Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[bengalguy71]

(01-07-2020, 01:13 PM)Okeana Wrote: Drafting a player is never a surefire thing to fix an organization and all you can do is evaluate each player's potential value to the team.  No one should question that Andy Dalton's time is coming to an end here in Cincinnati and we have to look to the future.  We have the #1 overall pick so just evaluate all the talent and take your guy.  I have very little faith in this staff tho because of last year's draft and specifically Drew Sample.  It's probably the most over evaluated and worst draft pick In my lifetime.   When your front office is making those kinds of decisions it's hard to get any optimism looking forward.  Which is why no one but braindead zombies when to Bengals games this year.  Shame on you if you spent a dollar on this team.

Agree Okeana.  Look at Jonah Williams last year.  It seems like these freak things seem to happen to this franchise way too often.

I will say this.  Despite all the foolishness with the Brown family, I think even MB will feel 'forced', if anything else, to trade Dalton and draft Burrow.

I believe there's a good chance that trade of Dalton could be the Bears.

IF that happens, barring any key season ending injuries on the Bears, I see them in the playoffs and winning a PO game just like the Titans did this year! 

[bengalguy71]

(01-07-2020, 01:15 PM)Okeana Wrote: oh as a side note.  Just think how great the Titans offense is this year and he's at best average.  What if the Titans picked up a legit QB, hell even Andy Dalton would be a pro bowler on that team.

IF an organization is as solid as the Pats or Ravens then you would probably have a dynasty like the Pats have been, and the Ravens will be if Jackson stays healthy, AND they keep talent on both sides of the ball.

Speaking of Brady and Jackson, they were 'drafted' as backups to learn under Bledsoe and Flacco (another very 'average' QB).

They didn't set college football on fire, and only got discovered because the starters got hurt!

[Catmandude123]

(01-07-2020, 11:25 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: So it's Andy's fault that the first game of the season that the Bengals loss? If I remember correctly he put on a clinic against the Seahawks and loss. He played his heart out and had one of his best games and the team still loss. Let me state that again, the TEAM still loss. This is a team game and it takes a team to win and to lose; one player cannot be blamed for the success or failures of the team. The TEAM needs to hold themselves accountable. 

Just like the last playoff game the Bengals were in; they should have won but the defense screwed it up and they loss. To many times the QB is blamed for the failure of the team because of the position, but the QB can't stop the other team offense, he can't make the catch, etc...

So you could have all pro bowl players and put me in as QB and it wouldn't be my fault when we lost? Preposterous ! Individual players need to do their best to be a winning team. Any chain is only as good as it weakest link. We have more than one weak link but to infer that Dalton isn't one of the most important ones is preposterous. BURROW 2020

[fredtoast]

(01-07-2020, 03:12 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: They didn't set college football on fire, and only got discovered because the starters got hurt!

Jackson won the Heisman and was drafted to replace Flacco.

[Dcity614]

(01-04-2020, 01:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So, I've seen a lot of people list Joe Burrow has a huge upgrade for next year, when trying to make the case for vast improvement in 2020. Sorry guys, but that's not at all likely or probable.

Long-term, yeah we all think and hope that Burrow will be a upgrade. Hopefully a tremendous one. But year 1, right out of the gate, I'm not sure how or why this idea is floating around so much. Even more puzzling, it's often represented as a stone-cold fact. i.e. "We'll have Burrow next year so that's a reason for 2020 improvement."

Fwiw, I wanted to title this as greater or equal to, but that symbol escapes my tablet. But the equal to portion of the equation... that's the best case scenario in this comparison. The best case scenario for a rookie QB, and an oustanding season, is that of at or near an average starting QB in the NFL. Which is what Andy is.

None of this is to say that Burrow won't make some throws that Andy can't or didn't. I'm sure he can and will. And none of this is to say our offense can't or won't improve either. It very well may. And as a result Burrow very will cohld post significantly better numbers.

But as a position grade, or evaluation or comparison, with simply taking everything else out of the equation (OL, talent, coaching, etc.) I don't know how this argument is easily made, much less won.  If you want or choose to believe this team is going to see a significant amount of immediate improvement then I think you need to find reasons other than Burrow is already an upgrade.

I'm not even a big Andy fan, never have been. I've always considered him average.  And I'm excited about Burrow and the fact we're finally getting a potential elite level QB. I hope he is great someday.  I just don't expect that this year

Its the Bengals, why would you expect anything?  But if everything goes great and the Bengals have a decent coaching staff hired, a healthy roster with maybe a healthy AJ Green, T Boyd, J Mix, healthy motivated OLine, and Joe Burrows, if that is what the Bengals have week 1 then I expect an upgrade than what you would see with Dalton.
I think hes great and I was and still am very disappointed in the Urban Meyer regime at OSU that pretty much forced him to transfer regardless of practice performance, etc.  Hopefully Joe and LSU beat Clemson and he declares for the draft soon after the championship to focus on next season with Cincinnati.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-07-2020, 05:39 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: So you could have all pro bowl players and put me in as QB and it wouldn't be my fault when we lost? Preposterous ! Individual players need to do their best to be a winning team. Any chain is only as good as it weakest link. We have more than one weak link but to infer that Dalton isn't one of the most important ones is preposterous. BURROW 2020

Going back to that first game I'm going to put the loss on the OL and Mixon. They couldn't get that ground game going. Yet I don't hear you asking for Mixon's replacement. 

Andy isn't perfect and many of the loses we endured under his play is not all on him. He just gets the flack because he is the QB. How about that defense from last year or this year? How about the loss to the Steeler during the playoffs; was it Andy's fault that the defense caused the penalty that gave the Steeler the win? Stop looking at one thing and look at the bigger picture. WR are not getting open, OL can't block, running game wasn't there for most of the season, lack of the defense ability to make the other team go 3 and out, etc... all of these add up and there is only so much one player can do and he did what he could for the Bengals. 

I'm grateful what Andy has done and I wish him success where ever he lands. I'm actually hoping he gets traded to the PATS and wins a SB. 

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Some of Dalton's throws this year have been Horrific Jameisesque. His pocket presence is abysmal. AJ Green didn't require him to be as accurate. He should be thanking AJ for his current contract

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-04-2020, 03:02 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I'd wager he doesn't throw three interceptions in less than a minute . I'd wager he won't lose his first four PO games. ETC....

We don't know the future. For all we know Burrow could throw 10 Int in one game. To many fans here think he will be the savior. I remember all of the Palmer threads as well and Palmer will save the franchise. Yet forced himself out of town because of how toxic things got. If you want Burrow to see success ask the FO to trade the 1st round pick with NE so Burrow can make and win a SB. Otherwise he has a high probability of failure if the Bengals don't fix their issues. 

I keep hearing FA and it will all be fixed, but the problem with that logic is the Bengals don't dabble all that much in FA, they use the draft. If ZT doesn't bring in FA do to the FO, the team take any decent offer and trade back in the 1st round. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-08-2020, 06:22 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote:  If you want Burrow to see success ask the FO to trade the 1st round pick with NE so Burrow can make and win a SB.  

To hell with that !!!!! If I have to suffer with the Bengals for years and years for nothing he can suffer while making millions. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-08-2020, 11:31 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Going back to that first game I'm going to put the loss on the OL and Mixon.  

I guess there is no way possible it could have been your boy Andy fumbling at the Seahawks 17 yard line while the Bengals were leading 17-14 in the third Quarter? Just like the rest of the Dalton Gang" it's never Andy's fault".

[Luvnit2]

(01-08-2020, 06:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: To hell with that !!!!! If I have to suffer with the Bengals for years and years for nothing he can suffer while making millions. 

So to recap you on record, players are your slaves or serve at your pleasure and you don't care about them personally to the point you want them to suffer if you suffer.

You are one class act. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-08-2020, 06:47 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So to recap you on record, players are your slaves or serve at your pleasure and you don't care about them personally to the point you want them to suffer if you suffer.

You are one class act. 

I was being facetious. Chill out dude its not that serious.

[fredtoast]

(01-08-2020, 06:42 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I guess there is no way possible it could have been your boy Andy fumbling at the Seahawks 17 yard line while the Bengals were leading 17-14 in the third Quarter? Just like the rest of the Dalton Gang" it's never Andy's fault".

Tghis is a perfect example of the difference between being critical of andy and being a troll.

Dalton had 418 passing yards, both tds, and a 106.5 passer rating.

The o-line allowed 5 sacks and produced just 34 rushing yards.

Without Dalton that game would not have been close, yet Cat blames him for the loss.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Yes Oline was a dumpster fire most of the year. bur especially 2nd half of the season many of the sacks Dalton took were on him not the OLine.

[Bengalitis]

Andy set a low bar for Burrow to surpass.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Unless Mike Brown is presented with “an offer he would be stupid to refuse” trade deal for the first pick in the draft, Andy Dalton is headed out of town and Joe Burrow will be drafted by the Bengals.

What I honestly fear is simply replacing Andy Dalton with Joe Burrow will satisfy many fans who will think the Bengals were only one player away from success. There are fans who rooted for Dalton to lose more than they wanted the Bengals to win and I don’t understand this.

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2020, 12:03 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Yes Oline was a dumpster fire most of the year. bur especially 2nd half of the season many of the sacks Dalton took were on him not the OLine.

Wrong.  In 2019 dalton continued to get rid of the ball faster than almost every other QB in the league.

If you want to see sacks blamed on the QB then watch the Finley games.  He was sacked TWICE as often as Dalton behind the same line.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2020, 02:52 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: None of that is relevant to the discussion. You can't just insert him on a improved roster, and becausevof improved stats, deem him the more capable QB.

And you can't have him play the 2019 season for the Cincinnati Bengals, under the same circumstances with the same players.

So, what's the point of this thread? Who's hypothetically better? 

um...ok

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2020, 05:00 PM)Synric Wrote: No one is saying that at all.... Us Burrow "fanboys" believe it's best to try for a franchise QB when we have the chance and then build around him.

Exactly. It's amazing how the butthurt flows so thick just because some fans want to find a better QB than Dalton. 

Bottles the mind...

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2020, 09:53 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the point was again, many need to temper their expectations, if not Joe will be in the doghouse in year#1.

If he exceeds previous rookies, God bless him but he does need to put under a microscope in year one. Just my 2 cents.

Let's compare Joe Burrow to Joe Burrow, no AD, Peyton or Brady or other vets or past greats.

I just don't get where this comes from. It's not like people are going on about how drafting Burrow means the Bengals are going to the playoffs next year. 

It's a thought process that's made up, mostly by people that either don't like "how Dalton was treated" or still want him as QB. Maybe even some that begrudginly, finally realize that it's time to move on but they're going to go out kicking and screaming, sure that just given one more chance he could get the Bengals back to the promised land.