QB Index by Gregg Rosenthal

[Rhinocero23]

(10-11-2015, 09:21 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: You got that right!  A quick release is a very underrated statistic.  Not only from a standpoint of limiting hits on the QB but it also does wonders for your o-line.

updated

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000557256/article/qb-index-andy-dalton-rises-as-young-trio-emerges

Look who is #4....interesting to see if all the people that said this guy was an idiot all of a sudden say he is a QB rating genius!

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 10:38 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: updated

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000557256/article/qb-index-andy-dalton-rises-as-young-trio-emerges

Look who is #4....interesting to see if all the people that said this guy was an idiot all of a sudden say he is a QB rating genius!

Less "genius" and more a Johnny come lately.  

[jj22]

Not genius. No credibility. No qb in football history has gone from bottom 10 to elite. Someone got their critique on Dalton wrong.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 11:41 AM)jj22 Wrote: Not genius. No credibility. No qb in football history has gone from bottom 10 to elite. Someone got their critique on Dalton wrong.

Most agreed that Andy was an average NFL QB from 2011 - 2014.

Most agree that Andy is playing at a very high level in 2015.

Andy playing at a high level in 2015 doesn't make anybody "wrong" about Andy being average from 2011 - 2014.

Derp, herp a derp a lerp.

The only people that were "wrong" were those that claimed that Andy would NEVER improve. In reality, how many made those claims? Not very many whatsoever.

[jj22]

What qb in football history went from bottom 10 to top 5 in 5 years.... lets start with that? I'll wait. FYI, most bottom 10 qb's are out of the league or backups after 5 years. But I'll wait. And while your at it, what below average/average qb has never had a losing season? Given that only 4 teams have made the playoffs in consecutive years since 2011, and none of them have qb's deemed as below average/average. I think we both know the answer. Well I know the answer, others are still trying to make excuses for their poor qb assessments.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 12:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: What qb in football history went from bottom 10 to top 5 in 5 years.... lets start with that? I'll wait. FYI, most bottom 10 qb's are out of the league or backups after 5 years. But I'll wait. And while your at it, what below average/average qb has never had a losing season? Given that only 4 teams have made the playoffs in consecutive years since 2011, and none of them have qb's deemed as below average/average. I think we both know the answer. Well I know the answer, others are still trying to make excuses for their poor qb assessments.

1. Players don't win games, lose games, make the playoffs, or miss the playoffs. Those are all team things. Andy didn't lose the playoff games, but he played a big role in at least 2 of the losses. Andy didn't win 40+ games in the regular season, but he played a big role in winning a lot of them. Agree or disagree with that assessment??

2. I don't believe Andy is, or ever was below average, so all of your below average talk doesn't apply to my thoughts and assessment.

While "your" at it, maybe you shouldn't put words in others mouths and shit talk them like "your" superior when that person wasn't even making those arguments. I won't hold my breath, because you'll never stop doing that.

[jj22]

Well I guess the answer is no other qb's. But I knew that. And regardless no TEAM has made the playoffs in back to back to back years with a below average/average qb at the helm.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 12:26 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I guess the answer is no other qb's. But I knew that.

Andy doesn't fit into the category either since he wasn't bottom 10.

But I knew that you wouldn't comprehend the words I'm saying.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-16-2015, 11:49 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Most agreed that Andy was an average NFL QB from 2011 - 2014.

Most agree that Andy is playing at a very high level in 2015.

Andy playing at a high level in 2015 doesn't make anybody "wrong" about Andy being average from 2011 - 2014.

Derp, herp a derp a lerp.

The only people that were "wrong" were those that claimed that Andy would NEVER improve. In reality, how many made those claims? Not very many whatsoever.

There are people around that area insisting that since Andy has played at an elite level so far in 2015, that it means that this is how things were all along.  People are choosing to ignore 2011-2014, plug their ears with their fingers, and shout "neh neh" whenever Andy's name is mentioned.

I agree with folks that it's not very often that a QB goes from a bottom 10 guy to a top 5 guy....maybe it's even NEVER happened.  But if Andy finishes this year out the same way that he's started it, he will fall into that category.

It's silly that guys are acting like they saw this one coming.  Especially considering that if he finishes out the year this way, it may go down as the biggest season to season improvement of any player at any position in the last decade.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 12:27 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I agree with folks that it's not very often that a QB goes from a bottom 10 guy to a top 5 guy....maybe it's even NEVER happened.  But if Andy finishes this year out the same way that he's started it, he will fall into that category.

See, I disagree with that. I don't think Andy Dalton was ever a bottom 10 QB, so I don't think he would qualify for that.

But hey, F me because I'm an "Andy hater".....I guess?

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:27 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: There are people around that area insisting that since Andy has played at an elite level so far in 2015, that it means that this is how things were all along.  People are choosing to ignore 2011-2014, plug their ears with their fingers, and shout "neh neh" whenever Andy's name is mentioned.

I agree with folks that it's not very often that a QB goes from a bottom 10 guy to a top 5 guy....maybe it's even NEVER happened.  But if Andy finishes this year out the same way that he's started it, he will fall into that category.

It's silly that guys are acting like they saw this one coming.  Especially considering that if he finishes out the year this way, it may go down as the biggest season to season improvement of any player at any position in the last decade.

Dalton was never a "bottom 10" guy.  The guy showed what he was capable of in 2013 when we had a top 10 ranked offense with a mediocre run game.  He was also third in the league in TDs that year.  He was on the verge and had a regression due to injuries and a new OC.  I might not have expected Dalton to be playing as well as he has, but I'm not going to pretend like I didn't see him as one of the best QBs in this league going into this year.  A stark contrast with many on this board who said his best was past him already.

We all know who they are.  

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-16-2015, 12:29 PM)djs7685 Wrote: See, I disagree with that. I don't think Andy Dalton was ever a bottom 10 QB, so I don't think he would qualify for that.

But hey, F me because I'm an "Andy hater".....I guess?

I don't really think he was a bottom 10 guy.  He was an average guy with a bottom 10 season, if that clarifies things a bit.

Still, it's pretty rare that a player makes the move from "average" to "elite".  That's why I'm pretty hesitant to give him that label.  He may be performing that way at the moment, but his performance may end up balancing out.  Just as when he performed like a bottom-of-the-barrel guy last year, not many people expect him to not improve on that this season.  It's most likely that he is still hovering around average to above average, and is having a streak of incredible play.....if not, and this is the real deal Andy, he's made one of the more drastic improvements in recent memory.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-16-2015, 12:34 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Dalton was never a "bottom 10" guy.  The guy showed what he was capable of in 2013 when we had a top 10 ranked offense with a mediocre run game.  He was also third in the league in TDs that year.  He was on the verge and had a regression due to injuries and a new OC.  I might not have expected Dalton to be playing as well as he has, but I'm not going to pretend like I didn't see him as one of the best QBs in this league going into this year.  A stark contrast with many on this board who said his best was pass him already.

We all know who they are.  

You can't have your cake and eat it too...(I don't really understand that saying)

If you're going to say that he "was never a bottom 10 guy", then don't say that he's a "top 5 guy" now.  He's certainly performing like one, and that's exactly what I'd call it, but if we can't call last year for what it was, then why would we do so for these last 5 games.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 12:34 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Dalton was never a "bottom 10" guy.  The guy showed what he was capable of in 2013 when we had a top 10 ranked offense with a mediocre run game.  He was also third in the league in TDs that year.  He was on the verge and had a regression due to injuries and a new OC.  I might not have expected Dalton to be playing as well as he has, but I'm not going to pretend like I didn't see him as one of the best QBs in this league going into this year.  A stark contrast with many on this board who said his best was past him already.

We all know who they are.  

Whoa, you were actually making some good points and acting civilized regarding Andy until the bold statement.

Who are the "many" that said his best play was past him already? If you know who they are, then who are they? Seriously, I'm not being a dick, but I've seen maybe 1% of the board make that kind of claim. How on earth is that "many"????

[XenoMorph]

(10-16-2015, 12:40 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Whoa, you were actually making some good points and acting civilized regarding Andy until the bold statement.

Who are the "many" that said his best play was past him already? If you know who they are, then who are they? Seriously, I'm not being a dick, but I've seen maybe 1% of the board make that kind of claim. How on earth is that "many"????

There probly werent as many as we remember they just constantly posted it over and over and over.

[fredtoast]

(10-16-2015, 11:49 AM)djs7685 Wrote: The only people that were "wrong" were those that claimed that Andy would NEVER improve. In reality, how many made those claims? Not very many whatsoever.

You've got to be kidding.

I remember a lot of people saying Dalton needed to be replaced because there was no chance he would ever be good.

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 12:45 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: There probly werent as many as we remember they just constantly posted it over and over and over.

(10-16-2015, 12:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You've got to be kidding.

I remember a lot of people saying Dalton needed to be replaced because there was no chance he would ever be good.

I believe Xeno is right on here.

There were a handful of throwaway accounts with like 30 posts that would call Andy trash and whatnot, but of the actual, legitimate board members, not many said such things. There were definitely SOME, I won't disagree with that. I just think it was amplified because of the extreme arguments that would occur and those same guys would mention it over and over and over.

I honestly can't say there were "a lot" or "many" people saying he needed replaced asap or anything, but I'll also say there weren't "many" non-trolls calling him elite or great either.

[fredtoast]

(10-16-2015, 12:40 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Whoa, you were actually making some good points and acting civilized regarding Andy until the bold statement.

Who are the "many" that said his best play was past him already? If you know who they are, then who are they? Seriously, I'm not being a dick, but I've seen maybe 1% of the board make that kind of claim. How on earth is that "many"????

I know this is pointless because you will just ask for specific posts with specific quotes and then claim that they never actually said the word "never" when speaking of Dalton, but it is pretty clear that many here had given up on him.  Even if they covered their asses with a "I guess anything is possible" tag line at the end of their rants, these guys had no real hope for Dalton.  .  .  CornerBlitz, Utts, Leonard40, JohnnyCupcakes, BengalChris, CINwillWIN, Lolli, Baby Hawk, Wes Mantooth, Eoxyod

And I am sure there are plenty more that I don't remember.  I am sure I could find a dozen more pretty quickly if I started looking through old threads.  

[djs7685]

(10-16-2015, 01:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know this is pointless because you will just ask for specific posts with specific quotes and then claim that they never actually said the word "never" when speaking of Dalton, but it is pretty clear that many here had given up on him.  Even if they covered their asses with a "I guess anything is possible" tag line at the end of their rants, these guys had no real hope for Dalton.  .  .  CornerBlitz, Utts, Leonard40, JohnnyCupcakes, BengalChris, CINwillWIN, Lloli, Baby Hawk, Wes Mantooth.

And I am sure there are plenty more that I don't remember.  I am sure I could find a dozen more pretty quickly if I started looking through old threads.  

There were a few that didn't think there was any hope for the guy, but at least a few of those on that list were more in tune with my general opinion of Andy from 2011 - 2014.

Average-ish QB, not extremely likely that he would have a Drew Brees-esque transformation, and willing to look elsewhere if a great QB became available.

I'll happily admit that Andy is pleasantly surprising this year, but I still don't think it was a slam dunk that he was going to be playing THIS well in 2015. People claiming that "they knew it" are the same people that made the claim every other season.

A lot of us asked how long do you give a guy like Andy before looking elsewhere in such a fast paced league? That's where a lot of people's opinions seemed to differ. I wasn't ready to cut Andy and start AJ McCarron, but I don't think "many" others were in that exact boat either.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 01:23 PM)djs7685 Wrote: There were a few that didn't think there was any hope for the guy, but at least a few of those on that list were more in tune with my general opinion of Andy from 2011 - 2014.

Average-ish QB, not extremely likely that he would have a Drew Brees-esque transformation, and willing to look elsewhere if a great QB became available.

I'll happily admit that Andy is pleasantly surprising this year, but I still don't think it was a slam dunk that he was going to be playing THIS well in 2015. People claiming that "they knew it" are the same people that made the claim every other season.

A lot of us asked how long do you give a guy like Andy before looking elsewhere in such a fast paced league? That's where a lot of people's opinions seemed to differ. I wasn't ready to cut Andy and start AJ McCarron, but I don't think "many" others were in that exact boat either.

If Dalton was as "average" as people said he was, why did it only take him playing great in 5 games to move him into the top 10 of active QBs in terms of QB rating for his career?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_active.htm

Why would there even be a discussion about replacing a guy like that?