Where We Are and Best Case Scenario

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-08-2021, 02:25 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Dude I’m not a die on the hill fan for Ross I just honestly would rather sign him to a 1 year last chance deal instead of spending a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a tylan Wallace although I’m a fan or a brown(fan as well) etc.  if ross could give us a year of snaps healthy I think the return would be much more than any mid round draft pick or day 2 guy.  Non are the  talent Ross is and before I see this kid possibly go off on another team if we can keep him for a year I’d rather do that and build the trenches in our early rounds.  That’s all I’m saying.

I was a Ross supporter for awhile but last year he was a healthy scratch for like half the season. He is a bust.

Just doesn't have it mentally to play in the NFL.

Need to go O-line early and D-line depending on FA and get one of the speedsters Pulses mention in the mid rounds.

Darden, Wallace, Rodgers, Dyami Brown, Terrance Marshall (if he lasts, doubt it) Elijah Moore, Tammarion Terry etc.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(03-08-2021, 03:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I was a Ross supporter for awhile but last year he was a healthy scratch for like half the season. He is a bust.

Just doesn't have it mentally to play in the NFL.

Need to go O-line early and D-line depending on FA and get one of the speedsters Pulses mention in the mid rounds.

Darden, Wallace, Rodgers, Dyami Brown, Terrance Marshall (if he lasts, doubt it) Elijah Moore, Tammarion Terry etc.

Browns my fav of the group. But I don’t want to spend anything as early as a third on a wideout. Ross is such a bummer

[Whatever]

(03-08-2021, 01:32 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: All this talk about Boyd in the slot... so, where did Boyd line up when A.J. missed the entire year? Wait... he lined up outside....

Higgins, lines up... yup outside.

I love how people like you keep moving the goalposts on discussions about needs. The statement is the team needs a WR that can stretch the field and make defenses respect the deep ball so we have to draft Chase at 5. Meanwhile, there is guys in round 2, 3, and 4 that can come in and...stretch the field and make a defense respect them.... but now they have to be none developmental, and not slot only outside and... yawn... 

Every single draft pick is a developmental guy. They haven't played in the NFL...so they have to develop and adjust. Just because you have your mind set that Chase is the only way to go at 5, doesn't mean that a late round WR wouldn't actually fix the problems we have. The mock draft that NATI posted would actually be an amazing outcome for this team even though it doesn't include your preferred guy.

WTF are you talking about?  Boyd had 661 yards our of the slot last year, 2/3 of his production.  He's so bad on the outside that even with a complete lack of other options, they still mostly used him in the slot.

I don't think I've ever said we have to take Chase at 5.  What I've said is there is a need for an outside WR that is a vertical threat and Chase should be an option at 5.  I've repeatedly stated that I'd be happy with Sewell, Chase, or Pitts at 5.  What I don't want is Sewell to be gone and wind up reaching for the next available T.

How many 4th round WR's come in and are productive as rookies?  Not many.  In today's NFL, you're top 3 WR's are starters.  Would you drop a 4th round pick on a TE, DE, S, T, or CB, expect them to start immediately, and say you've adequately addressed that position?  No, you wouldn't.  Every draft pick is a developmental prospect, but some are more ready to contribute immediately than others.  Day 3 are generally not.  Even 3rd rounders are mostly not ready to be starters.    

Dude, seriously.  This mock had a great FA/trade that got us 2 quality OL.  The draft fell off the rails.  By his own admission, he took a bad trade to move back to #19.  Then, even though he shored up T with Havenstein, he makes a massive reach for a LT in Eichenberg who he is then going to try to convert to RG.  He then takes an Edge/stack LB tweener who he himself says he's not sure where to play him and a C who can't stay on the field and will miss a bunch of OTA's in 2.  

[pulses]

(03-08-2021, 02:25 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Dude I’m not a die on the hill fan for Ross I just honestly would rather sign him to a 1 year last chance deal instead of spending a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a tylan Wallace although I’m a fan or a brown(fan as well) etc.  if ross could give us a year of snaps healthy I think the return would be much more than any mid round draft pick or day 2 guy.  Non are the  talent Ross is and before I see this kid possibly go off on another team if we can keep him for a year I’d rather do that and build the trenches in our early rounds.  That’s all I’m saying.

If Ross had as much talent as you think he does don't you think he would've already proved it by now? He's very fragile and was hurt in college and has been hurt here as well. And when healthy he wasn't doing all that much anyways. I'd take Wallace or Brown over him any day. Brown should be there in the 3rd or 4th. Wallace and Moore will be gone by then.

[Murdock2420]

(03-08-2021, 06:55 PM)Whatever Wrote:  He's so bad on the outside that even with a complete lack of other options, they still mostly used him in the slot.

Wow... the just absolute wrong and stupidity in that statement makes me feel the need to ignore you.

Boyd can, and has played outside the slot. Last season, he didn't have to because of Higgins and Green... that's not a lack of options, since Higgins was breaking out and Green was still a name drawing number one coverage.

Boyd was drafted (and you can look this up and find it several places written) with the intentions that he would start out in the slot and then as he developed push for more time on the outside.

But hey, you want to shit on the players we have that are actually good, knock yourself out. It amazes me that people who are supposed to be "fans" of the team, want to believe that the players on the team all suck....

[Murdock2420]

(03-08-2021, 03:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I was a Ross supporter for awhile but last year he was a healthy scratch for like half the season. He is a bust.

Just doesn't have it mentally to play in the NFL.

Need to go O-line early and D-line depending on FA and get one of the speedsters Pulses mention in the mid rounds.

Darden, Wallace, Rodgers, Dyami Brown, Terrance Marshall (if he lasts, doubt it) Elijah Moore, Tammarion Terry etc.

He is another interesting name that I've seen in all different rounds of mocks, really hard to figure out where to place him.

[pulses]

(03-08-2021, 10:59 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: He is another interesting name that I've seen in all different rounds of mocks, really hard to figure out where to place him.

I've saw Brown in the 3rd and 4th mostly.  6'1 185 lbs with plenty of speed and does a good job of catching the deep ball even on contested catches. had 55 catches for 1099 yards last yr for basically 20 yards per catch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhtz9YOM5W0

[Whatever]

(03-08-2021, 10:57 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Wow... the just absolute wrong and stupidity in that statement makes me feel the need to ignore you.

Boyd can, and has played outside the slot. Last season, he didn't have to because of Higgins and Green... that's not a lack of options, since Higgins was breaking out and Green was still a name drawing number one coverage.

Boyd was drafted (and you can look this up and find it several places written) with the intentions that he would start out in the slot and then as he developed push for more time on the outside.

But hey, you want to shit on the players we have that are actually good, knock yourself out. It amazes me that people who are supposed to be "fans" of the team, want to believe that the players on the team all suck....

In '19, Boyd caught 57 of 88 targets in the slot, a 64.7% catch %.  He caught 33 of 60 outside targets, a 55% catch rate.  This year, he caught 69 of 93 targets in the slot, good for a 74.1% catch rate.  He caught 10 of 17 outside targets for a 58.8% catch rate.  A catch % in the mid 50's is bad.  A catch % in the mid 60's is pretty good.  A catch % in the mid 70's is outstanding.  He is not a good outside WR.  He is a very good slot WR.

Billy Price was drafted to be the starting C.  Not a lot of draft picks turn out to be what they were intended to be.  Boyd has had a ton of opportunities, but he is not a starting caliber outside WR.  You can leave him in the slot and you can continue to watch him play well or you can move him outside and watch him struggle.  The reality is that it's going to be easier to find an outside WR that's better than Boyd on the outside than a slot WR that's better than Boyd is in the slot.  Trying to sign or draft a slot WR and moving Boyd outside is stupid because it's diminishing returns.  

It's not any more shitting on Boyd to say he sucks as an outside WR than it is shitting on Burrow by saying he's not a running QB like Lamar Jackson.  Boyd is a good player.  Play him to his strengths and put him in the slot and he'll continue to be a good player.  Play him outside in a role he's not suited for and he's not going to be a good player anymore.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-08-2021, 06:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: Dude, seriously.  This mock had a great FA/trade that got us 2 quality OL.  The draft fell off the rails.  By his own admission, he took a bad trade to move back to #19.  Then, even though he shored up T with Havenstein, he makes a massive reach for a LT in Eichenberg who he is then going to try to convert to RG.  He then takes an Edge/stack LB tweener who he himself says he's not sure where to play him and a C who can't stay on the field and will miss a bunch of OTA's in 2.  

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was in their favor, and that was just to get ahead of people saying it was unrealistic. Rarely is a trade going to work out perfectly fair in the eyes of all. Dropping in the first round and staying in the teens and adding an extra 2nd and 3rd is a best case scenario. As I said we have a ton of work to do on this roster, two extra day two picks would help out a lot.

Eichenberg in the first is not a reach. He hasn't given up a sack in over two years and has gotten better every year. And the best offensive linemen on the team usually ends up at LT in college. Just so happens Notre Dame has been pumping out good NFL OL. Eichenberg is going to add to that list.

Ossai is a tweener because he can do both not because he doesn't have a spot. We want to have a multiple look defense. FYI having a guy who can do more than one thing helps us do that.

Watching Dickerson's injury it sure looked like a freak thing. Guys get hurt in football all the time. He is a stud when he is on the field. This goes back the good old Munoz argument. If it was a skill position player with multiple lower body injuries it would scare me away. But OL it doesn't seem to impact as much long term. Seeing the quote from an anonymous NFL exec on his draft profile on NFL.com made me smile, and want him even more. "I love him. I know some people around the league think he's still under the radar, but I doubt that. He reminds me of Mountain from 'Game of Thrones'. Just big and strong and tough." -- Executive for NFL team I'll gladly plug the Mountain into the middle of our line.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(03-08-2021, 09:07 PM)pulses Wrote: If Ross had as much talent as you think he does don't you think he would've already proved it by now? He's very fragile and was hurt in college and has been hurt here as well. And when healthy he wasn't doing all that much anyways. I'd take Wallace or Brown over him any day. Brown should be there in the 3rd or 4th. Wallace and Moore will be gone by then.

I’ve seen glimpses of Ross enough times to be awfully curious/curious enough to give him a 1 year last chance deal...IF Ross can stay healthy then I can’t imagine him with joe Burrow smh I just have to see that.

I understand the best ability is availability but yes from a pure talent perspective I think John Ross is more talented than the guys mentioned above. This team has so many holes above wr and the guy we need is already on this team imo it’s low risk high reward and don’t get me wrong I’ll take dyami brown for sure if he's there in the fourth but my first few picks need to hit the oline defensive end and either corner or interior dline, heck I may want to go guard again before I look at wide receiver. That’s just my opinion. I think resigning Ross and signing a guy like Josh Reynolds allows us to wait a lil bit before we approach the wide receiver position in the draft.

[Whatever]

(03-09-2021, 02:07 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I didn't say it was bad. I said it was in their favor, and that was just to get ahead of people saying it was unrealistic. Rarely is a trade going to work out perfectly fair in the eyes of all. Dropping in the first round and staying in the teens and adding an extra 2nd and 3rd is a best case scenario. As I said we have a ton of work to do on this roster, two extra day two picks would help out a lot.

Eichenberg in the first is not a reach. He hasn't given up a sack in over two years and has gotten better every year. And the best offensive linemen on the team usually ends up at LT in college. Just so happens Notre Dame has been pumping out good NFL OL. Eichenberg is going to add to that list.

Ossai is a tweener because he can do both not because he doesn't have a spot. We want to have a multiple look defense. FYI having a guy who can do more than one thing helps us do that.

Watching Dickerson's injury it sure looked like a freak thing. Guys get hurt in football all the time. He is a stud when he is on the field. This goes back the good old Munoz argument. If it was a skill position player with multiple lower body injuries it would scare me away. But OL it doesn't seem to impact as much long term. Seeing the quote from an anonymous NFL exec on his draft profile on NFL.com made me smile, and want him even more. "I love him. I know some people around the league think he's still under the radar, but I doubt that. He reminds me of Mountain from 'Game of Thrones'. Just big and strong and tough." -- Executive for NFL team I'll gladly plug the Mountain into the middle of our line.

#5 is worth 1700 per the trade value chart.  The picks you got are worth 1485.  The difference is basically us being shorted a 3rd rounder.  Trades rarely work out even, but there's a big difference between being shorted the equivalent of a 6th and being shorted a 3rd.

Eichenberg is ranked 42nd on average.  If you took him at 37, I don't think anyone would blink.  That's a huge reach in the first.  Not to mention, you're asking him to switch sides and positions.

It's hard enough for a rookie to come and do well just learning one position, let alone basically learning two to do multiple looks with him.  And we need an Edge and the kid only has one year of experience at the position.  

Dude has torn 2 ACL's and has also had a season ending ankle injury.  He's 6'6" and anything that winds up affecting his knee bend will have a big impact on leverage.  Plus, trench guys usually don't get back to full strength until the season after they're cleared.  C already has a steep learning curve and he will be behind It after year one and playing catch up.  And that's if he stays healthy.  Haven't we learned our lesson by burning premium picks on injured guys that are never able to catch up?

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-09-2021, 12:20 PM)Whatever Wrote: #5 is worth 1700 per the trade value chart.  The picks you got are worth 1485.  The difference is basically us being shorted a 3rd rounder.  Trades rarely work out even, but there's a big difference between being shorted the equivalent of a 6th and being shorted a 3rd.

Eichenberg is ranked 42nd on average.  If you took him at 37, I don't think anyone would blink.  That's a huge reach in the first.  Not to mention, you're asking him to switch sides and positions.

It's hard enough for a rookie to come and do well just learning one position, let alone basically learning two to do multiple looks with him.  And we need an Edge and the kid only has one year of experience at the position.  

Dude has torn 2 ACL's and has also had a season ending ankle injury.  He's 6'6" and anything that winds up affecting his knee bend will have a big impact on leverage.  Plus, trench guys usually don't get back to full strength until the season after they're cleared.  C already has a steep learning curve and he will be behind It after year one and playing catch up.  And that's if he stays healthy.  Haven't we learned our lesson by burning premium picks on injured guys that are never able to catch up?

Find me another team in that range who needs a QB and has the ammo in early draft picks to get it done.

You are acting like these preseason rankings are set in stone. They are never spot on. The guy is almost unanimously viewed as a 1st or early 2nd. Him going in the first would shock no one. 

He is coming in playing behind Lawson and Hubbard. And yes he is young and played like a demon during that one year. So he will only get better with experience.

Yep he is a gamble. Just like everyone else in the draft. I have no problem taking a gamble on the mammoth Rimington Award winner first team All American who was the best interior offensive linemen in college football last year. If he shakes the injury bug we hit on a top tier C or G. 

[Whatever]

(03-09-2021, 01:04 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Find me another team in that range who needs a QB and has the ammo in early draft picks to get it done.

You are acting like these preseason rankings are set in stone. They are never spot on. The guy is almost unanimously viewed as a 1st or early 2nd. Him going in the first would shock no one. 

He is coming in playing behind Lawson and Hubbard. And yes he is young and played like a demon during that one year. So he will only get better with experience.

Yep he is a gamble. Just like everyone else in the draft. I have no problem taking a gamble on the mammoth Rimington Award winner first team All American who was the best interior offensive linemen in college football last year. If he shakes the injury bug we hit on a top tier C or G. 

Why are we trying to trade down into that exact range?  SF's 1st, 2nd, and 5th is a near even trade.  We would still get shorted on NE's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but not as badly as the deal you took. 

Who is predicting that Eichenberg will be drafted at 19 to play G? It would not be a big surprise if he snuck into the bottom of 1 as a T, as teams will reach for T's.  They aren't reaching 23 spots at 19 for a G.  Plus, if you looked at his rating as a G, it would be significantly lower than 42.

Ossai had 5.5 sacks and we need pass rush.  There are going to be better edges available in that spot. 

How many guys have we drafted that were constantly injured in college that have been able to stay healthy as pro's?  If it was just the ACL this year, then maybe.  The guy is always hurt, though.  And I'm not as high on Hopkins as most, but he's at least serviceable, so it's not like this is a huge need pick, either.  Day 3, sure, roll the dice on a guy like this.  But a 2nd round pick?

[Hammerstripes]

(03-08-2021, 03:10 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'll just leave this here.....

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/patriots-have-met-clemson-receiver-amari-rodgers-multiple-times

A team that is better at NFL talent evaluator then you or anyone else on this board is meeting with him several times.... so let's just go ahead and say that if the hoodie sees something in him, then the rest of the league should probably take notice. Unless of course you believe you know more then the most successful NFL coach in recent history. 

The Patriots aren't exactly gold when it comes to the draft.  They make some savvy free agent moves, but they have had a ton of misses in the draft just like everyone else.

[pulses]

(03-09-2021, 11:34 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: I’ve seen glimpses of Ross enough times to be awfully curious/curious enough to give him a 1 year last chance deal...IF Ross can stay healthy then I can’t imagine him with joe Burrow smh I just have to see that.
 
I understand the best ability is availability but yes from a pure talent perspective I think John Ross is more talented than the guys mentioned above.  This team has so many holes above wr and the guy we need is already on this team imo it’s low risk high reward and don’t get me wrong I’ll take dyami brown for sure if he's there in the fourth but my first few picks need to hit the oline defensive end and either corner or interior dline, heck I may want to go guard again before I look at wide receiver.  That’s just my opinion.  I think resigning Ross and signing a guy like Josh Reynolds allows us to wait a lil bit before we approach the wide receiver position in the draft

rather pay a guy like Feiler 6 mill a year and draft a WR instead of doing it the other way around. The OL is so deep this year I think you'll find starters in the 5th and 6 th round on the OL.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-09-2021, 03:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: Why are we trying to trade down into that exact range?  SF's 1st, 2nd, and 5th is a near even trade.  We would still get shorted on NE's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but not as badly as the deal you took. 

Who is predicting that Eichenberg will be drafted at 19 to play G? It would not be a big surprise if he snuck into the bottom of 1 as a T, as teams will reach for T's.  They aren't reaching 23 spots at 19 for a G.  Plus, if you looked at his rating as a G, it would be significantly lower than 42.

Ossai had 5.5 sacks and we need pass rush.  There are going to be better edges available in that spot. 

How many guys have we drafted that were constantly injured in college that have been able to stay healthy as pro's?  If it was just the ACL this year, then maybe.  The guy is always hurt, though.  And I'm not as high on Hopkins as most, but he's at least serviceable, so it's not like this is a huge need pick, either.  Day 3, sure, roll the dice on a guy like this.  But a 2nd round pick?

Another reason I chose Wash is because they would still have one pick left on day two after the trade. Allowing them to try and build around their new QB. I could have just said trade back and get a 2nd and 3rd. But I gave a specific example of how it could happen. If you don't like it. Oh well.

1st team All Pro G 2020 Brandon Scherff. College LT drafted in the 1st.
2nd team All Pro G 2020 Joel Bitonio. College LT drafted 34th overall.

First year at the position and Ossai had 5.5 sacks 15.5 tackles for a loss and 33 pressures in 9 games... His ceiling is really high.

OL is a need. Here is the best OL from the best team in college football. And you don't see a fit. I think we could use him. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(03-09-2021, 08:02 PM)pulses Wrote: rather pay a guy like Feiler 6 mill a year and draft a WR instead of doing it the other way around. The OL is so deep this year I think you'll find starters in the 5th and 6 th round on the OL.

Burrow is dead and u wanna address the offensive line in the 5th and 6th round? Right on

[pulses]

(03-10-2021, 03:07 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Burrow is dead and u wanna address the offensive line in the 5th and 6th round? Right on

I said you could find starters that late i didnt say wait that late to address it. You obviously haven't been reading my other posts all over this site.

[Whatever]

(03-10-2021, 02:45 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Another reason I chose Wash is because they would still have one pick left on day two after the trade. Allowing them to try and build around their new QB. I could have just said trade back and get a 2nd and 3rd. But I gave a specific example of how it could happen. If you don't like it. Oh well.

1st team All Pro G 2020 Brandon Scherff. College LT drafted in the 1st.
2nd team All Pro G 2020 Joel Bitonio. College LT drafted 34th overall.

First year at the position and Ossai had 5.5 sacks 15.5 tackles for a loss and 33 pressures in 9 games... His ceiling is really high.

OL is a need. Here is the best OL from the best team in college football. And you don't see a fit. I think we could use him. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

I could honestly care less about the team trading up to 5 having other picks to build around their QB.  I care about the Bengals getting fair compensation for the pick,which you didn't get.

Scherff was also the #1 ranked G in his draft class.  Eichenberg is not. Not to mention Scherff was a much better prospect than Eichenberg. Bitonio was projected to have to move inside.  Both were highly rated G prospects.  Eichenberg isn't.  It's a massive reach.  You get poor value on the trade down and terrible value with your 1st round pick.

He does have a high ceiling.  He's also big project at a spot where we need immediate help.

I never said he's a bad player.  However, he doesn't help you at all if he can't stay healthy, which he hasn't been able to do.  If he can't hold up in college, what makes you think he can in the pros?  Have we not learned from our mistakes with these kinds of prospects, yet?  

[SadFaceBengal15]

(03-10-2021, 07:51 AM)pulses Wrote: I said you could find starters that late i didnt say wait that late to address it. You obviously haven't been reading my other posts all over this site.

Well I’m glad I’m wrong then.