Lawson vs. Dunlap

[impactplaya]

Id like to see Dunlap actually come Sunday actually finish off a QB resulting in a sack or at least funnel him
Back to the inside pass rush. I.hope he sacks Minshew 3 times but I.highly doubt it.

[Tony]

(09-30-2020, 10:50 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Carlos Dunlap is by far the most overrated player on the team, and has been for years. (Followed closely by Joe Mixon.)

***Note: Please know that overrated does not mean bad. It means overrated.

I'm all for giving Carl Lawson as much work as we can, as he may actually have a future here.  And we really need to start considering how we want to build this team out.  His contract is up after the season, so the more we can see of him the better.

Carlos Dunlap on the other hand is an obvious cap casualty.  There is no way this team can justify paying him 13 mil next season.  The only other hope would be that he blows up mid season, where he rattles off his typical 2 or 3 game stretch of actually playing to hsi contract worth, and you can ship him off to some injury/covid ridden team, in desperate need, for a late round pick.

I agree.. Dunlap is 100% overrated..

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-01-2020, 06:04 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Id like to see Dunlap actually come Sunday actually finish off a QB  resulting in a sack or at least funnel him
Back to the inside pass rush. I.hope he sacks Minshew 3 times but I.highly doubt it.

Well, if Burrow continues on his trajectory, without the Eagles pass rush, I think the Bengals could have a lead and force Jax to throw it early and often.  That could help with sacks. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-30-2020, 09:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: To focus on what can be done NOW to improve the team on the field, one glaring opportunity to me is by giving more snaps to Carl Lawson and less to Carlos Dunlap.  Lawson seems to be on a mission to prove he is a three-down player.  He also looks like he spend the offseason getting even bigger and stronger while Dunlap got a spare tire (that's impressive given that he is 6'7").

I don't have the PFF access, other than what is free, but Lawson has been making more plays than anyone on the defensive line.  He currently has 3 sacks, and a forced fumble.  He is averaging around 56% of the snaps on defense.  His PFF rating in 2020 is 74.7.

Carlos Dunlap has zero sacks or forced fumbles, and played a whopping 82% of the snaps against Philly.  His PFF rating in 2020 is 49.6.

Despite my dig at Dunlap's body, I know he has been a perennial slow starter (more conditioning questions?) and I think it would actually help Dunlap if he lost some snaps to Lawson.  Not only is Lawson tearing it up, but Dunlap might be more effective with more rest.  And teams throw with the most efficiency (typically) on first down, and many teams throw on first down so not having your best pass rusher out there on first down is just stupid (at least our coaches are consistent).  Lawson has also shown he is serious about being a three down player and has done very well against the run.  

Thoughts?

Lawson had a great game against the Eagles agree. He IS showing that he can be a 3 down End now that he is stopping the 
run too. Dunlap also had a very good game against the Eagles as did Hubbard. In the end, yeah, I agree, less snaps for Dunlap
would be a good move, more for Lawson, Hubbard and Kareem.

Haven't seen Lawson at the LE side much though...

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2020, 12:14 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But when you look at it on a year-to-year basis, Dunlap is not Top 10 every year except maybe in a couple categories.

There are no DEs that are top ten year-to-year.

Maybe 2 or 3 for a few years.  But no one is arguing that Dunlap is top 2 or 3 among DES.

[fredtoast]

(09-30-2020, 02:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'd be curious to see his ranks for each season, to see where he ranks.  Would you care to pull them individually, so I can see how it compares to his peers season by season?

There are a lot of DEs that have a good year or two, but very few that play as consistently as Dunlap.  You can't just sign new DEs every yera to one year contracts.

Here are the times Dunlap has finished in the top 12 in the league amongs DEs

QB HITS
11....11th (12 games)
13.... 4th
14.... 2nd (14 games)
15.... 5th
16.... 6th
17....10th
18.... 9th
19....12th 14 games)

SOLO TCKLS
13....12th
14....10th  (14 games)
15....11th
17....12th
19.... 6th (14 games)

TOTAL TCKLS
13....12th
14.... 5th (12 games)
15....11th
19.... 7th (14 games)

SACKS
10....12th (12 games)
14....12th (14 games)
15.... 4th
16....10th
19....11th (14 games)

TCKL FOR LOSS
14.... 3rd (14 games)
15.... 5th
17....12th
19.... 9th (14 games)

FORCED FUMBLES
12.... 4th
13.... 3rd

[*ochocincos*]

(10-02-2020, 02:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are no DEs that are top ten year-to-year.

Maybe 2 or 3 for a few years.  But no one is arguing that Dunlap is top 2 or 3 among DES.

I apologize for the misinterpretation from my reply.
Dunlap has not been a top 10 edge rusher for at least the past 3 years.
I don't necessarily care what someone has accumulated for their whole career if they are not productive in recent years.

When was the last time Dunlap was Top 10 in sacks?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-02-2020, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are a lot of DEs that have a good year or two, but very few that play as consistently as Dunlap.  You can't just sign new DEs every yera to one year contracts.

Here are the times Dunlap has finished in the top 12 in the league amongs DEs

QB HITS
11....11th (12 games)
13.... 4th
14.... 2nd (14 games)
15.... 5th
16.... 6th
17....10th
18.... 9th
19....12th 14 games)

SOLO TCKLS
13....12th
14....10th  (14 games)
15....11th
17....12th
19.... 6th (14 games)

TOTAL TCKLS
13....12th
14.... 5th (12 games)
15....11th
19.... 7th (14 games)

SACKS
10....12th (12 games)
14....12th (14 games)
15.... 4th
16....10th
19....11th (14 games)

TCKL FOR LOSS
14.... 3rd (14 games)
15.... 5th
17....12th
19.... 9th (14 games)

FORCED FUMBLES
12.... 4th
13.... 3rd

Do these numbers include 3-4 OLBs? I assume not, right?

[*Synric*]

(10-02-2020, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do these numbers include 3-4 OLBs? I assume not, right?

It doesn't Dunlap was tied for 22nd in sacks in 2019.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 03:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Dunlap has not been a top 10 DE for at least the past 3 years.

Last year in just 14 games Dunlap finished 2nd in passes defended,  6th in solo tackles, 7th in tackles, 9th in tackles for loss, and 9th in QB hits.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do these numbers include 3-4 OLBs? I assume not, right?

Correct, Dunlap is not a 3-4 OLB.

[*Synric*]

(10-02-2020, 03:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Correct, Dunlap is not a 3-4 OLB.

He has played 34 OLB alot over the last two seasons. In truth he is an edge defender just like alot of 34 OLB. So they are grouped together.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-02-2020, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote:

Last year in just 14 games Dunlap finished 2nd in passes defended,  6th in solo tackles, 7th in tackles, 9th in tackles for loss, and 9th in QB hits.

I edited my statement to say edge rusher, as I consider 3-4 OLBs and 4-3 DEs to be in a very similar role as edge.
And one thing missing from your list is sacks.
Dunlap does not get enough sacks for my liking.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 03:33 PM)Synric Wrote: He has played 34 OLB alot over the last two seasons. In truth he is an edge defender just like alot of 34 OLB. So they are grouped together.

(10-02-2020, 03:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I edited my statement to say edge rusher, as I consider 3-4 OLBs and 4-3 DEs to be in a very similar role as edge.

But many of the 3-4 OLBs who had more sacks than Dunlap could not play DE in our system.  You can't just say they are all the same.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-02-2020, 03:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Correct, Dunlap is not a 3-4 OLB.

Note: 14 teams in 2019 did run a 3-4.  Thus eliminating almost 50% of edge rushers from your statistics.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-02-2020, 03:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But many of the 3-4 OLBs who had more sacks than Dunlap could not play DE in our system.  You can't just say they are all the same.

I didn't necessarily say they were all the same, but I think it's unfair to not include them because we want to compare across the whole league.
If, for example, we see that most of the sack production is from 3-4 OLBs vs 4-3 DEs, maybe it helps indicate that the Bengals need to convert more to full-time 3-4 and get new 3-4 OLBs.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-02-2020, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote:

Last year in just 14 games Dunlap finished 2nd in passes defended,  6th in solo tackles, 7th in tackles, 9th in tackles for loss, and 9th in QB hits.

And he had his highest graded year ever at 89.7

[J24]

Really Dunlap hate on this board? He just had 9 Tackles (all solo), 1 TFL, 1 QB Hit, and 1 PD last week. He'll be fine relax.

[impactplaya]

Dunlap really needs to simply dominate the man across
From him on Sunday. And 1 qb hit doesnt quite get it done
He needs to get.into the head of the QB.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 03:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Note: 14 teams in 2019 did run a 3-4.  Thus eliminating almost 50% of edge rushers from your statistics.

But Dunlap is more than just an edge rusher.  A lot of 3-4 OLBs are just too small to plug in at DE for us.