Drew Sample is a Bum

[t3r3e3]

(11-16-2020, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Taylor's system just doesn't throw much to the TE.

The 2018 Rams threw for over 4500 yards and their leading TE, Gerald Everett, just had 320 yards. 

Last year Eifert caught 43 passes, but that was because our #2 and #3 WRs were Alex Erickson (43 rec) and Auden Tate (40 rec).

But I don't know why so many people are obsessing on trashing Sample.  How many people really think he is holding back this offense? 

There are only 26 TEs with as many as 20 receptions.  So it isn't like all 32 teams have super start TEs making tons of catches.  And among those 26 Sample is 8th in catch % (71.4).  His yards/target ranking is lower (19th) but far from the "bum" range.

Imagine having a WR trio of DK Metcalf, Higgins, and Boyd, and using the off-season savings of letting AJ walk towards paying a guard who didn’t suck, and Burrow is still playing? Sample has underperformed against TE’s drafted far later in 2019. He does not move the needle, and was a terrible draft pick.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-30-2020, 02:44 PM)Destro Wrote: This.

On the Bengals we are talking about Sample?Drew F***ing Sample?

Exactly what most people said when we called his name at the draft...

[Whatever]

(11-30-2020, 02:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Erickson is listed right on there.  I didn't bother listing Ross because he's only played in 2 games.

Have you seen the type of catches Tate attempts to make vs. Sample?  Could that help explain the difference in catch % for Sample vs really any of our receivers?

He mostly catches little 5 yard dumpoffs.  He's had a couple across the middle, and one nice one on the sideline, but the overwhelming majority have bs dink and dunk, that 99.9% of the skill position players in the league would make at an equal rate.

Auden Tate is a 7th round receiver people wanted to get reps as our #4/5.  Drew Sample is a 2nd round TE that is now our #1 TE in a pass heavy offense.  If your argument is to pit Sample against a low draft pick and role player, then you're basically proving the point.  The guy has absolutely no business being a #1 TE, nor should he have been taken in the first 4 rounds.

You blatantly added players that weren't WR's and omitted players that were to make a BS counterargument not rooted in fact.

If you're curving based on draft round, why do you trash Erickson as a returner all the time?

And what has Tate mainly caught this year?  Give up screens on 3rd downs, sitting down in zone, and busted coverages.  He made a handful of tough grabs against a washed up J-Jo who found himself unemployed the next day.  He's a WR.  He should have a better YPT than a "bum TE."

[Destro]

(11-30-2020, 02:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly what most people said when we called his name at the draft...

True, because I was one of them. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-30-2020, 02:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: You blatantly added players that weren't WR's and omitted players that were to make a BS counterargument not rooted in fact.

If you're curving based on draft round, why do you trash Erickson as a returner all the time?

And what has Tate mainly caught this year?  Give up screens on 3rd downs, sitting down in zone, and busted coverages.  He made a handful of tough grabs against a washed up J-Jo who found himself unemployed the next day.  He's a WR.  He should have a better YPT than a "bum TE."

I didn't blatantly add anything.  We are having a discussion about a Tight Ends production in the pass game.  What is so wrong with me adding another Tight End (Uzomah) in my list?

I listed Erickson, but I didn't list Ross because he's been inactive for 2 months.

You said that Sample has outperformed the majority of our Wide Receivers, and I'm asking which Wide Receivers are you referring to?  By what measure is he outperforming them?

If your argument is that a 2nd round, and now #1 TE is outperforming an inactive John Ross, and WR Alex Erickson then I'd say you're really reaching to look for excuses to defend clearly sub-par play. And Auden Tate is WR4 and sees the field a fraction of the time Sample does.

[impactplaya]

(11-30-2020, 02:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: You blatantly added players that weren't WR's and omitted players that were to make a BS counterargument not rooted in fact.

If you're curving based on draft round, why do you trash Erickson as a returner all the time?

And what has Tate mainly caught this year?  Give up screens on 3rd downs, sitting down in zone, and busted coverages.  He made a handful of tough grabs against a washed up J-Jo who found himself unemployed the next day.  He's a WR.  He should have a better YPT than a "bum TE."

Erickson gets trashed cause every year he gets handed the punt return job and absolutley makes zero impact in the return game.
Most kick returners are late rd picks or undrafted free agents.
No GM drafting a RB or WR in the top 3 rds cause " gee can he 
Return kicks too!???"

There was a day he returned KOs and he was pedestrian with it.
Then all of a sudden Brandon Wilson comes around and shows Erickson what a real KO looks like. 

Auden Tate still.isnt being used correctly by ZT. 
One game he is featured and he produces.
Then weeks later his snap drops.
Zac Taylor whole offensive philosophy was based on handing
The ball.to Burrow and saying "kid do that magic you did at 
LSU." 
His coaching identity was facilated through Burrows arm.
And look now...Zac really is lost as OC. Number RB and QB done. Zac head is spinning.

[Wes Mantooth]

Fwiw, here are some interesting stats concerning snap scouts among some of our lower tier receivers.

Drew Sample is 3rd on the team (behind only Joe Burrow, and Tyler Boyd) in total snaps played in 2020. He's played 595 snaps.

He's played more snaps than both Green and Higgins.

--Auden Tate has played 164 snaps.

--Michael Thomas has played 187 snaps.

--Alex Erickson has played 42 snaps.

--John Ross has played 87 snaps.

When you look at someone like Sample vs. a Tate or a Thomas, is he really outplaying them, or are they getting less work because they're buried on the depth chart, where as Sample is seeing a ton of work?

The opportunity for Sample has been there, yet the numbers are absolutely horrendous.

[Wes Mantooth]

Guess where Sample ranks among all Tight Ends, in the entire NFL, in snaps played?

He ranks 8th. https://www.lineups.com/nfl/snap-counts/tight-end-te-snap-counts

He's had the 8th amount of total snaps played in the league at his postion. This in one of the most pass heavy offenses in the entire league.

He's top 5 in routes run.

Yet his ranks are all 25 or below. Really think about that. This guy is getting ample opportunity yet he does little to nothing.

Are we to believe that he's out there getting open and Joe Burrow just refused to throw it to an open receiver?

Are we to beieve that Zac Taylor has him running routes to not get open?

Or is more plausible that, despite all the work and opportunity, this guy just can't get open very often?

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-30-2020, 02:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: If you're curving based on draft round, why do you trash Erickson as a returner all the time?

Because he's a terrible returner???

I don't recall ever saying that Auden Tate should be our #1 receiver, and keep the job for years and years.

Auden Tate is perfectly fine WR4/5.  There's not much I can gripe about with that spot.

Alex Erickson is a below average PR, who offers little to nothing else in the pass game.

These are two completely different debates.

[Whatever]

(11-30-2020, 03:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I didn't blatantly add anything.  We are having a discussion about a Tight Ends production in the pass game.  What is so wrong with me adding another Tight End (Uzomah) in my list?

I listed Erickson, but I didn't list Ross because he's been inactive for 2 months.

You said that Sample has outperformed the majority of our Wide Receivers, and I'm asking which Wide Receivers are you referring to?  By what measure is he outperforming them?

If your argument is that a 2nd round, and now #1 TE is outperforming an inactive John Ross, and WR Alex Erickson then I'd say you're really reaching to look for excuses to defend clearly sub-par play.  And Auden Tate is WR4 and sees the field a fraction of the time Sample does.

C'mon maaaaaaannnnn....

You omitted Ross, a WR, because he only played 2 games but decided to add Uzomah, a TE, who also only played in 2 games.  That's how I know you were blatantly adding and removing guys to skew the stats in your favor. And the statement you bolded and claimed was false specifically compared him to WR's.  

Sample has been mediocre.  He's also the #2 TE and wouldn't be seeing near the snaps he has if CJ hadn't gotten hurt.  Backups like Adeniji don't get call out threads when they don't play well.  Quite the opposite, actually.  #4 WR is also equivalent to #2 TE on the depth chart, so the Tate comparison is valid.  

Point being, there are a lot of guys on this team that have played worse than Sample that don't see near the hate.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-30-2020, 03:55 PM)Whatever Wrote:  Sample has been mediocre.

Agree to disagree.  I will leave it at that. :andy:

[impactplaya]

Their 2 kinds of players in the league
Those who make plays or those who get played.

Sample gets played.

[GreenCornBengal]

(11-30-2020, 03:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Guess where Sample ranks among all Tight Ends, in the entire NFL, in snaps played?

He ranks 8th. https://www.lineups.com/nfl/snap-counts/tight-end-te-snap-counts

He's had the 8th amount of total snaps played in the league at his postion. This in one of the most pass heavy offenses in the entire league.

He's top 5 in routes run.

Yet his ranks are all 25 or below. Really think about that. This guy is getting ample opportunity yet he does little to nothing.

Are we to believe that he's out there getting open and Joe Burrow just refused to throw it to an open receiver?

Are we to beieve that Zac Taylor has him running routes to not get open?

Or is more plausible that, despite all the work and opportunity, this guy just can't get open very often?

To me this is a scheme issue. Why is he top 5 in routes run when we can’t protect our QB and this guy was supposedly drafted for blocking. It’s blatant misuse of his skill set IMO.

I’d love to see the route tree, because he isn’t running little sit down routes over the middle and he should be. Either that or he is just invisible to Joe which seems unlikely.

There has been little adjustment to the scheme throughout the year and it’s sad. It doesn’t help guys like Sample make a contribution to the team.

[*bengalfan74*]

I've been holding out hope Sample was going to blossom this season. But he sure seems to be leaning hard towards bust.

[TSwigZ]

If we took Sample in the 4th round or later I wouldn’t be nearly as disappointed.

[fredtoast]

(11-30-2020, 01:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Do you think calling him "not top 20" is a little ridiculous?  Not only is he not "top 20", he's not top 30.

23rd in receptions
28th in yards
14th in catch% (among 33 TEs with at least 20 rec)
21st in yds/target (min 20 rec)
25th in yds/rec (min 20 rec)

You can't really conclude anything from his usage rate because it appears that in Taylors offense the TE is one of the last options on any pass play.  As Burrow goes through his reads Sample is just not one of the top options.  This was the same when Taylor was in LA.  I know he was not the oC with the Rams, but the systems the run are supposed to be similar.

[Hoofhearted]

What's his pass and run block scores (for those that have PFF premium)? I thought I seen on twitter that he was ranked top 10 in both those categories.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-30-2020, 05:57 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've been holding out hope Sample was going to blossom this season. But he sure seems to be leaning hard towards bust.

I think he's doing exactly what they drafted him to do. Problem is, the price was way too high for what they ask him to do. 

[Whatever]

(11-30-2020, 05:43 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: To me this is a scheme issue. Why is he top 5 in routes run when we can’t protect our QB and this guy was supposedly drafted for blocking. It’s blatant misuse of his skill set IMO.

I’d love to see the route tree, because he isn’t running little sit down routes over the middle and he should be. Either that or he is just invisible to Joe which seems unlikely.

There has been little adjustment to the scheme throughout the year and it’s sad. It doesn’t help guys like Sample make a contribution to the team.

Part of it is scheme and part of it is the QB.  One of the things that made Burrow great in college is he has tremendous ball placement.  Joe can and will stick it in to tight windows to WR's down the the field instead of checking down to the TE.  Against NY, he was targeted 6 times because we're playing with a backup QB who will check it down because he can't make the throws Burrow does.

He runs a lot of routes, but his responsibility on a lot of those is to chip the edge to help the T, then release into the pattern as a check down option.  The Rams use Everett in a similar capacity and both are near the bottom of the league in Targeted Air Yards.  Per Next Gen Stats, Sample is 6th among TE's in getting separation, 11th in catch %, and his YAC is dead even with his Expected YAC.  Basically, he can get open, make the catches he's supposed to make, and get the yards he should get after the catch.  He's terrible in contested catch situations, though.  Worth a 2nd round pick?  Not at this stage.  A bum?  Not hardly.

[Ghost of ikcey]

(11-16-2020, 01:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did anyone catch that play where Burrow scrambled left, all the way to the sideline, and dumped off like a 2 yard pass to Sample?  It was really a throwaway play, with no chance of success.  But I do think it kind of sums the abilities of Drew Sample.

Few, if any Tight Ends, make that catch in bounds.  And it wouldn't have mattered much if he tapped his feet in, as we would have picked up all of 2 yards on a 3rd and long.  So I'm not knocking him for that.  But what really struck me was, not only did he drop a pass lobbed to him from 6 feet away, he akwardly got all tangled up and fell down.  It just looked so unathletic.

Anways, all of the above isn't really my main point, was just curious if anyone else had a laugh at that.  My point, that Drew Sample is a bum, is based on all of what we've seen so far.

Drew Sample has 183 yards throught 9 games, with 6 of them being starts, and with him seeing a TON of reps.  He's projecting to finish the season with 325 receiving.  This is an offense that has attempted more passes than any other team in the league (more opportunites).  This is an offense, where another fellow 2nd rounder in Tee Higgins, is immediately producing as a rookie, who is projected to finish with 1,072 yards and 7 TD's.

If you look at his total body of work, which account for both seasons, he's played in 18 games.  In those 18 games he has 213 yards receiving.  That is astonishing low for any TE, much less 2nd round pick.

And making things even more ridiculous, he has ZERO TD's.  Zip, zilch, nada.  Not one single TD.  When he's had the opportunity he dropped one, and had a guy basically just outmuscle him and take the ball away from him for an iNT.

His current target average is 6.5 yards.  Really think about this number.  It tells you exactly what you see when you actually watch him targeted.  He's a check down, dump off target, with absolutely no ability to catch the ball beyond 10 yards.

Oh, and in just in case anyone wants to make the case he's too busy blocking to contribute in the pass game.  He was 3rd in the league in routes run going into last week game.  Not to mention the fact, you don't draft Tight Ends to in the 2nd round to block.

I'll wrap it up here, as none of this is really needed for people that actually pay attention to this guy.  Just look and you'll see that he's a total bum of a player.  He would have been a bad pick even in the 3rd or 4th.  You can get guys like this late in the draft or off the street.  Whoever call for or signed off on this pick should be immediately fired,

This was a Zac Taylor  special. Garbage ? ?