Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2020, 02:35 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: And in regards to PFF grades, sorry but everyone in the football industry uses them (including NFL teams) more than any other source for their player grading. 

No they do not.  Just look at Josh Bynes.  PFF loved him, but we were able to sign him for about league minimum.  Jason Peters was one of the top 5 OTs in the league last year according to PFF and he can't even get a job.

I can probably find 20 other examples of where PFF grades are completely out of line with the way NFL teams value players in free agency.

You can not provide me with ONE example of an NFL team claiming they use PFF grading systems to judge players.  NFL teams probably use the raw data and stats that PFF collects, but not their grading system. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-13-2020, 03:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they do not.  Just look at Josh Bynes.  PFF loved him, but we were able to sign him for about league minimum.  Jason Peters was one of the top 5 OTs in the league last year according to PFF and he can't even get a job.

I can probably find 20 other examples of where PFF grades are completely out of line with the way NFL teams value players in free agency.

You can not provide me with ONE example of an NFL team claiming they use PFF grading systems to judge players.  NFL teams probably use the raw data and stats that PFF collects, but not their grading system. 

To be fair Peters is really old which is why he is still out there.

In the end I think the eye ball test is the best way to grade players cause sometimes PFF can be perplexing to say the least on 
their grades. They used to be much better as Truck alludes to back before NBC and Collinsworth jumped in. This still doesn't 
mean either Warford or Peters wouldn't be major upgrades for us.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-13-2020, 03:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: To be fair Peters is really old which is why he is still out there.

In the end I think the eye ball test is the best way to grade players cause sometimes PFF can be perplexing to say the least on 
their grades. They used to be much better as Truck alludes to back before NBC and Collinsworth jumped in. This still doesn't 
mean either Warford or Peters wouldn't be major upgrades for us.

I think the biggest debunker of his notion that it is the #1 tool, is what I posted in the last post: forget free agency, keeping your own, etc., when you are drafting a college player, you have the LEAST first-hand knowledge of how he will do in the league, in comparison to any current NFLer and as a result, you would be MORE prone to use an outside source as scouting.

Josh Jones had their highest-graded OT season ever, for a college OT.

He's picked 72nd overall. Full stop.

FULL STOP.

There's no need to even continue the notion that it is the #1/main tool used by teams, after the fact above.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-13-2020, 03:41 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I think the biggest debunker of his notion that it is the #1 tool, is what I posted in the last post: forget free agency, keeping your own, etc., when you are drafting a college player, you have the LEAST first-hand knowledge of how he will do in the league, in comparison to any current NFLer and as a result, you would be MORE prone to use an outside source as scouting.

Josh Jones had their highest-graded OT season ever, for a college OT.

He's picked 72nd overall. Full stop.

FULL STOP.

There's no need to even continue the notion that it is the #1/main tool used by teams, after the fact above.

Yeah, that is what makes me put hardly any stock in PFF, stuff like this.

I did like Josh Jones and would of been more than fine Drafting him but something has to be up for him to fall that far and 
teams sure didn't take PFF into account at all when grading Josh Jones for him to fall that far.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-13-2020, 03:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they do not.  Just look at Josh Bynes.  PFF loved him, but we were able to sign him for about league minimum.  Jason Peters was one of the top 5 OTs in the league last year according to PFF and he can't even get a job.

I can probably find 20 other examples of where PFF grades are completely out of line with the way NFL teams value players in free agency.

You can not provide me with ONE example of an NFL team claiming they use PFF grading systems to judge players.  NFL teams probably use the raw data and stats that PFF collects, but not their grading system. 

What are you talking about Fred, Nate and Truck?

I just saw an interview the other day where Collinsworth said that he and Mike Brown work hand in hand with his company.


Also, have you looked online lately at PFF, the company?
PFF Customizes data for all 32 Teams currently. Like I said, EVERY NFL Team uses PFF as a source for data. I saw another interview during the pre draft process where a GM said they use PFF to help as well.

BUT, I never said they made every decision in the building b/c of it.
You guys just run with every sentence and turn them into other tangents around here. You're worse than women in twisting peoples words around! Geesh
I never said it was the end all or #1 thing a team looks at for picking a damn player in the draft or FA either. But, it sure does help.
As we know, PFF does have customized data for where their players are graded each and every play.
As everyone knows as well, a play can be very subjective; so, it's not iron clad, especially when it comes to tackles and sacks for instance.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-13-2020, 04:47 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: What are you talking about Fred, Nate and Truck?

I just saw an interview the other day where Collinsworth said that he and Mike Brown work hand in hand with his company.


Also, have you looked online lately at PFF, the company?
PFF Customizes data for all 32 Teams currently. Like I said, EVERY NFL Team uses PFF as a source for data. I saw another interview during the pre draft process where a GM said they use PFF to help as well.

BUT, I never said they made every decision in the building b/c of it.
You guys just run with every sentence and turn them into other tangents around here. You're worse than women in twisting peoples words around! Geesh
I never said it was the end all or #1 thing a team looks at for picking a damn player in the draft or FA either. But, it sure does help.
As we know, PFF does have customized data for where their players are graded each and every play.
As everyone knows as well, a play can be very subjective; so, it's not iron clad, especially when it comes to tackles and sacks for instance.

Fred knows how to twist people's words, that is for sure.

I am just saying you cannot put much stock into PFF at times. But they are more right than wrong for the most part.

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2020, 04:47 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote:  
As we know, PFF does have customized data for where their players are graded each and every play.

NFL teams don't use their grades.  It is clear in the way the value free agents.

I have always known they use the raw data, but it is clear they don't use the grades.

Do you actually have a quote where someone claims the NFL teams use their grades (not data) at all?

[JerseyDD09]

(05-13-2020, 08:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: NFL teams don't use their grades.  It is clear in the way the value free agents.

I have always known they use the raw data, but it is clear they don't use the grades.

Do you actually have a quote where someone claims the NFL teams use their grades (not data) at all?

NFL teams use the data and they can make their own "grades" for players. Again, PFF says they "Customize" their data for all 32 teams.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the grade. PFF has their Grades; but I'm pretty sure the teams are using the PFF customized data and using it to suit their own needs and make their own judgements on grades right?
But, as you should know, you have to start from somewhere in regards to "grading" in general.
Let's use some common sense here Fred.
Read the PFF articles and what's on Wikipedia ok? It clearly says that they work with all 32 teams in the NFL.
And, my debate with you is based on you saying that you don't put much stock in PFF stats.
What's funny is that you continually use stats to fit your debating needs on this site all of the time.
And, PFF seems to be the #1 place that NFL teams and most analysts use for just about every aspect of NFL football.
You can say you get your stats from other places; but, PFF is the most common site used at this time based on NFL team usage.
If you can tell me another NFL data service that all 32 NFL teams use, then that's great.
Maybe everyone should start incorporating those services for debate sessions as well?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-14-2020, 02:47 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: NFL teams use the data and they can make their own "grades" for players. Again, PFF says they "Customize" their data for all 32 teams.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on the grade. PFF has their Grades; but I'm pretty sure the teams are using the PFF customized data and using it to suit their own needs and make their own judgements on grades right?
But, as you should know, you have to start from somewhere in regards to "grading" in general.
Let's use some common sense here Fred.
Read the PFF articles and what's on Wikipedia ok? It clearly says that they work with all 32 teams in the NFL.
And, my debate with you is based on you saying that you don't put much stock in PFF stats.
What's funny is that you continually use stats to fit your debating needs on this site all of the time.
And, PFF seems to be the #1 place that NFL teams and most analysts use for just about every aspect of NFL football.
You can say you get your stats from other places; but, PFF is the most common site used at this time based on NFL team usage.
If you can tell me another NFL data service that all 32 NFL teams use, then that's great.
Maybe everyone should start incorporating those services for debate sessions as well?

So basically, they do what I wrote that they do, in previous posts?

Thank you. Don't lump me in with anyone when I'm not saying what is actually posted

[sandwedge]

So before the season starts, we've already failed JB? We are very young on offense. I like the fact this group can grow up together.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-14-2020, 03:03 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: So basically, they do what I wrote that they do, in previous posts?

Thank you. Don't lump me in with anyone when I'm not saying what is actually posted

No, I disagree. Your argument about Josh Jones has no bearing on my debate with Fred, I guess Nate and I guess you now. Lol

Josh Jones was drafted where he was at based on several things, not just PFF or any other outside source grades.

Again, you guys are twisting everything said into an "End all" for NFL Teams.

That's all that was said was Fred doesn't put any stock in PFF, same with Nate. But, I'm saying that all NFL teams do put stock in their data and grading system, to at least a degree.

And my argument is that all 32 NFL teams do use it in a customizable way. Just read articles about PFF on line. I don't need interviews by NFL people to prove my point with Fred or anyone. The fact is that all NFL teams use PFF to help their teams. So, why wouldn't fans like us use the same type of data?
They then do with that data whatever they want to. I'm sure they do the same things in house as PFF as well. But, if teams are smart, they compare gradable data all day long for players and add it into the equation for decision making.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2020, 02:47 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: I think you're placing too much emphasis on the grade. 

Right.  

I 100% agree with the rest of what you said in that diatribe.

We both agree PFF collects a lot of information.  In fact I often use what I call their "objective" stats like "completion percentage allowed" for DBs.  I never complain about the source when I see other people use these stats.

But there are two problems with the grades.  First, they are too subjective.  Two players can both do their job on a play but one will get 100% more "points".  Second the formula they used allowed a player to be ranked behind another who played half as many snaps and messed up more often.  If they use a different formula now I can't find it anywhere.

But the big thing to me about the PFF grades is that NFL teams often disregard PFF grades when shopping in free agency or drafting college players.  I know age and health also effects the price of free agents, but even taking those things into account the value is often much different than the PFF grade.

My favorite example of the credibility of the PFF stats I the fact they said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015.

Now I am done with this.  I am dropping the subject of PFF.  I will even let you have the last word.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-14-2020, 03:23 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: No, I disagree. Your argument about Josh Jones has no bearing on my debate with Fred, I guess Nate and I guess you now. Lol

Josh Jones was drafted where he was at based on several things, not just PFF or any other outside source grades.

Again, you guys are twisting everything said into an "End all" for NFL Teams.

That's all that was said was Fred doesn't put any stock in PFF, same with Nate. But, I'm saying that all NFL teams do put stock in their data and grading system, to at least a degree.

And my argument is that all 32 NFL teams do use it in a customizable way. Just read articles about PFF on line. I don't need interviews by NFL people to prove my point with Fred or anyone. The fact is that all NFL teams use PFF to help their teams. So, why wouldn't fans like us use the same type of data?
They then do with that data whatever they want to. I'm sure they do the same things in house as PFF as well. But, if teams are smart, they compare gradable data all day long for players and add it into the equation for decision making.

Fred's got it right as well; I said that they definitely use them for numbers, but they absolutely don't for grading.

IE: what I wrote, you agreed with. Simple.

[JerseyDD09]

(05-14-2020, 03:30 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Fred's got it right as well; I said that they definitely use them for numbers, but they absolutely don't for grading.

IE: what I wrote, you agreed with. Simple.

Ok, Onto the Chargers! LMAO

[JerseyDD09]

(05-14-2020, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right.  

I 100% agree with the rest of what you said in that diatribe.

We both agree PFF collects a lot of information.  In fact I often use what I call their "objective" stats like "completion percentage allowed" for DBs.  I never complain about the source when I see other people use these stats.

But there are two problems with the grades.  First, they are too subjective.  Two players can both do their job on a play but one will get 100% more "points".  Second the formula they used allowed a player to be ranked behind another who played half as many snaps and messed up more often.  If they use a different formula now I can't find it anywhere.

But the big thing to me about the PFF grades is that NFL teams often disregard PFF grades when shopping in free agency or drafting college players.  I know age and health also effects the price of free agents, but even taking those things into account the value is often much different than the PFF grade.

My favorite example of the credibility of the PFF stats I the fact they said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015.

Now I am done with this.  I am dropping the subject of PFF.  I will even let you have the last word.

None needed. Onto the next debate! Lol

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-13-2020, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'd love to see those numbers also.  Pretty soon I will have similar numbers from Footballoutsiders yearly almanac, but right now no one here seems to have access to PFF's full stats.

Some one has commented that Hart allowed as many pressures in 2019 as 2018, but considering he played almost 100 more passing snaps that would actually indicate a big improvement.

It is hard to find many good hard stats on O-linemen.  As much as I talk about "objective stats" the fact is "sacks allowed" is kind of subjective.  Different sources will have different numbers for the same player.

From what I saw watching the games, Hart made leaps and bounds last year compared to the year before. If he can make another jump this year he will actually be a decent RT. Not a popular opinion around here however...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2020, 04:00 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: From what I saw watching the games, Hart made leaps and bounds last year compared to the year before. If he can make another jump this year he will actually be a decent RT. Not a popular opinion around here however...

It should be a popular opinion. If Hart becomes a decent RT the team is so much better off.