-2020, 04:14 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Same ones saying Burrow will solve all our problems in 2020 were saying no way ZT loses more games than ML the previous year.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001094208/article/cowboys-interview-mike-mccarthy-marvin-lewis
They also said ML would never coach again.

Seriously, it is a lot of same posters.

Half of the teams in the playoffs this year have QBs with three or less years of starting experience. If Burrow is like any of them we may be able to turn the team around. Just what about that statement gets under your skin? Is it because I don't believe that the answer to our problems is not the same as yours? He may not be the answer in 2020 but he has out preformed every one of those QBs in his senior year of college. " doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results is the definition of insanity."

[RASCAL]

(01-04-2020, 02:48 PM)N_B Wrote: So you expect Burrow to be statistically worse than 90% of quarterbacks in 2020?  I would disagree

on this team???????? you bet your ass!!!

[2MinutesHate]

(01-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I know that Dalton wants to be traded or released. It'll be interesting to see if the Bengals really do it.

If they do, does that mean our starter will be either Burrow or Finley? Because, if so, then Burrow will likely start from week 1.

I kind of hope they don't get rid of Dalton. Let him start the season. Maybe the first 6 to 8 games, or until the bye week. And then, if he's deemed ready, start Burrow from that point.

Then we can really see if Burrow as a rookie is better than Dalton as a veteran.

It's hard to say either Burrow would be definitively better than Dalton because, as we know, there are two distinct Andys in that body. There's good Andy and bad Andy.

I think Burrow EASILY beats bad Andy. How he stacks up to good Andy as a rookie will be an interesting sight to see. I think Good Andy probably has a minor edge, but Burrow will likely eclipse even Good Andy by year 2.

Overall, I expect improvement from the QB position in 2020 for the simple fact that, if Bad Andy remains, Burrow is clearly better than him. And if Good Andy is prevalent, then we get more than 2 games of Good Andy, which is basically all we got this season.

It wouldn't surprise me if they do keep him around.  It costs nothing to keep him on the team besides a weekly game check.  I mean, if Burrow just isn't ready to play, better to let him sit behind Dalton and let Andy get banged up and beat down until he is ready.  Not to mention, I think Dalton would be a good mentor, much like Kitna was to Palmer. 

Frankly, I don't see us getting much in trade (if anything) for Dalton.  There will be too many better options out there.  Dalton's best hope to start is to get released and then win a QB competition in camp.  I don't see that happening either.  Dalton I think should settle into his next NFL role as a good backup QB that can really help a team that loses their starter.  He could probably make himself a cool $3-5 million a year in a support role.  Staying with the Bengals makes good financial sense, even if he gets cut and resigned.

He was good, but never great and his time is up in my opinion.

[Fullrock]

(01-05-2020, 11:51 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if they do keep him around.  It costs nothing to keep him on the team besides a weekly game check.  I mean, if Burrow just isn't ready to play, better to let him sit behind Dalton and let Andy get banged up and beat down until he is ready.  Not to mention, I think Dalton would be a good mentor, much like Kitna was to Palmer. 

Frankly, I don't see us getting much in trade (if anything) for Dalton.  There will be too many better options out there.  Dalton's best hope to start is to get released and then win a QB competition in camp.  I don't see that happening either.  Dalton I think should settle into his next NFL role as a good backup QB that can really help a team that loses their starter.  He could probably make himself a cool $3-5 million a year in a support role.  Staying with the Bengals makes good financial sense, even if he gets cut and resigned.

He was good, but never great and his time is up in my opinion.

You can't pay $17 million to a backup/mentor. Kitna was making peanuts compared to Dalton at the time. Keeping Dalton and his 17 mil salary when you can use that money to upgrade another much needed position makes little sense. I do think Dalton has some trade value, though it's not the 2nd round pick people like to think it is. I think they could get a 4th round pick for him and use it to draft a WR in this unbelievably deep WR draft class.

[muskiesfan]

(01-04-2020, 11:11 PM)N_B Wrote: Andy this year was definitively a below average QB, if burrow hits 10-20 best in the league then he’s a clear upgrade

While I doubt you will find many if any that refute that, there were plenty of other contributing factors to his poor season. By no means is that meant to defend him or absolve him of his issues, poor play, mistakes, or anything like that. Dalton is still a good QB. We should be able to find a trade partner and gain an additional draft pick while dumping his salary.

I understand that a lot of people can only focus on anything negative that relates to Dalton. I also understand that if you don't spew hate in his direction at every given opportunity, then you get labeled one of these ridiculous Ganger, Army, or whatever other childish name that would be more expected on a playground than adult conversation.

Whether or not he's an upgrade Year 1, Burrow could and should be an upgrade overall. It is time to grab our QB of the future and move forward in that direction. Burrow could be special and you just don't pass on that. However, for all of the good and the hope that Burrow brings doesn't mean everyone has to shit on Dalton. Whether people like it or not, he was a good QB. He did a lot of good for the team and he was a big part of helping turn this franchise into something better than a punchline. I understand this season was horrible and Dalton played his part in that, but there's no reason to throw out everything positive he's done for the team just because he's on his way out.

[muskiesfan]

(01-05-2020, 12:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You can't pay $17 million to a backup/mentor. Kitna was making peanuts compared to Dalton at the time. Keeping Dalton and his 17 mil salary when you can use that money to upgrade another much needed position makes little sense. I do think Dalton has some trade value, though it's not the 2nd round pick people like to think it is. I think they could get a 4th round pick for him and use it to draft a WR in this unbelievably deep WR draft class.

Here's the issue. We're all looking at this logically. $17.7m for a backup/mentor or even as a starter for 1 more year to allow your shiny new QB to ride the pine is ignorant. Whatever draft pick you get from trading Dalton is an asset. You get to dump his salary and try to improve through the draft all at once.

The biggest problem is the owner/President/GM does not think that way. What's worse is if we don't move on from Dalton, he'll get the lion's share of the hate when it will all be The Family's fault that he's still here.

[Nati#1]

Maybe we'll sign Tom Brady