PFF OL grades - Week 10

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-18-2020, 12:21 PM)thillan Wrote: Hart has graded the highest this year. People are relying on his track record, but he seems to be pretty consistent this year.

Jonah is our highest graded on the OL (74.8). Hart is 70.4.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-18-2020, 01:27 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Hart is still not good. To everybody pointing to his better PFF grades the two weeks before he got hurt. That was the coaching staff changing the scheme and giving him TE or RB help on most pass plays. Makes Hart look better because he can cheat to the inside if he has TE help, he can cheat to the outside if he has RB help to the inside. While that helps him look like a better player, it hampers the offenses because they have to design around his weak play.

This. It’s still a position we need to look at upgrading.

[thillan]

(11-18-2020, 01:33 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Jonah is our highest graded on the OL (74.8). Hart is 70.4.

Gotcha, thanks for correcting. Still having a good year it would seem, lots of hype for Adeniji. I get its fun to look at youth, but can't deny Hart has done well.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-18-2020, 12:21 PM)thillan Wrote: Hart has graded the highest this year. People are relying on his track record, but he seems to be pretty consistent this year.

I believe not the highest William's has but he was out grading William's over last games he played. If people research what he is being paid with others in that same range he is not over paid and should start when he returns.  I'm all in drafting a tackle but keep Hart for the price .

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-16-2020, 05:31 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: I'm not sure how they don't know at this point what they have in Jordan.  He's a guy who started as a freshman at Ohio State yet never got much better.  Now he's a guy who started as a rookie and we aren't seeing any improvement in the NFL.  

His previous game prior to the Steelers game was his career best according to PFF.

I'm fine with them concluding he's not the answer: I just want them to do this this season than next year when we should have play-off ambitions. My fear is that they'll stick with what they currently have and let him battle for a spot as by not playing or watching someone else struggle he'll have somehow improved.

(11-16-2020, 06:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The thing that folks miss is the C helps the QB with the line calls.

And the snapping the ball thing. Price seemed to have at least one snap a game go awry. I feel a lot more confident that Hopkins is going to get the ball safely to Burrow.

(11-17-2020, 02:36 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: All of you capping on Jordan are forgetting a couple big factors.. dude is only 22 (23 end of Jan). That means he was 21 last year. He is still growing into his body!

Now unless you are a first round OL, odds are it will take a couple years to get it all down. Technique, foot work, diet hands knee bend. He needs to really dedicate himself to mastering that footwork.

What he needs most is a good Mentor and someone to stay after him on that footwork. Show him how its done. This could be where Spain helps the most if he is inclined like that. We need a vet or two on that line.

They don't have a good mentor when their best lineman is a veteran of 7 games. That's one of the reasons why they need to invest in the line. You don't necessarily need 5 All-Pros but they arguably have one lineman above average and that may be a generous interpretation.

My fear is though that they go for quantity not quality this off-season and they'll figure that Adeniji and Johnson will compete with Hart at Tackle and that between Spain, XSF, Hopkins/Price/Jordan/Redmond/Finney they can find two guards rather than attack the position. Add a tier 1 FA and round 1 or 2 draft pick and then we're talking.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-18-2020, 03:39 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: His previous game prior to the Steelers game was his career best according to PFF.

I'm fine with them concluding he's not the answer: I just want them to do this this season than next year when we should have play-off ambitions. My fear is that they'll stick with what they currently have and let him battle for a spot as by not playing or watching someone else struggle he'll have somehow improved.


And the snapping the ball thing. Price seemed to have at least one snap a game go awry. I feel a lot more confident that Hopkins is going to get the ball safely to Burrow.


They don't have a good mentor when their best lineman is a veteran of 7 games. That's one of the reasons why they need to invest in the line. You don't necessarily need 5 All-Pros but they arguably have one lineman above average and that may be a generous interpretation.

My fear is though that they go for quantity not quality this off-season and they'll figure that Adeniji and Johnson will compete with Hart at Tackle and that between Spain, XSF, Hopkins/Price/Jordan/Redmond/Finney they can find two guards rather than attack the position. Add a tier 1 FA and round 1 or 2 draft pick and then we're talking.

We are couples away from really competing,  I would not go big splash FA lineman, build in draft and assess after next season

[*ochocincos*]

(11-18-2020, 10:28 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We are couples away from really competing,  I would not go big splash FA lineman, build in draft and assess after next season

This team is probably more than just a couple players away from contending.

They could use 1, maybe 2 better receivers. AJ Green is not what he was, Tate still isn't where he needs to be, and Sample is Sample.
They MIGHT be ok at G if two of Jordan, Spain, and XSF can play solid-or-better through the rest of the season.
If Hart continues to play like he did the past couple games before his injury, the team can get by with him and Williams at OT while a draft pick can be groomed.

On defense, they need 2-3 more pass rushers. Only Carl Lawson has doubled-digit pressures (sacks+hits+hurries).
They don't have enough quality depth at CB to be able to get by, especially if WJ3 and/or Alexander leave in FA. We also don't know what Trae Waynes will look like in this defensive scheme.
Last, I think this hybrid scheme is making it difficult for the front 7. You have 4-3 DEs being asked to drop into coverage. You have Atkins being asked to play NT. They need to pick their primary scheme and get players that fit it. Stop trying to put square pegs into round holes.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-17-2020, 06:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hopefully Adeniji has made himself difficult to bench. Kid started a RT in college and have experience on both sides. 

One thing I didn't know about Hakeem until recently was that he received an appointment to the Air Force Academy, but got his offer withdrawn due to peanut allergy. 

If he hadn't had the dream of following his brother's foot steps at the Academy he may have pursued bigger schools and gone much earlier in the draft. 

Hell, I wouldn't be mad if they kept him at LT and saw what Jonah could do at RT. 

Cool stuff Bfine, didn't know that about Adeniji. Really like this kid for the future.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-19-2020, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This team is probably more than just a couple players away from contending.

They could use 1, maybe 2 better receivers. AJ Green is not what he was, Tate still isn't where he needs to be, and Sample is Sample.
They MIGHT be ok at G if two of Jordan, Spain, and XSF can play solid-or-better through the rest of the season.
If Hart continues to play like he did the past couple games before his injury, the team can get by with him and Williams at OT while a draft pick can be groomed.

On defense, they need 2-3 more pass rushers. Only Carl Lawson has doubled-digit pressures (sacks+hits+hurries).
They don't have enough quality depth at CB to be able to get by, especially if WJ3 and/or Alexander leave in FA. We also don't know what Trae Waynes will look like in this defensive scheme.
Last, I think this hybrid scheme is making it difficult for the front 7. You have 4-3 DEs being asked to drop into coverage. You have Atkins being asked to play NT. They need to pick their primary scheme and get players that fit it. Stop trying to put square pegs into round holes.

Sorry meant couple years away

[Essex Johnson]

(11-17-2020, 06:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hopefully Adeniji has made himself difficult to bench. Kid started a RT in college and have experience on both sides. 

One thing I didn't know about Hakeem until recently was that he received an appointment to the Air Force Academy, but got his offer withdrawn due to peanut allergy. 

If he hadn't had the dream of following his brother's foot steps at the Academy he may have pursued bigger schools and gone much earlier in the draft. 

Hell, I wouldn't be mad if they kept him at LT and saw what Jonah could do at RT. 

60 PFF game seems low..Hart the grading the best of his Bengals career before hurt above avg by PFF standards.. if healthy he should start at RT

[DYT_Bengal]

I thought the issue with Hart was that he missed key blocks? You can’t have that.

[*bfine32*]

(11-19-2020, 08:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: 60 PFF game seems low..Hart the grading the best of his Bengals career before hurt above avg by PFF standards.. if healthy he should start at RT

I have no problem with Hart starting at RT, but HA has been playing LT. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-19-2020, 08:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have no problem with Hart starting at RT, but HA has been playing LT. 

Jonah if healthy HAS to start though.

Adeniji can play Guard, would take him over Redmond in a red hot minute if XSF ain't ready to go.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-19-2020, 08:43 PM)willieFANderson Wrote: I thought the issue with Hart was that he missed key blocks? You can’t have that.

then he would not be grading as well as he has.. all line have missed key blocks.. Hart being one of them.. the bottom line is Hart was playing probably the best he has played as a Bengal before hurt and was playing better than others.. unless not ready or a bit of rust he is our best option at RT. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-16-2020, 04:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: From PFF_Bengals on Twitter:


Adeniji and Spain did decent given one is a rookie 6th round pick and the other is used to playing OG.

They had ability to play Price and/or Finney instead of Redmond/Jordan, but they chose to stick with Redmond and Jordan anyway.
When I mention Price, I don't mean put him at OG. I would have put Price at C and move Hopkins to LG or RG.

How long is it going to take before the Bengals realize that Redmond and Jordan just are not good and shouldn't be starting?
Do you think they replace one or both of them once Williams, XSF, and/or Hart are back?

The numbers for Spain here might cast him aside in some folk's mind, but remember, he played tackle against pitt.  And I don't think he has ever done that before.  He was really good at guard coming in as he did, and many of the Bengals (players and coaches) have commented about his energy.  I think he might be the best solution at RG or LG.

I am not so sure about XSF.  Aside from having an easy abbreviation name, like ADG, he has only played a part of one game.  That being said, Jordan, Redmond, Price, and Finney are kind of all the same, below average, temporary solution.  Quickness seems to destroy all of them (although I don't really know about Finney).

The tackle position is a little clearer:  Hart was finally playing solid ball before the injury.  We will see if that trend continues down the stretch.  Adeniji has been a real find.  Not many rookies, especially 6th rounders, came in and played well at OT off the bench as he has done.  If Hart falters, you have Adeniji as the potential RT of the future.  Jonah is our LT.  He has done all this in what is essentially his rookie season and with different players next to him all the time. 

The one thing we need for certain is a bully at OG that still has the quicks to be a good pass blocker but can anchor and pull in the running game.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-16-2020, 04:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He may have a high ceiling, but how long will it take to get there? For the past 1.5 seasons, he's been arguably the worst starter.

This is Hart's 5th year in the league....Ugh.  I don't want to see Jordan get that kind of leash if we have guys like Spain available or, perhaps, XSF.  I am not saying cut the guy, but he clearly is struggling. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-17-2020, 06:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hopefully Adeniji has made himself difficult to bench. Kid started a RT in college and have experience on both sides. 

One thing I didn't know about Hakeem until recently was that he received an appointment to the Air Force Academy, but got his offer withdrawn due to peanut allergy. 

If he hadn't had the dream of following his brother's foot steps at the Academy he may have pursued bigger schools and gone much earlier in the draft. 

Hell, I wouldn't be mad if they kept him at LT and saw what Jonah could do at RT. 

Adeniji has been a steal as a rd 6 pick, and doing what he has done at both tackle spots as a non-starting rookie, during covid, with no preseason is really dame impressive.  

That being said, right now as long as Hart continues to grade out in the 70s, I keep him as top-tier quality depth that can back up both OT positions.  Based on this season alone, he will get plenty of action.  

Imagine the Bengals have a serious injury to Hart of Williams next year during a season where they are at or around .500 in the middle of the season.  Having this guy come off your bench is a tremendous value. 

I am glad they didn't mess with putting him at G (which is what I wanted, initially) and they have just stayed with OT for him.  He is an extremely valuable asset right now.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-18-2020, 12:58 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'd set Jordan for awhile and play Spain and XFS. And I'd probably give Finney a look to see what he can do. We know what Redmond is and isn't. I wouldn't cut Jordan's playing time to nothing, but Spain would play most snaps....

Absolutely.  I don't think you are stunting Jordan's development by doing this, but evaluating what you have in guys like Spain and Finney.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-19-2020, 08:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Jonah if healthy HAS to start though.

Adeniji can play Guard, would take him over Redmond in a red hot minute if XSF ain't ready to go.

This is likely to start a shit storm blowing in my direction, so I responded to your post as others might ignore it  .

If you truly value the guard position and look at the interior linemen the Bengals face in the division, maybe you consider moving Jonah Williams to LG and Adeniji to LT.  If Williams could be a Joe Thuney/Quinten Nelson at LG, and Adeniji and Hart could be 75 rated OTs, the offensive line might be better than any we have had in recent history, and my a large margin.  

The only knock on Jonah has been arm length.  Not saying that has shown in his play, but he is built more like a guard, and I doubt the speed issues that have plagued virtually every other guard we have rolled out there would be an issue.  

It simply doesn't work in reverse if you try to put Adeniji, as he has always been a tackle and seems to have his strengths for that skill set, whereas I think Jonah could be successful at any position.

And for those discounting the Guard position (like the Bengals?), look at how the solid play at OT has helped this team run the ball and protect the QB...it really hasn't.  The guard play has been, largely, awful.  

[Hoofhearted]

(11-20-2020, 10:58 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is likely to start a shit storm blowing in my direction, so I responded to your post as others might ignore it  .

If you truly value the guard position and look at the interior linemen the Bengals face in the division, maybe you consider moving Jonah Williams to LG and Adeniji to LT.  If Williams could be a Joe Thuney/Quinten Nelson at LG, and Adeniji and Hart could be 75 rated OTs, the offensive line might be better than any we have had in recent history, and my a large margin.  

The only knock on Jonah has been arm length.  Not saying that has shown in his play, but he is built more like a guard, and I doubt the speed issues that have plagued virtually every other guard we have rolled out there would be an issue.  

It simply doesn't work in reverse if you try to put Adeniji, as he has always been a tackle and seems to have his strengths for that skill set, whereas I think Jonah could be successful at any position.

And for those discounting the Guard position (like the Bengals?), look at how the solid play at OT has helped this team run the ball and protect the QB...it really hasn't.  The guard play has been, largely, awful.  

He played a guard for a little while and wasn't that good. Wanna say vs the Browns?