Bengals Defense now 3-4 hybrid

[Au165]

(03-05-2020, 09:59 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: We ran Nickel over 60% of the time last year, which always has 4 down lineman anyways.

I don't see the need to be all up in arms over this; as AU mentioned it is still essentially a 4 down lineman front, with one of them standing instead of 3/4 point stance (Hubbard and Dunlap did it quite a bit).

We're still going to run 2 LBs out there, most plays.

Technically you could run a 4-2-5 which looks similar to nickel however the linebackers (or hybrid end linebackers) are standing up where an end would usually be. Again, it's just another look of a very similar formation. The nice thing here is you can roll coverage and have a backside linebacker bail and create some different looks. That is really what it comes down to, having OLB who are 80%-90% rushers but CAN drop when needed let's you give offenses more things to think about which is why many coordinators like the 3-4.

[fredtoast]

The NFL is a copycat league. Whenever somoen has a good new idea other teams immediately start doing the same.

So anyone see any other teams using 5 D-linemen like Lou did at the start of last season?

I am afraid Anarumo is in over his head. No telling what he menas by "hybrid" when he talks about a "3-4 hybrid". Last year fans were making jokes about dropping Hubbard into coverage, now they seem to think it is a great idea.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-05-2020, 10:02 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All I can say is whatever they were doing last season with the 2 LBer's wasn't working. So I hope whatever they're switching to works better. And I hope this means we're gonna get defense in free agency like I was thinking ?

You didn't notice that Pratt and Vigil were playing notably better, in the second half of the season?  (obviously, I'm not looking at the Baltimore game as an example, as the entire defense got their asses worn out that day)  They made some changes, getting rid of Brown and schematic adjustments, and the play on the field improved.  I'm not say all is now well, just that something happened, and things began improving as a result.

[Au165]

(03-05-2020, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The NFL is a copycat league.  Whenever somoen has a good new idea other teams immediately start doing the same.

So anyone see any other teams using 5 D-linemen like Lou did at the start of last season?

I am afraid Anarumo is in over his head.  No telling what he menas by "hybrid" when he talks about a "3-4 hybrid". Last year fans were making jokes about dropping Hubbard into coverage, now they seem to think it is a great idea.

This is where things are actually a bit muddy because it's all semantics. Those "5 D linemen" looks were actually just a  3-4 under front. The two widest "D linemen" were standing up so while on the roster they were called defensive linemen they were actually linebackers in those instances. People get too caught up in names and terms and sometimes don't see what is actually occurring. There are tons of teams that do what Lou did the only difference is their website guys list those guys as OLB instead of DE. 

As for the term hybrid, a lot of teams in the NFL run hybrid defenses. The patriots for years have run a hybrid defense and all of Belichick's disciples have ran them as well. It's nothing new, but fans like to think of teams being either a 4-3 or a 3-4 and that's not how NFL defenses look at themselves really anymore. Guys like Derwin James and now Isiah Simmons are becoming these highly sought after chess pieces that let coordinators break further out of traditional scheme definitions.

There was never anything wrong with Hubbard dropping into coverage. This also traces back to people getting too caught up on named position versus responsibility and ability.

[bengaloo]

(03-05-2020, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The NFL is a copycat league.  Whenever somoen has a good new idea other teams immediately start doing the same.

So anyone see any other teams using 5 D-linemen like Lou did at the start of last season?

I am afraid Anarumo is in over his head.  No telling what he menas by "hybrid" when he talks about a "3-4 hybrid". Last year fans were making jokes about dropping Hubbard into coverage, now they seem to think it is a great idea.

I'm not an X's and O's guy by any means, but when I saw Lou putting 5 DLmen out there, my only thought was he was just trying to get our best players on the field after realizing in training camp and preseason that we had no competent LB's to run any type of legit scheme around. Preston Brown was terrible, like literally embarrassingly awful. Vigil is decent with good LBs around him, and Pratt was totally green. It hurt the entire defense. Honestly when we let Brown go, I felt like there was a little bit of improvement just with that alone. As Pratt started playing better, Vigil even started looking better and so did the rest of the guys. Hardy Nickerson played way better than Brown, thats how bad Brown was.

I dont think we will know the real verdict on Lou until he has a complete roster on defense. I felt like our defensive roster was incomplete last year, with the LB situation. Its hard to judge a coach who was brought into that situation and had little time to fix it after he was hired. The lack of talent at LB had nothing to do with Lou or Taylor. That was all Marvin the LB whisperer.

[*Synric*]

(03-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is where things are actually a bit muddy because it's all semantics. Those "5 D linemen" looks were actually just a  3-4 under front. The two widest "D linemen" were standing up so while on the roster they were called defensive linemen they were actually linebackers in those instances. People get too caught up in names and terms and sometimes don't see what is actually occurring. There are tons of teams that do what Lou did the only difference is their website guys list those guys as OLB instead of DE. 

As for the term hybrid, a lot of teams in the NFL run hybrid defenses. The patriots for years have run a hybrid defense and all of Belichick's disciples have ran them as well. It's nothing new, but fans like to think of teams being either a 4-3 or a 3-4 and that's not how NFL defenses look at themselves really anymore. Guys like Derwin James and now Isiah Simmons are becoming these highly sought after chess pieces that let coordinators break further out of traditional scheme definitions.

There was never anything wrong with Hubbard dropping into coverage. This also traces back to people getting too caught up on named position versus responsibility and ability.

The Bengals met with Akeem Davis-Gaither again at the combine.

[RunKijanaRun]

Meh. A 3-4 hybrid is basically a 4-3.

[*ochocincos*]

Fine with the conversion more to a 3-4 as long as they stop with 3 DTs thing. Most teams don't run straight at you anymore for that strategy to be effective.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-05-2020, 10:11 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You didn't notice that Pratt and Vigil were playing notably better, in the second half of the season?  (obviously, I'm not looking at the Baltimore game as an example, as the entire defense got their asses worn out that day)  They made some changes, getting rid of Brown and schematic adjustments, and the play on the field improved.  I'm not say all is now well, just that something happened, and things began improving as a result.

Oh I agree they got better towards the end. But I'm not sure they were "that much better" ? I think you have to temper some of the elation and realize at least part of it was 4 of our last 5 games were against lower level NFL competition.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is where things are actually a bit muddy because it's all semantics. Those "5 D linemen" looks were actually just a  3-4 under front. The two widest "D linemen" were standing up so while on the roster they were called defensive linemen they were actually linebackers in those instances. People get too caught up in names and terms and sometimes don't see what is actually occurring. There are tons of teams that do what Lou did the only difference is their website guys list those guys as OLB instead of DE. 

As for the term hybrid, a lot of teams in the NFL run hybrid defenses. The patriots for years have run a hybrid defense and all of Belichick's disciples have ran them as well. It's nothing new, but fans like to think of teams being either a 4-3 or a 3-4 and that's not how NFL defenses look at themselves really anymore. Guys like Derwin James and now Isiah Simmons are becoming these highly sought after chess pieces that let coordinators break further out of traditional scheme definitions.

There was never anything wrong with Hubbard dropping into coverage. This also traces back to people getting too caught up on named position versus responsibility and ability.

Agree

In HS, which I know is far from the NFL and I'm talking years ago, lol we ran a base 5-2-4 with nose guard DT's and DE's 2 LBers 4 DB's. However towards the end of my career we starting running a monster defense with 3 LBers 2 plus the "monster" who had different responsibilities depending on play called, coverage of RB, mirror QB, rush etc. 

And on 3rd and long our DE's would often drop into coverage (we'd send in the quicker/smaller guys) basically morphing into a 3-4 defense. And this was in early 80's.

My point is very few if any teams run a true 3-4 or 4-3 anymore ! They're in hybrid or whatever you want to call it way more often than not. 

If you wanna call it a 3-4 sweet. I just hope they get better and I don't really care what it's called.

[Au165]

(03-05-2020, 11:57 AM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals met with Akeem Davis-Gaither again at the combine.

Yep, although his foot injury scares me but in the end he is a chess piece.

[jj22]

The good thing about the hybrid is that we no longer are beholden (that may be the wrong word) to taking "prototyped" DE's like we did for all those years under Marvin while passing up on some good ones who didn't fit the mode for players like Hunt and Clarke who did.

It should free us up to be willing to draft more players like Lawson.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-05-2020, 12:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yep, although his foot injury scares me but in the end he is a chess piece.

I've read a couple scouting reports saying he has some of the best potential coverage skills in the class. He needs some honing but it's there.

[bengaloo]

(03-05-2020, 10:20 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is where things are actually a bit muddy because it's all semantics. Those "5 D linemen" looks were actually just a  3-4 under front. The two widest "D linemen" were standing up so while on the roster they were called defensive linemen they were actually linebackers in those instances. People get too caught up in names and terms and sometimes don't see what is actually occurring. There are tons of teams that do what Lou did the only difference is their website guys list those guys as OLB instead of DE. 

As for the term hybrid, a lot of teams in the NFL run hybrid defenses. The patriots for years have run a hybrid defense and all of Belichick's disciples have ran them as well. It's nothing new, but fans like to think of teams being either a 4-3 or a 3-4 and that's not how NFL defenses look at themselves really anymore. Guys like Derwin James and now Isiah Simmons are becoming these highly sought after chess pieces that let coordinators break further out of traditional scheme definitions.

There was never anything wrong with Hubbard dropping into coverage. This also traces back to people getting too caught up on named position versus responsibility and ability.

That is a good breakdown. I do notice though, that on places like Walter Football, they will rate players differently for the 4-3 and 3-4. For instance Benito Jones isnt listed very high as a 4-3 DT but has a little bit higher grade as a 3-4 NT for his skill set. Then in the pro's I wonder if players like TJ Watt, who is an OLB I think, if he would do as well as a 4-3 DE? Love to hear your insight on that type of thing. Obviously the hybrid LB/S type is becoming a big role for the hybrid 3-4, but maybe that is to keep up with the spread type offense taking place.

[Au165]

(03-05-2020, 02:14 PM)bengaloo Wrote: That is a good breakdown. I do notice though, that on places like Walter Football, they will rate players differently for the 4-3 and 3-4. For instance Benito Jones isnt listed very high as a 4-3 DT but has a little bit higher grade as a 3-4 NT for his skill set. Then in the pro's I wonder if players like TJ Watt, who is an OLB I think, if he would do as well as a 4-3 DE? Love to hear your insight on that type of thing. Obviously the hybrid LB/S type is becoming a big role for the hybrid 3-4, but maybe that is to keep up with the spread type offense taking place.

This is actually a really complex topic but I'll try and explain it the easiest way. The reason a lot of people refer to it that way is because old profiles of what the prototypical player at that position were like are hard for people to break from. Early on many 3-4 defenses were a 2 gap scheme. Because most 3-4 were ran as two gap schemes DT's were then pigeon holed as 3-4 DT's because they were probably a little bigger and more anchors than penetrators. Same for the inverse a lot of 4-3 schemes were traditionally single gap schemes where the personnel was a little smaller so they could shoot gaps and penetrate so if you were a smaller DT you often were type cast as 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE. 

Now the thing to understand is most of those beliefs really aren't hard and fast rules anymore. Wade Phillips for instance doesn't like his linemen to sit back and wait so he runs a 3-4 single gap scheme. There are coaches as well that like to run a 4-3 2 gab even scheme where the D linemen eat more blockers and let their linebackers read and react. 

It goes far more in depth than that but essentially players should be rated by their ability and  what they will be asked to do in a scheme more than a generic scheme like they currently are done but the reality is the average fan doesn't know or really care what that means but they can under stand 4-3 versus 3-4. 

[*Synric*]

(03-05-2020, 02:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: This is actually a really complex topic but I'll try and explain it the easiest way. The reason a lot of people refer to it that way is because old profiles of what the prototypical player at that position were like are hard for people to break from. Early on many 3-4 defenses were a 2 gap scheme. Because most 3-4 were ran as two gap schemes DT's were then pigeon holed as 3-4 DT's because they were probably a little bigger and more anchors than penetrators. Same for the inverse a lot of 4-3 schemes were traditionally single gap schemes where the personnel was a little smaller so they could shoot gaps and penetrate so if you were a smaller DT you often were type cast as 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE. 

Now the thing to understand is most of those beliefs really aren't hard and fast rules anymore. Wade Phillips for instance doesn't like his linemen to sit back and wait so he runs a 3-4 single gap scheme. There are coaches as well that like to run a 4-3 2 gab even scheme where the D linemen eat more blockers and let their linebackers read and react. 

It goes far more in depth than that but essentially players should be rated by their ability and  what they will be asked to do in a scheme more than a generic scheme like they currently are done but the reality is the average fan doesn't know or really care what that means but they can under stand 4-3 versus 3-4. 

I'm interested in how they will look at the 34 SAM Linebacker in the draft. Will they go traditional with a Joker like Zack Baun, Josh Uche, Anfernee Jennings or STAR like Akeem Davis-Gaither...possibly both. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-05-2020, 09:59 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: We ran Nickel over 60% of the time last year, which always has 4 down lineman anyways.

I don't see the need to be all up in arms over this; as AU mentioned it is still essentially a 4 down lineman front, with one of them standing instead of 3/4 point stance (Hubbard and Dunlap did it quite a bit).

We're still going to run 2 LBs out there, most plays.

Well if we use the traditional 3-4 at times we would have the big NT in the middle (Billings or Tupou) and Geno lined up on the
edge against a Tackle instead of having to fend off a Center and a Guard all the time. I think this is a big move myself, I still think
we would need another 3-tech type of DT on the other side. Dunlap and Hubbard could be on the other side but they also could 
be used as LB's in the traditional 3-4. Same with Lawson. It is a big difference if they do line up in a traditional 3-4 at times.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-05-2020, 12:13 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I agree they got better towards the end. But I'm not sure they were "that much better" ? I think you have to temper some of the elation and realize at least part of it was 4 of our last 5 games were against lower level NFL competition.

I disagree with the whole Lower level competition. We are not the only team that improved in the 2nd half of the season.

I mean if your going to say the first half of the season teams had better overall w/l records than the teams in the 2nd half of the season, then you are correct, but let's break all teams W/L records into 2 halves. 

Teams we played W-L Records by last 8 games: 37-27

Makes a big bit of difference when comparing half season to half season vs half to full season W/L records

Balt 8-0
Raiders 3-5
Steelers 4-4
Jets 6-2
Browns 4-4
Patriots 4-4
Dolphins 4-4
Browns 4-4

So Raiders are the only team we played that actually had a losing record in the final 8 games of the 19 Season.

First half of the season teams we played W/L record:
Seahawks 6-2
49'ers 8-0
Bills 6-2
Steelers 3-5
Cardinals 3-4-1
Ravens 6-2
Jaguars 4-4
Rams 5-3
41-22-1

So Steelers and Cardinals had losing records..

So it's only 4 games in the W column difference.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-05-2020, 04:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Well if we use the traditional 3-4 at times we would have the big NT in the middle (Billings or Tupou) and Geno lined up on the
edge against a Tackle instead of having to fend off a Center and a Guard all the time. I think this is a big move myself, I still think
we would need another 3-tech type of DT on the other side. Dunlap and Hubbard could be on the other side but they also could 
be used as LB's in the traditional 3-4. Same with Lawson. It is a big difference if they do line up in a traditional 3-4 at times.

Personally, I think a player like Geno would benefit by drawing more holding calls, if he were straight up over the Tackle.  He still has one of the better rip moves that I've seen, and those long armed Tackles won't be able to resist trying to lasso him by the neck.

[sandwedge]

(03-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I disagree with the whole Lower level competition. We are not the only team that improved in the 2nd half of the season.

I mean if your going to say the first half of the season teams had better overall w/l records than the teams in the 2nd half of the season, then you are correct, but let's break all teams W/L records into 2 halves. 

Teams we played W-L Records by last 8 games: 37-27

Makes a big bit of difference when comparing half season to half season vs half to full season W/L records

Balt 8-0
Raiders 3-5
Steelers 4-4
Jets 6-2
Browns 4-4
Patriots 4-4
Dolphins 4-4
Browns 4-4

So Raiders are the only team we played that actually had a losing record in the final 8 games of the 19 Season.

First half of the season teams we played W/L record:
Seahawks 6-2
49'ers 8-0
Bills 6-2
Steelers 3-5
Cardinals 3-4-1
Ravens 6-2
Jaguars 4-4
Rams 5-3
41-22-1

So Steelers and Cardinals had losing records..

So it's only 4 games in the W column difference.

I just hate that statement to begin with, "Look who you beat".... Well would fans feel better if we lost to them? Even a couple of years back, you'd hear it, but if your a good team then you should beat lesser teams..