NFL.com "AJ McCarron a better trade target than Garoppolo?"

[Fan_in_Kettering]

If the Bengals trade AJ McCarron, you know he'll become very good when he has a chance to start for an entire season no matter where he ends up playing. AJ has the elusive trait of of being able to play without fear which can't be taught; you either have it or you don't. Even prime time games weren't too big for AJ because he's been in the spotlight since he was at Alabama.

Four quarterbacks have played for the Bengals in the postseason since 2003 but only one quarterback in the Marvin Lewis had the lead in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. It wasn't Jon Kitna, Carson Palmer, or Andy Dalton.

Be careful what you're giving up.

[samhain]

(02-20-2017, 04:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If the Bengals trade AJ McCarron, you know he'll become very good when he has a chance to start for an entire season no matter where he ends up playing.  AJ has the elusive trait of of being able to play without fear which can't be taught; you either have it or you don't.  Even prime time games weren't too big for AJ because he's been in the spotlight since he was at Alabama.  

Four quarterbacks have played for the Bengals in the postseason since 2003 but only one quarterback in the Marvin Lewis had the lead in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. It wasn't Jon Kitna, Carson Palmer, or Andy Dalton.

Be careful what you're giving up.

I don't know that at all.  I know he played good enough to win vs a horrible 49ers team.  I know he played great for two quarters vs Denver until their defense adjusted and owned him in the 2nd half.  I know he posted 3 quarters of horrendous football vs less than great Steeler defense in the playoff game.  Nothing about his pro track record indicates he's a lock to be a long term franchise quarterback, much less very good.

The team AJ was quarterbacking was loaded.  They were probably better than Pittsburgh on paper.  Had Andy not been hurt, I think he'd have moved the ball fairly easily vs that defense, as he did up until the moment his season ended.

What he did at Bama means nothing here.  If it did, then every quarterback from a blue chip college program would be a star.  Greg McElroy would be a star.  Blake Sims would be starting in this league.  Cardale Jones would be number 1 on Buffalo's depth chart.  Troy Smith and Chad Henne would be making playoff runs.  Tim Tebow would still have a job in the league.  None of their time spent in the college spotlight did anything for them in the men's league.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-20-2017, 04:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If the Bengals trade AJ McCarron, you know he'll become very good when he has a chance to start for an entire season no matter where he ends up playing.  AJ has the elusive trait of of being able to play without fear which can't be taught; you either have it or you don't.  Even prime time games weren't too big for AJ because he's been in the spotlight since he was at Alabama.  

Four quarterbacks have played for the Bengals in the postseason since 2003 but only one quarterback in the Marvin Lewis had the lead in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. It wasn't Jon Kitna, Carson Palmer, or Andy Dalton.

Be careful what you're giving up.

You clearly don't remember when he was playing. The dude was constantly scrambling out of the pocket when he didn't need to, either running for 1 yard, or running right into a sack. Scared.

He was up against the 30th ranked pass defense and went 14-23 for 108 yards (4.7 YPA) with 0 TD/1 INT, 3 Sacks, and 3 Fumbles in the first three quarters of that playoff game. The Steelers scored 6 points off his turnovers. The only time he ever did anything was when the Bengals D gave him extremely short fields to work with. Keep in mind, that was with arguably the best passing weapons the Bengals have *ever* had, and he did that against the 30th ranked pass defense.

Meanwhile the defense held the 7th overall offense/10th scoring offense to 9 points that weren't off McCarron turnovers in the first three quarters. So go ahead and tell me how he's fearless and prime time games are no match for him, because I will still just recall the fact that he did absolute jack shit for almost the entirety of the game. If he had even just been mediocre, the Bengals would have blown the Steelers out with the way the defense was playing that day.

So I call thorough BS on that.

[*Nately120*]

(02-20-2017, 04:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Four quarterbacks have played for the Bengals in the postseason since 2003 but only one quarterback in the Marvin Lewis had the lead in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. It wasn't Jon Kitna, Carson Palmer, or Andy Dalton.

Be careful what you're giving up.

Palmer won the first playoff game he started outside of Cincy and Aaron Rodgers was on the other sideline.  Dalton could have a playoff win or two if he played for the Texans, or something.  No one we can get under center can win here in these circumstances and the fact that you are warning us of the follies of letting the QB who lost the least (sort of) in the post-season is quite telling, really.

I'm just saying that I'm not going to hold post-season bs that takes place here against the QBs any more than I'm going to blame McCarron for a lack of success if he were to be traded to the Browns and have very Browns-like seasons as a starter.

[wolfkaosaun]

(02-20-2017, 04:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If the Bengals trade AJ McCarron, you know he'll become very good when he has a chance to start for an entire season no matter where he ends up playing.  AJ has the elusive trait of of being able to play without fear which can't be taught; you either have it or you don't.  Even prime time games weren't too big for AJ because he's been in the spotlight since he was at Alabama.  

Four quarterbacks have played for the Bengals in the postseason since 2003 but only one quarterback in the Marvin Lewis had the lead in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. It wasn't Jon Kitna, Carson Palmer, or Andy Dalton.

Be careful what you're giving up.

No, you don't know that. There's a reason he lasted until the 5th round.

Don't care about Alabama. McCarron is 0-2 in primetime games in the NFL. That's what matters, not college. That was in 2013. It's 2017.

In those primetime games, he has thrown 2 TDs. Just 2. With a healthy AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Tyler Eifert, Mohamed Sanu, Jeremy Hill, and Gio Bernard. Also with a healthy offensive line.
But, in those two primetime games he had 1 INT and fumbled 4 times. He also passed for a total of 412 yards. 374 yards if you include the 5 sacks he took.

No Bengals QB under Marvin Lewis has had above a QB rating of 70. None.

Also, don't care about having the lead in the 4th quarter. He wasn't good the entire game. The defense deserves ALL the praise for that wildcard game. They held the Steelers to 15 points in the first 3 quarters. 15.
The 2015 Steelers had under 15 points only ONE other time under Big Ben. And that was against the Bengals. 8 games last season with Ben under center they scored 28+ points. 30+points 6 times.

Also, back to the playoff game since you would like to talk about that.

McCarron had 111 passing yards in the first 3 quarters. Along with an INT and 3 fumbles. During that, he averaged 4.1 yards per attempt. After the 4th? 5.17. Which, if he qualified for this year, would still be lower than Brock Osweiler, who ranked 30th.

"Oh but he's only a rookie technically that year!"
That's fair. So let's take a look at it then.

Cody Kessler last year playing in 9 total games had went 128 of 195. Completion percentage of 65.6%. Threw for 1380 yards. Had a YPA of 7.08. Threw for 6 TDs and 2 INTs. Had 4 fumbles. QB rating of 92.3.
AJ McCarron in 2015 playing in 7 total games had went 102 of 160.Completion percentage of 63.8%. Threw for 1,066 yards. Had a YPA of 6.7. Threw for 7 TDs and 3 INTs. Had 4 fumbles. QB rating of 89.7.

"Oh you can't possibly compare the two, it's not fair".

Of course it's not. McCarron had arguably the greatest Bengals team in the past 24 years. He had a healthy Green, Eifert, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Hill, and Gio. And offensive line that had given up a mere 20 sacks that entire year (12 games). McCarron was sacked 15 times in 5 games. Oh, and in 2014 the offensive line gave up only 21 sacks that entire year as well.
Kessler, on the other hand, was on the Browns. A team that had very little around him. He was throwing to a former QB. That was his #1 target. A guy who caught 2 passes his entire NFL career. Corey Coleman dealt with injuries all year. He had a below average offensive line, but still took only 21 sacks. 6 more than McCarron in less games.

McCarron isn't as good as some people make him out to be. Don't show a little part of the picture when you can zoom out and see so much more.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-19-2017, 01:16 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You can look at it that way, but I can also say that if Nugent doesn't miss a FG that would have put the Bengals up 17 on the road, in Denver, that the Bengals win that game (that goes to OT) and get the #1 seed in the playoffs.  

Consider the dropoff.  We all keep talking about Andy's pending death due to the offensive line woes (although I think they will address it and I am not as much Chicken Little as some), but if Dalton goes down, I think the Bengals could still win with McCarron.  Driskell?  Uh, not so much...

They sure aren't showing much in the way of solving those issues.  Turd position coach returning for his third decade?  Check.  Looking like they're letting our starting RG bolt for FA?  Check.  Reality that they do NOTHING in FA to replace said RG with someone at least as good as the departing player?  Check.  Rolling with human turnstiles at RT?  Check.  Going on a wing and a prayer that we even return our best o lineman who is 35?  Check.  Sticking with Blodine even though he consistently ranks as one of, if not THE, worst centers in the game?  Check.

Yeah, sue me for not having the warm and fuzzies about this unit.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-20-2017, 10:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Don't tell that to Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, and Jeff Hostettler....

....or Drew Bledsoe then Brady again....Jim Plunkett, Earl Morral.....

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-20-2017, 06:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: They sure aren't showing much in the way of solving those issues.  Turd position coach returning for his third decade?  Check.  Looking like they're letting our starting RG bolt for FA?  Check.  Reality that they do NOTHING in FA to replace said RG with someone at least as good as the departing player?  Check.  Rolling with human turnstiles at RT?  Check.  Going on a wing and a prayer that we even return our best o lineman who is 35?  Check.  Sticking with Blodine even though he consistently ranks as one of, if not THE, worst centers in the game?  Check.

Yeah, sue me for not having the warm and fuzzies about this unit.

^What he said^

I have very little faith they're going to fix the O-line ! They're going to keep PA's pet projects out there. They're going to let Z walk, Mikey boy won't pay interior linemen he thinks they're a dime a dozen and don't really matter. And Mikey thinks the piano man is a football genius even though we rank among the worst in YPC over the last decade. And we have a very quick releasing QB whom masks some of the pass pro issues.

McCarron would be mince meat behind this bunch and coach. If they get an offer for any 2nd round pick they better run and sign the deal. And get us some O-line help.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-20-2017, 06:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: They sure aren't showing much in the way of solving those issues.  Turd position coach returning for his third decade?  Check.  Looking like they're letting our starting RG bolt for FA?  Check.  Reality that they do NOTHING in FA to replace said RG with someone at least as good as the departing player?  Check.  Rolling with human turnstiles at RT?  Check.  Going on a wing and a prayer that we even return our best o lineman who is 35?  Check.  Sticking with Blodine even though he consistently ranks as one of, if not THE, worst centers in the game?  Check.

Yeah, sue me for not having the warm and fuzzies about this unit.

Well, would you rather them address it with players that are average in FA or would you rather do it through the draft, which happens to be pretty loaded at Guard?  

I thought Fisher played pretty well at RT once he was given the opportunity.  Draft guys like Feeney(2nd)  and Eiflein(3rd) and you have potentially improved both your RG and C position for less than one fourth the contract of Zeitler.  This allows you to sign a player like Terrelle Pryor (that's my pick, not many others...) or a veteran CB like Amukamura (I would also like him) instead of going with talent that you know is only similar to Zeitler and not improving any other position group.

The Bengals sure didn't do much from a personnel decision-making standpoint on the offensive line to earn our trust, I get that.  Ced O was a colossal bust....and they rode him right in to the 6-9-1 record, but I think they will not only be more than capable of replacing Zeitler, but they will also likely draft a Center to push Bodine and possibly replace him as his contract is up after 2018.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-21-2017, 08:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Well, would you rather them address it with players that are average in FA or would you rather do it through the draft, which happens to be pretty loaded at Guard?  

I thought Fisher played pretty well at RT once he was given the opportunity.  Draft guys like Feeney(2nd)  and Eiflein(3rd) and you have potentially improved both your RG and C position for less than one fourth the contract of Zeitler.  This allows you to sign a player like Terrelle Pryor (that's my pick, not many others...) or a veteran CB like Amukamura (I would also like him) instead of going with talent that you know is only similar to Zeitler and not improving any other position group.

The Bengals sure didn't do much from a personnel decision-making standpoint on the offensive line to earn our trust, I get that.  Ced O was a colossal bust....and they rode him right in to the 6-9-1 record, but I think they will not only be more than capable of replacing Zeitler, but they will also likely draft a Center to push Bodine and possibly replace him as his contract is up after 2018.

They won't get either one of those.  We all know this, nothing to see here.  They not only rode Og, they've been riding Blodine for what, three years?  His coach sucks, and so does he.

The problem with going through the draft is this:  the player HAS to be 100% NFL ready, cause he sure as shit ain't gonna get coached up to be ready with the Merry Band of Tenured Bums having a lifetime contract.  If this was any other staff and "FO", I'd be on board somewhat.....not these clowns. :paul: I mean, Zeitler was specifically recruited to Wisconsin, home of the road grader, to be a mauling run blocker.  He shows up in Cincy to get worse at run blocking.  I have ZERO faith in these imbeciles to coach up anyone, ZE---RO.

We drafted this kid, and then talked about needing to rollover money to sign him a couple of years ago, only to......let him walk because he played his way into a decent contract?  I'm with ya here, cause that's TOTALLY a signature Son of Paul move.  Pocket money, and kick the fans in the junk on the way to deposit it.  Talk about pissing down our collective legs and telling us it's raining!

Blodine should have been replaced after 2015.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-20-2017, 05:09 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You clearly don't remember when he was playing. The dude was constantly scrambling out of the pocket when he didn't need to, either running for 1 yard, or running right into a sack. Scared.

He was up against the 30th ranked pass defense and went 14-23 for 108 yards (4.7 YPA) with 0 TD/1 INT, 3 Sacks, and 3 Fumbles in the first three quarters of that playoff game. The Steelers scored 6 points off his turnovers. The only time he ever did anything was when the Bengals D gave him extremely short fields to work with. Keep in mind, that was with arguably the best passing weapons the Bengals have *ever* had, and he did that against the 30th ranked pass defense.

Meanwhile the defense held the 7th overall offense/10th scoring offense to 9 points that weren't off McCarron turnovers in the first three quarters. So go ahead and tell me how he's fearless and prime time games are no match for him, because I will still just recall the fact that he did absolute jack shit for almost the entirety of the game. If he had even just been mediocre, the Bengals would have blown the Steelers out with the way the defense was playing that day.

So I call thorough BS on that.

He still brought them all the way back into the lead.  Not saying he played great, but he righted the ship in the end and should have brought this team the win.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-21-2017, 03:44 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: He still brought them all the way back into the lead.  Not saying he played great, but he righted the ship in the end and should have brought this team the win.

He didn't right anything.

He righted the ship about as much as Rapistburger "won" his first SB. Sure he was the QB, and he was present on the field, but it was the rest of the team carrying him.

You don't get to be awful for over 3 quarters, turning the ball over and giving the other team points, while your D plays it's heart out and then step in when your D makes huge plays and put up a couple short field TDs and be a hero.

He didn't even need to be great all game. If he just merely didn't suck/turn the ball over the first three quarters, the Bengals would have handily won that game. Part of that is likely because no QB has ever succeeded in the postseason under Lewis, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass and suddenly is an unflappable god who shines in all the big moments. Fact is... he went 2-3, and 0-2 in prime time with arguably the best offensive weapons a Bengals team has ever had at once. He only managed to beat Blaine Gabbert and Ryan Mallett's 5-11 teams.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-21-2017, 10:02 AM)Wyche Wrote: They won't get either one of those.  We all know this, nothing to see here.  They not only rode Og, they've been riding Blodine for what, three years?  His coach sucks, and so does he.

The problem with going through the draft is this:  the player HAS to be 100% NFL ready, cause he sure as shit ain't gonna get coached up to be ready with the Merry Band of Tenured Bums having a lifetime contract.  If this was any other staff and "FO", I'd be on board somewhat.....not these clowns. :paul: I mean, Zeitler was specifically recruited to Wisconsin, home of the road grader, to be a mauling run blocker.  He shows up in Cincy to get worse at run blocking.  I have ZERO faith in these imbeciles to coach up anyone, ZE---RO.

We drafted this kid, and then talked about needing to rollover money to sign him a couple of years ago, only to......let him walk because he played his way into a decent contract?  I'm with ya here, cause that's TOTALLY a signature Son of Paul move.  Pocket money, and kick the fans in the junk on the way to deposit it.  Talk about pissing down our collective legs and telling us it's raining!

Blodine should have been replaced after 2015.

I guess that is the ultimate sticking point:  Some are ok with allowing Zeitler to walk rather than pay $10 Million per year, and some are not, but both camps seem to agree that if they don't sign Zeitler to a long-term deal that the monies saved will not be used on a FA that could make a huge impact on this team.

Personally, I don't see how they can avoid going after a veteran CB.  Adam Jones, who should be gone, will be suspended at the very least.  They would have three essential rookies at the five CB starts (Russell, WJII, and a draft pick) and that is assuming they have signed Dre Kirkpatrick.  They don't really know what they have in Dennard, except that he shouldn't be the nickel (slot) CB over Shah.  


Between the savings of Zeitler and Adam Jones, they should be able to extend Whit, Sign Dre, and add a veteran FA CB like Amukamura.  The key word being "should",  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-22-2017, 10:22 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess that is the ultimate sticking point:  Some are ok with allowing Zeitler to walk rather than pay $10 Million per year, and some are not, but both camps seem to agree that if they don't sign Zeitler to a long-term deal that the monies saved will not be used on a FA that could make a huge impact on this team.

Personally, I don't see how they can avoid going after a veteran CB.  Adam Jones, who should be gone, will be suspended at the very least.  They would have three essential rookies at the five CB starts (Russell, WJII, and a draft pick) and that is assuming they have signed Dre Kirkpatrick.  They don't really know what they have in Dennard, except that he shouldn't be the nickel (slot) CB over Shah.  


Between the savings of Zeitler and Adam Jones, they should be able to extend Whit, Sign Dre, and add a veteran FA CB like Amukamura.  The key word being "should",  

You're exactly right on all points.  In no way do I think Z is the end all, be all savior of Cincinnati, I just have a gut feeling his replacement will be worse on an already abysmal right side of this unit.  Like you, I fear they won't use those savings to better the team, rather to better the bottom line.  There are also rumors that Whitworth wants out.  If true, you talk about a cluster.....

I'm afraid they are not going to cut Jones.....the one guy that SHOULD be gone.  To me, if they cut Jones, Maualuga, and Peko, they free up enough dough to make this a moot point.  All three of them should be cut or restructured to the vet minimum at the very least.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-22-2017, 10:49 AM)Wyche Wrote: You're exactly right on all points.  In no way do I think Z is the end all, be all savior of Cincinnati, I just have a gut feeling his replacement will be worse on an already abysmal right side of this unit.  Like you, I fear they won't use those savings to better the team, rather to better the bottom line.  There are also rumors that Whitworth wants out.  If true, you talk about a cluster.....

I'm afraid they are not going to cut Jones.....the one guy that SHOULD be gone.  To me, if they cut Jones, Maualuga, and Peko, they free up enough dough to make this a moot point.  All three of them should be cut or restructured to the vet minimum at the very least.

Yep.  I wouldn't blow out Peko, though, as I think as a rotational player he still provides some value but Jones and Rey M should be money to apply to FA that can positively impact this team.